Better Job: St Johns or UC?

[SubInATub]

Unfortunately, they only count wins.

Yeah exactly, SJU is the better spot. Just need to hire better.

 

[Fishy]

I think they’re probably similar in stature. I would opt for Cincy, if I were to choose.

I think Cincinnati is easier; not a huge spotlight, good recruits in the area, solid school/financial support.

St. John’s a little trickier. You’re in New York, which is good. You’re competing for attention, which is bad. Your fan base is not huge, not loyal and not particularly bright. Every AAU and high school coach thinks they can tell you how to do your job. You play road games at MSG more often than not.

 

[Dooley]

For the record. St. John's averaged 16,497 fans in their five MSG games this year (including the 10k attended Holiday Festival)... That's pretty solid attendance at the mecca

St John's only plays at MSG when they play against an opponent that draws (i.e. brings a fair amount of their own fans to the game). Princeton, Georgetown, Villanova, Providence and Seton Hall. Princeton barely counts as that was part of a festival/tourney.

They NEVER schedule those new midwest small privates or any of the schools located outside of the northeast at MSG. That's because there is small-to-no interest in St John's basketball and those midwestern schools don't bring their fans to NYC for a regular season game. Basically, St John's draws at MSG only when the opponent is buzz worthy.

 

[UConnJim]

I think Cinci and St. John's have similar potential. People have won at both schools in the past which tells me that with commitment and the right coach, you can win at either school. That said, I think St. John's is the slightly better job at the moment due to being in NYC and playing big games at MSG. I think as AAC basketball develops and UConn and Memphis get better, Cinci will probably become the better job as I am more bullish on the AAC than the Big East in the LT.

 

[kibblesnbits]

SJU by a mile. The people that say Cincinnati are only saying that to bash the Big East.

Or they’ve actually been to Carnesecca “Arena.”

 

[don356]

Let's face it, unless you're a billionaire, living in the city is a pain in the a.s. Coaches work crazy hours, and most have families. It's not worth the hassle, nor the expense. I loved visiting there, but not living there.

 

[freescooter]

Again I'd say partially correct in that back then Boston was smaller & though more Catholic I don't think that affiliation prompted people to be fans of BC. Moreso I think the unprecedented success of pro sports teams over the last 20 years has made what was already a pro sports town even more predominately professional sports and college slides evermore into background. Namely the Pats, Celtics & Bruins have all been consistently good and that sucks 95% of oxygen during college hoop season.

I think that is partly correct. And add the growth of pro sports generally. Before Magic and Larry joined the NBA bankruptcy was being openly discussed for example. But the Bruins and the Red Sox were always dominant in Boston. And while it wasn’t being Catholic alone that drew fans to BC, it was that they were everywhere in every parish. I joke with a friend of mine who is a BC alum “Did you know Tommy O’brien When you were at BC?” And he says”Which Tommy O’brien?” The one from Hyde Park. “ Which one?” Pretty much every Catholic Church and every affiliated organization had a bunch of BC guys or parents of BC students. In my little neighborhood growing up there were 7 college grads among my friends fathers. 5 were BC guys. 1 went to Holy Cross and the other one went to the University of Ohio, where he grew up. And 3 of my friends went there. And they played a form of major college football and basketball so they were the local team. My sister and her family live there now. Way more college grads but no BC grads. Some UMASS and various other public Schools, a UConn guy (we compare notes when I visit). Various other colleges represented based on decals on there cars. They would have to be very good to ever get back the fan base they had in the 80s and before.

 

[superjohn]

Lol at all this parish talk, people don't follow BC because they suck. Same thing our here with DePaul.

 

[Pudge]

I think some of that is right and harkens back to the apocryphal story of Calhoun being told by Bobby Knight to get a job at a place that starts with "University of _________".
I wonder in this debate of jobs where the BCU job* fits in. They are in THE conference, but a dramatic afterthought. The conference barely acknowledges that BC plays basketball or football in it. Boston produces players like anywhere else, but they don't choose BC. College athletics is a humongous 2nd to pro sports in Boston, 3 sports fans I spoke to yesterday didn't even know the national championship was Monday, others too late to watch. And for BCU the conference affiliation is actually a negative b/c any player that wants to be relevant in the ACC knows that BC is the least likely place for that to happen. So even if we can't decide whether Cincy or St John's is a better job, we can eliminate conference affiliation as a criteria because we conclude that Boston College University is absolutely a worse job than either.

*they are bringing back their coach, Jim Christian. Partially out of recognizing they are what they are and couldn't find a better coach and partially out of not recognizing that & doing bs things to try and improve. the Globe article link inside the link below from the BC interuption fan site just discusses locker rooms, conditioning and a recruiting budget, a small mention of two of the three elephants in the room: (1) low attendance fan apathy (no indication of how they'll address, (2) mention of travel concerns, again no solutions offered (why isn't this a problem for Cuse?) and (3) no mention of their unsolvable fish out of water status as an irrelevant ACC team.
Martin Jarmond Expands on Jim Christian Decision in Boston Globe

We whine because we aren’t at the upper tier we are used to. It’s Coaching (we got used to a HoF once in a lifetime) and Talent (we still aren’t that far from recent classes). Strive to play in March in meaningful games.

BC’s solution? Nutrition (meantioned 5 times in the two articles) and Locker rooms. Yup throw 6 figures into FF&E. Virginia is instructive. You can compete. But there’s no reason to think BC will ever be a contender in that conference or nationally.

Then. “We’re about postseason basketball. We want to get there.” Yup.

 

[intlzncster]

They NEVER schedule those new midwest small privates or any of the schools located outside of the northeast at MSG. That's because there is small-to-no interest in St John's basketball and those midwestern schools don't bring their fans to NYC for a regular season game. Basically, St John's draws at MSG only when the opponent is buzz worthy.

So effectively, they don't draw at MSG at all. Their opponent does. Not exactly an advantage.

 

[uconnfan68]

Cincinnati....

31 NCAA appearances
6 Final Fours
2 NC's

Have won 11 NCAA tournament games since St. John's won their only one....

last FF for UC in 1992, last for SJU in 1985. Almost a wash.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I think that is partly correct. And add the growth of pro sports generally. Before Magic and Larry joined the NBA bankruptcy was being openly discussed for example. But the Bruins and the Red Sox were always dominant in Boston. And while it wasn’t being Catholic alone that drew fans to BC, it was that they were everywhere in every parish. I joke with a friend of mine who is a BC alum “Did you know Tommy O’brien When you were at BC?” And he says”Which Tommy O’brien?” The one from Hyde Park. “ Which one?” Pretty much every Catholic Church and every affiliated organization had a bunch of BC guys or parents of BC students. In my little neighborhood growing up there were 7 college grads among my friends fathers. 5 were BC guys. 1 went to Holy Cross and the other one went to the University of Ohio, where he grew up. And 3 of my friends went there. And they played a form of major college football and basketball so they were the local team. My sister and her family live there now. Way more college grads but no BC grads. Some UMASS and various other public Schools, a UConn guy (we compare notes when I visit). Various other colleges represented based on decals on there cars. They would have to be very good to ever get back the fan base they had in the 80s and before.

I have lots of friends that are BC grads, moreso than any other school for sure - not a majority by any stretch but the largest alumni base in Boston. What they have in common isn't being catholic, it is being totally apathetic about BC sports. In some cases anti-BC for the alumni $ grabs.

And one of these friends works in recruiting. He & I had an interesting debate a few years ago about the value of educations and he was adamant that a BC degree was worth more than my UConn degree. I disagreed then, but he certainly had a point as it applies to Boston that there is still a massive network of BC folks that will and can help you, and therefore your odds of getting seen with a BC degree are simply better. He is an executive recruiter and believes your salary is actually higher with a BC degree.

Regardless if that's true or not, global point is BC grads are stickier to Boston than other schools' grads because BC has a good network.

I still attend a BC industry event once a year or so, can't say that I do the same for other schools like Harvard and MIT that have better programs in my industry. BC simply has more people and better networking opportunities at their events.

 

[Guapo]

The Boston sports market takes kind of a bizarre pride in not caring about college sports.

 

[Pudge]

The Boston sports market takes kind of a bizarre pride in not caring about college sports.

Led by sportswriters and shock sport jocks on radio.

In a place where ONE key sportswriter cares, it’s a different dynamic. I do think guys like Dick Weiss made caring for CBB cool.

 

[Excalibur]

I have lots of friends that are BC grads, moreso than any other school for sure - not a majority by any stretch but the largest alumni base in Boston. What they have in common isn't being catholic, it is being totally apathetic about BC sports. In some cases anti-BC for the alumni $ grabs.

And one of these friends works in recruiting. He & I had an interesting debate a few years ago about the value of educations and he was adamant that a BC degree was worth more than my UConn degree. I disagreed then, but he certainly had a point as it applies to Boston that there is still a massive network of BC folks that will and can help you, and therefore your odds of getting seen with a BC degree are simply better. He is an executive recruiter and believes your salary is actually higher with a BC degree.
.

If he’s an executive recruiter he knows that by the time you get to the executive level, your degree means nothing.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Nonsense. St Johns hasn’t been a relevant job since the 1990s. And while you aren’t overshadowed by other schools you will always be an afterthought behind the Knicks, Nets, Giants, Jets, Yankees, Mets, Redbulls. You are competing with other comparable programs nearby too if they get their acts together. Seton Hall. Fordham (ok A10 but if they start winning they’ll be the local darlings)

NYC might have been the center of college basketball in 1957 but the center has long ago moved to the large state schools.

Cincinatti is in an area where college basketball is actually appreciated and I know it’s hard to believe for Gotham centric folks from this area, but kids play ball in Cincinatti too. Decent sized city with a fair amount of activity going on.

St Johns ceased being relevant about 25 years ago. It isn’t coming back. Cinci might have a ceiling but so do the Johnnies

It’s as if people have no idea that Cincinnati is on the Kentucky border and isn’t far from Indiana either. The southern suburbs of Cincinnati and its airport are in Kentucky. This is not Idaho or South Dakota. It’s deep in college hoops territory.

It’s easily the better job in my opinion. They can likely pay more than SJ and the cost of living is much, much less.

 

[Dogdeacon]

If he’s an executive recruiter he knows that by the time you get to the executive level, your degree means nothing.

Sure, yet this is about BC's influence in Boston yet lack thereof in Boston sports. Not the precise role or title of my friend 1. I don't know 2. He got out of recruiting a year or so ago and got in the game - I don't know where, he's a guy I play ball and drink beers with not interview about his job description.

Yet also generally yeah, your argument was same as mine, school doesn't matter but for that first job. Might be true or might be why working as a recruiter is next to dental hygienist in jobs I could never do.

 

[UConnNick]

So effectively, they don't draw at MSG at all. Their opponent does. Not exactly an advantage.

Some folks here are either too young to remember, or have forgotten the "Ticketgate" nonsense back when St. John's was actually really good during the Mike Jarvis/Ron Artest days. Jarvis was forced to hoard game tickets for the UCONN games at MSG because we would buy tickets on the secondary market and outnumber the Johnny fans 2 to 1. And it's been all downhill from then for St. John's. That's downhill from having to hold back tickets so as not to be playing away games at MSG even when they were good. That tells you all you need to know.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Led by sportswriters and shock sport jocks on radio.

In a place where ONE key sportswriter cares, it’s a different dynamic. I do think guys like Dick Weiss made caring for CBB cool.

Bob Ryan cares and so did Lobel who was one of the key guys in media for a long time, second/third only to maybe Will McDonough or Ryan. The College sports dog just don't hunt in Boston.

 

[billybud]

BC had a string of eight straight bowl wins from 2000-2007.

Since 2007, they have only had a couple of decent years.

I don't know why they fell off...but like any team, it usually has something to do with QB play.

 

[Guapo]

BC had a string of eight straight bowl wins from 2000-2007.

Since 2007, they have only had a couple of decent years.

I don't know why they fell off...but like any team, it usually has something to do with QB play.

In 2007 (I think, the year with Matt Ryan?) when they got up to #2 and were hosting some other ranked team (Clemson maybe?).

The Bruins were hosting the Red Wings (a regular season, NHL game in November) and that was like a much MUCH bigger deal in Boston than #2 BC football that Saturday.

(Source: me, I was there)

 

[NatiHuskiFan]

I’m biased with Cincinnati and having never been to NYC or Queens. The new arena is spot on! Really UC’s entire campus and surrounding area is amazing compared to 10-15 years ago. The energy from students has been as good as the days of Huggy Bear. I still think whoever is the coach will not be frowned upon for not making it past the first weekend of NCAA tourney. This city lives for the tiniest piece of postseason anything lol

 

[billybud]

In 2007 (I think, the year with Matt Ryan?) when they got up to #2 and were hosting some other ranked team (Clemson maybe?).

The Bruins were hosting the Red Wings (a regular season, NHL game in November) and that was like a much MUCH bigger deal in Boston than #2 BC football that Saturday.

(Source: me, I was there)

...BC played at Clemson that day in 2007.

I don't know about national TV ratings back in 2007...but when ranked BC met Clemson November, 2018....it was a national draw.

ABC’s Saturday Night Football featuring Clemson at Boston College (8 p.m. ET) was college football’s highest-rated prime-time game in week 11, followed by ESPN’s telecast of Auburn at Georgia (7 p.m.). Now, 11 weeks into the season, ABC or ESPN has aired the sport’s highest-rated prime-time game in nine of those weeks and the two networks have combined to air the two highest-rated primetime games in multiple weeks.

ATTENDANCE: 44,500

TV Watchers: 3.9 million

 

[Guapo]

...BC played at Clemson that day in 2007.

I don't know about national TV ratings back in 2007...but when ranked BC met Clemson November, 2018....it was a national draw.

ABC’s Saturday Night Football featuring Clemson at Boston College (8 p.m. ET) was college football’s highest-rated prime-time game in week 11, followed by ESPN’s telecast of Auburn at Georgia (7 p.m.). Now, 11 weeks into the season, ABC or ESPN has aired the sport’s highest-rated prime-time game in nine of those weeks and the two networks have combined to air the two highest-rated primetime games in multiple weeks.

ATTENDANCE: 44,500

Oh Clemson is definitely a national draw.

I reckon very few people tuning in were tuning in to watch BC

Also not sure that it was Clemson they were playing in 2007, but it was someone

 

[billybud]

Oh Clemson is definitely a national draw.

I reckon very few people tuning in were tuning in to watch BC

Well...twice as many viewers as Clemson-Louisville, Clemson-NC State, Clemson-GT, Clemson-Wake, etc

 

[billybud]

Oh..it was indeed Clemson at Clemson that BC played in November of 2007...only ranked team they played that month...

Maybe your memory is a little untrustworthy....heck, I fashion memory around my biases as well.

I have never watched a hockey game on TV or in person...so imagining one as a national draw is beyond my ken.

 

[Guapo]

Oh..it was indeed Clemson at Clemson that BC played in November of 2007...only ranked team they played that month...

Maybe your memory is a little untrustworthy....heck, I fashion memory around my biases as well.

I have never watched a hockey game on TV or in person...so imagining one as a national draw is beyond my ken.

I wasn’t saying it was a national draw, I was just saying that the hockey game was a bigger deal in boston that day than the BC football game.

I know there are yarders on here that live in Boston that can back me up in saying that the Bruins, generally, are a much bigger deal than BC football

 

[Excalibur]

Well...twice as many viewers as Clemson-Louisville, Clemson-NC State, Clemson-GT, Clemson-Wake, etc

All afternoon games. Are you seriously trying to compare a prime time network game to those others?

 

[uconnbill]

SJ. due to location but it has been a crap show for a number of years now. They don't get the talent they used too. This isn't the 80's but still a better job overall

 

[Guapo]

SJ. due to location but it has been a crap show for a number of years now. They don't get the talent they used too. This isn't the 80's but still a better job overall

Everybody keeps saying “location” but it’s not like St Johns is on Broadway