Best College Coaches?

[auror]

Self's tournament resume is pretty interesting. He's got the same thing as Coach K where he ranks extremely poorly as far as Win Expectation against his Seed (390th/415), but quite strongly when when considering Win Expectation against KenPom Rank (even better than K at 15th/415) over last 20 years.

Some of this effect is that it is very difficult for 1 seeds to outperform their expectation. They have to make the F4 to technically exceed their seed expectations, and #1 seeds on average only make the F4 40% of the time, so 60% of the time the seed as a whole fails to meet their expectation (2 seeds make Elite 8 45% of the time, 3 seeds make Sweet 16 52% of the time, 4 seeds Sweet 16 47%, etc. etc. #1 seeds are by far the lowest). Also, at most two 1 seeds per tournament can exceed expectations, and then they can only exceed by 2 wins max, whereas a 7 seed can exceed by 5 wins or whatever in the same run. Basketball is closer to a coin flip for top seeds than it is to a guarantee that a better team should win every time. So by needing to win 4 games just to equal your expectation, your odds are that you are going to lose a 60/40 coinflip at some point.

Self usually overperforms his metrics during the regular season in earning consistently high seeds even when his teams aren't the absolute best, usually by winning a lot of close games due to his stellar coaching (he's been top 100 in KenPom luck every year with the exception of the super young Embiid/Wiggins team and often top 25). Of the 10 1-seeds his teams have gotten, they've been average KenPom rank of 4.9 (median 4), so more often than not undeserving of 1 by efficiency performance. Only twice of the 10 times they got 1 seeds were they KenPom overall #1 or #2. (these are all post-tournament numbers for convenience sake).

The specifics are interesting too. A few times he made the Elite 8 or even Sweet 16 and then just ran into a super strong team. 2016 Nova was a 2 seed in their region, so Kansas in retrospect were underdogs in the Elite 8 despite being KenPom #3 overall. 2013 they had runner up Michigan in their bracket as a 4 seed. This past year they would have been underdogs against us in the Sweet 16 if they made it (they didn't but Self wasn't coaching so not on him). They had to play the #6 KenPom team in the 2nd round against Evan Mobley USC a few years ago as a 3 seed. They were in a 4/5 game against Auburn the tournament before that and were KenPom underdogs as the 4 and Auburn won and went on to upset the 1 and make the F4. 2018 they ran into juggernaut Nova despite making the F4 after entering the tournament KenPom #10 overall. There's a lot of that in their tournament history.

 

[auror]

He gets great talent…..anyone can win in the regular season w great talent.

No they can't. There are tons of examples of this, but just look at Kentucky the last few years. Duke has won 1 ACC regular season championship in the last 13 years.

 

[BigTenFan]

Feel like I haven’t seen or heard of anything from Bobby Knight in ages.

Knight is not in good health
IU legend who ran a clean program and kids graduated - I look at Calhoun and Knight as two of the best ever

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

I think if you took a poll of D1 coaches Self would be the overwhelming pick. In fact I think I read something like that last season.

Also Kelvin Sampson got in trouble for something that would be seen as quaint in 2023. If you’re going to hold that against him you might as well remember that Jay Wright put Villanova on NCAA probation back in the day too.

 

[seeya27]

Bill Self is the most consistent -- Kansas won like 12 conference regular season championships in a row, which is insane -- and also won a championship last year (2 in 15 years isn't UConn level, but it's pretty good).

Self has 2 NCs in 20 years. Just putting a fine point on it.

His wins and conf titles are impressive. He underachieves in the NCAAT IMO.

 

[BGesus4]

No they can't. There are tons of examples of this, but just look at Kentucky the last few years. Duke has won 1 ACC regular season championship in the last 13 years.

And if you look at a side of who does the best job with recruits at outperforming expected nba earnings based on recruiting rank, it’s Kansas under Self. I ran the numbers the season before last, hoping UConn under Calhoun would come out as the best. Self definitely gets top players on a regular basis but if you look at the guys at Kansas who ended up as college studs and earned good nba money, a bunch of them were ranked out of high school where you wouldn’t project them to ever sniff an nba contract. I had been so aware of the flop that cliff Alexander was as the #2 recruit overall that I was pretty surprised how clearly the best Kansas was. Coincidentally, as we all know, they cut down the nets later that year with their best players, who are making nba money now, as 3 and 4 star guys—in Braun and Wilson.

Let me be clear, I am not a fan of self or that dead animal he wears on his head, but the numbers don’t lie.

 

[Huskyforlife]

I’d go with Self. He’ll probably retire with 3 championships, a crazy number of conference championships, and total wins. He wasn’t grandfathered into a blue blood either, he proved he was elite at smaller schools first.

 

[uconngb]

Self's tournament resume is pretty interesting. He's got the same thing as Coach K where he ranks extremely poorly as far as Win Expectation against his Seed (390th/415), but quite strongly when when considering Win Expectation against KenPom Rank (even better than K at 15th/415) over last 20 years.

Some of this effect is that it is very difficult for 1 seeds to outperform their expectation. They have to make the F4 to technically exceed their seed expectations, and #1 seeds on average only make the F4 40% of the time, so 60% of the time the seed as a whole fails to meet their expectation (2 seeds make Elite 8 45% of the time, 3 seeds make Sweet 16 52% of the time, 4 seeds Sweet 16 47%, etc. etc. #1 seeds are by far the lowest). Also, at most two 1 seeds per tournament can exceed expectations, and then they can only exceed by 2 wins max, whereas a 7 seed can exceed by 5 wins or whatever in the same run. Basketball is closer to a coin flip for top seeds than it is to a guarantee that a better team should win every time. So by needing to win 4 games just to equal your expectation, your odds are that you are going to lose a 60/40 coinflip at some point.

Self usually overperforms his metrics during the regular season in earning consistently high seeds even when his teams aren't the absolute best, usually by winning a lot of close games due to his stellar coaching (he's been top 100 in KenPom luck every year with the exception of the super young Embiid/Wiggins team and often top 25). Of the 10 1-seeds his teams have gotten, they've been average KenPom rank of 4.9 (median 4), so more often than not undeserving of 1 by efficiency performance. Only twice of the 10 times they got 1 seeds were they KenPom overall #1 or #2. (these are all post-tournament numbers for convenience sake).

The specifics are interesting too. A few times he made the Elite 8 or even Sweet 16 and then just ran into a super strong team. 2016 Nova was a 2 seed in their region, so Kansas in retrospect were underdogs in the Elite 8 despite being KenPom #3 overall. 2013 they had runner up Michigan in their bracket as a 4 seed. This past year they would have been underdogs against us in the Sweet 16 if they made it (they didn't but Self wasn't coaching so not on him). They had to play the #6 KenPom team in the 2nd round against Evan Mobley USC a few years ago as a 3 seed. They were in a 4/5 game against Auburn the tournament before that and were KenPom underdogs as the 4 and Auburn won and went on to upset the 1 and make the F4. 2018 they ran into juggernaut Nova despite making the F4 after entering the tournament KenPom #10 overall. There's a lot of that in their tournament history.

However you wanna look at it..,,,10 1 seeds and 19 seeds of no worse than 4: 4 final fours ain’t getting it done in March in anyone’s book.

 

[amishboy]

UConn has the best head coach and coaching staff in the game today. Everyone else is trying to catch up. Just an incredibly lame list of coaches to vote for in this thread.

Okay, they were the first names I came up with, so if the list is lame, that’s on me. So let me say it again, who else currently coaching should be on the list?

 

[metsfan2323]

Okay, they were the first names I came up with, so if the list is lame, that’s on me. So let me say it again, who else currently coaching should be on the list?

Hurley

God forbid Hurley were to leave UConn would do well with any of these coaches:

Shaka
McDermott
Nate Oats
Larranaga (yes he is old but your list is a bunch of old guys)
Tony Bennett
Cronin

Not list worthy, but I also think Bobby Hurley will eventually find his stride and obviously the Florida Atlantic coach is someone to keep an eye on.

 

[amishboy]

Hurley

God forbid Hurley were to leave UConn would do well with any of these coaches:

Shaka
McDermott
Nate Oats
Larranaga (yes he is old but your list is a bunch of old guys)
Tony Bennett
Cronin

Not list worthy, but I also think Bobby Hurley will eventually find his stride and obviously the Florida Atlantic coach is someone to keep an eye on.

Thanks, these are all excellent names. When I thought of the more “obvious” choices, I guess I automatically went for guys who’d won an NC. By contrast, most (all?) of the guys you listed are kinda “pre-Hurley,” i.e., they consistently win a lot of games, get the max from their rosters, but no brass ring yet.

[and, hell no, I’m too optimistic to be thinking about DH’s successor; I want him to get us at least one more NC!]

 

[YearoftheHusky]

I don’t like the guy or what he stands for, but it’s Self if we are talking resume. He wins… a lot. Some of y’all are making it seem like winning a championship is easy.

That said, I’d take Sampson from that group if I had to win one game.

 

[seeya27]

I don’t like the guy or what he stands for, but it’s Self if we are talking resume. He wins… a lot. Some of y’all are making it seem like winning a championship is easy.

That said, I’d take Sampson from that group if I had to win one game.

Championships are ridiculously hard. That is what makes the accomplishments of Calhoun, K, and Wright so impressive.

Now, Self has 2 titles as well. But literally "no one", not even Cal, comes into the tournament with higher-ranked teams and more talent -- and then loses more consistently -- than Self. He has lost as a 1 or 2 almost every year for 20 years. Half the time he doesn't get out of the round of 32.

It's as weird an anomaly as UConn going 5/5 in natty games.

In his 2nd title he did win with lesser talent, but that has been the exception. Most times he has a terrific team that goes down in flames like our '06 team.

 

[husky429]

Better question is ATG.

My list goes:

Calhoun








Everyone else

 

[mauconnfan]

Better question is ATG.

My list goes:

Calhoun


Bingo 429!!!!





Everyone else

 

[YearoftheHusky]

Championships are ridiculously hard. That is what makes the accomplishments of Calhoun, K, and Wright so impressive.

Now, Self has 2 titles as well. But literally "no one", not even Cal, comes into the tournament with higher-ranked teams and more talent -- and then loses more consistently -- than Self. He has lost as a 1 or 2 almost every year for 20 years. Half the time he doesn't get out of the round of 32.

It's as weird an anomaly as UConn going 5/5 in natty games.

In his 2nd title he did win with lesser talent, but that has been the exception. Most times he has a terrific team that goes down in flames like our '06 team.

Coming into the tourney as a 1 or 2 for 20 years also means he can coach.

 

[mauconnfan]

Coming into the tourney as a 1 or 2 for 20 years also means he can coach.

No doubt he can coach don’t think there’s any denying that. But is he as good as the others or does the fact he as cheating to get the best players for 20 years aid in his win total?

Coming into the tourney 1 or 2 also means you have really good players, many times better than the teams you are playing so maybe you should win more often I’m thinking?

 

[navery12]

Championships are ridiculously hard. That is what makes the accomplishments of Calhoun, K, and Wright so impressive.

Now, Self has 2 titles as well. But literally "no one", not even Cal, comes into the tournament with higher-ranked teams and more talent -- and then loses more consistently -- than Self. He has lost as a 1 or 2 almost every year for 20 years. Half the time he doesn't get out of the round of 32.

It's as weird an anomaly as UConn going 5/5 in natty games.

In his 2nd title he did win with lesser talent, but that has been the exception. Most times he has a terrific team that goes down in flames like our '06 team.

You're making everyone else's point here. You're exactly right that nobody, not even Cal, comes into March as a high seed as consistently as Bill Self. He does it almost every year. And that's exactly why he's the answer here for best coach.

You're completely missing just how hard it is to win in March in a single elimination tournament. 2 titles in 20 years is very impressive and gets overlooked by UConn fans because we've had a better run. The reasons why Self seemingly loses so often as a top seed is because he has Kansas as a top seed every single year. Knocking him for that is bizarre.

It seems for most people here they'd like Self a lot more if he had a ton of disappointing regular seasons and all those tournament losses came as a 6 or 7 seed instead of a 1 or 2 seed. It makes as much sense as the Brady/Montana or Jordan/LeBron debates where people view an undefeated finals record as some sort of holy grail

 

[Luna]

Better question is ATG.

My list goes:

Calhoun








Everyone else

I got mixed feelings about Calhoun.. great coach. but i went to a lot of games while he was coach and I didn’t like how he treated his players at those games

 

[husky429]

I got mixed feelings about Calhoun.. great coach. but i went to a lot of games while he was coach and I didn’t like how he treated his players at those games

It's wild a UConn fan would be ambivalent about Calhoun. We'd be playing like UMass without him--a boring program no one cares about.

The question isn't who was the nicest guy, it's who is the best coach. Calhoun is the best college basketball coach ever, bar none.

I'm sure there are plenty of players who didn't like Jim. I know one personally who despises the man. At the end of the day nice doesn't always win games.

 

[pj]

Nah don’t agree. Best rosters year after year, cheating to get those rosters and still not winning a ton of BIG games in the dance field? Underachiever for me, I’m good and respect other opinions but give JC those rosters every year he wouldve had 10 visits to FFs and 2-3 (5-6 easy)more under his name. And he’s a great coach.

Kansas's rosters haven't compared to Kentucky's and Duke's, or even UNC's.

I can see this complaint about Calipari but not about Self.

I'd take Hurley though.

 

[seeya27]

You're making everyone else's point here. You're exactly right that nobody, not even Cal, comes into March as a high seed as consistently as Bill Self. He does it almost every year. And that's exactly why he's the answer here for best coach.

You're completely missing just how hard it is to win in March in a single elimination tournament. 2 titles in 20 years is very impressive and gets overlooked by UConn fans because we've had a better run. The reasons why Self seemingly loses so often as a top seed is because he has Kansas as a top seed every single year. Knocking him for that is bizarre.

It seems for most people here they'd like Self a lot more if he had a ton of disappointing regular seasons and all those tournament losses came as a 6 or 7 seed instead of a 1 or 2 seed. It makes as much sense as the Brady/Montana or Jordan/LeBron debates where people view an undefeated finals record as some sort of holy grail

My opening sentence acknowledges how tough it is to win a NC. No one disputes how good a regular reason coach he is. Regular szn wins is what he excels in.

But given how good his teams are, one could reasonably expect more NC titles. If, as the KU fans state often, he is the GOAT...then winning natl titles is part of the gig. When UConn teams get a 1 or 2 seed they usually (although not always) win or give a damn close effort. Self loses in the round of 32 nearly 1/2 the time.

Sorry but that is not GOAT level. It is very good,.but not elitely great. Championships bc they are so hard are the differentiator.
All just IMO.

 

[seeya27]

Coming into the tourney as a 1 or 2 for 20 years also means he can coach.

Agreed but it doesn't make him one of the great coaches of all time,.either.

 

[navery12]

But given how good his teams are, one could reasonably expect more NC titles.

Strong disagree here, I don't think that is even remotely reasonable. Even if you take the all time GOATs; Calhoun won 3 titles in 26 years at UConn, Coach K won 5 in 42 years at Duke, Jay Wright won 2 in 21 years at Villanova.

If Self winning 2 in 20 years is an indication of poor March performance then every one of those coaches falls in that category too. And hint, none of those guys are remotely close to poor March performers

 

[seeya27]

Self's tournament resume is pretty interesting. He's got the same thing as Coach K where he ranks extremely poorly as far as Win Expectation against his Seed (390th/415), but quite strongly when when considering Win Expectation against KenPom Rank (even better than K at 15th/415) over last 20 years.

Some of this effect is that it is very difficult for 1 seeds to outperform their expectation. They have to make the F4 to technically exceed their seed expectations, and #1 seeds on average only make the F4 40% of the time, so 60% of the time the seed as a whole fails to meet their expectation (2 seeds make Elite 8 45% of the time, 3 seeds make Sweet 16 52% of the time, 4 seeds Sweet 16 47%, etc. etc. #1 seeds are by far the lowest). Also, at most two 1 seeds per tournament can exceed expectations, and then they can only exceed by 2 wins max, whereas a 7 seed can exceed by 5 wins or whatever in the same run. Basketball is closer to a coin flip for top seeds than it is to a guarantee that a better team should win every time. So by needing to win 4 games just to equal your expectation, your odds are that you are going to lose a 60/40 coinflip at some point.

Self usually overperforms his metrics during the regular season in earning consistently high seeds even when his teams aren't the absolute best, usually by winning a lot of close games due to his stellar coaching (he's been top 100 in KenPom luck every year with the exception of the super young Embiid/Wiggins team and often top 25). Of the 10 1-seeds his teams have gotten, they've been average KenPom rank of 4.9 (median 4), so more often than not undeserving of 1 by efficiency performance. Only twice of the 10 times they got 1 seeds were they KenPom overall #1 or #2. (these are all post-tournament numbers for convenience sake).

The specifics are interesting too. A few times he made the Elite 8 or even Sweet 16 and then just ran into a super strong team. 2016 Nova was a 2 seed in their region, so Kansas in retrospect were underdogs in the Elite 8 despite being KenPom #3 overall. 2013 they had runner up Michigan in their bracket as a 4 seed. This past year they would have been underdogs against us in the Sweet 16 if they made it (they didn't but Self wasn't coaching so not on him). They had to play the #6 KenPom team in the 2nd round against Evan Mobley USC a few years ago as a 3 seed. They were in a 4/5 game against Auburn the tournament before that and were KenPom underdogs as the 4 and Auburn won and went on to upset the 1 and make the F4. 2018 they ran into juggernaut Nova despite making the F4 after entering the tournament KenPom #10 overall. There's a lot of that in their tournament history.

Not disputing your well-researched position in any way. But in the same 20 years he has coached Kansas, UConn has won 4 NCs - double that of KU.

In essence, UConn could have been a 1 seed for all 4 of those Nattys and exceeded Seed expectation and KenPom expectation. But we were a 2, 3,7, and.4 seed instead.

Self wins but not nearly as often in the NCAAT. Given the way we know he has cheated the system, he gets no tears from me.