Best College Coaches?

[YearoftheHusky]

I don’t like the guy or what he stands for, but it’s Self if we are talking resume. He wins… a lot. Some of y’all are making it seem like winning a championship is easy.

That said, I’d take Sampson from that group if I had to win one game.

 

[seeya27]

I don’t like the guy or what he stands for, but it’s Self if we are talking resume. He wins… a lot. Some of y’all are making it seem like winning a championship is easy.

That said, I’d take Sampson from that group if I had to win one game.

Championships are ridiculously hard. That is what makes the accomplishments of Calhoun, K, and Wright so impressive.

Now, Self has 2 titles as well. But literally "no one", not even Cal, comes into the tournament with higher-ranked teams and more talent -- and then loses more consistently -- than Self. He has lost as a 1 or 2 almost every year for 20 years. Half the time he doesn't get out of the round of 32.

It's as weird an anomaly as UConn going 5/5 in natty games.

In his 2nd title he did win with lesser talent, but that has been the exception. Most times he has a terrific team that goes down in flames like our '06 team.

 

[husky429]

Better question is ATG.

My list goes:

Calhoun








Everyone else

 

[mauconnfan]

Better question is ATG.

My list goes:

Calhoun


Bingo 429!!!!





Everyone else

 

[YearoftheHusky]

Championships are ridiculously hard. That is what makes the accomplishments of Calhoun, K, and Wright so impressive.

Now, Self has 2 titles as well. But literally "no one", not even Cal, comes into the tournament with higher-ranked teams and more talent -- and then loses more consistently -- than Self. He has lost as a 1 or 2 almost every year for 20 years. Half the time he doesn't get out of the round of 32.

It's as weird an anomaly as UConn going 5/5 in natty games.

In his 2nd title he did win with lesser talent, but that has been the exception. Most times he has a terrific team that goes down in flames like our '06 team.

Coming into the tourney as a 1 or 2 for 20 years also means he can coach.

 

[mauconnfan]

Coming into the tourney as a 1 or 2 for 20 years also means he can coach.

No doubt he can coach don’t think there’s any denying that. But is he as good as the others or does the fact he as cheating to get the best players for 20 years aid in his win total?

Coming into the tourney 1 or 2 also means you have really good players, many times better than the teams you are playing so maybe you should win more often I’m thinking?

 

[navery12]

Championships are ridiculously hard. That is what makes the accomplishments of Calhoun, K, and Wright so impressive.

Now, Self has 2 titles as well. But literally "no one", not even Cal, comes into the tournament with higher-ranked teams and more talent -- and then loses more consistently -- than Self. He has lost as a 1 or 2 almost every year for 20 years. Half the time he doesn't get out of the round of 32.

It's as weird an anomaly as UConn going 5/5 in natty games.

In his 2nd title he did win with lesser talent, but that has been the exception. Most times he has a terrific team that goes down in flames like our '06 team.

You're making everyone else's point here. You're exactly right that nobody, not even Cal, comes into March as a high seed as consistently as Bill Self. He does it almost every year. And that's exactly why he's the answer here for best coach.

You're completely missing just how hard it is to win in March in a single elimination tournament. 2 titles in 20 years is very impressive and gets overlooked by UConn fans because we've had a better run. The reasons why Self seemingly loses so often as a top seed is because he has Kansas as a top seed every single year. Knocking him for that is bizarre.

It seems for most people here they'd like Self a lot more if he had a ton of disappointing regular seasons and all those tournament losses came as a 6 or 7 seed instead of a 1 or 2 seed. It makes as much sense as the Brady/Montana or Jordan/LeBron debates where people view an undefeated finals record as some sort of holy grail

 

[Sole]

Better question is ATG.

My list goes:

Calhoun








Everyone else

I got mixed feelings about Calhoun.. great coach. but i went to a lot of games while he was coach and I didn’t like how he treated his players at those games

 

[husky429]

I got mixed feelings about Calhoun.. great coach. but i went to a lot of games while he was coach and I didn’t like how he treated his players at those games

It's wild a UConn fan would be ambivalent about Calhoun. We'd be playing like UMass without him--a boring program no one cares about.

The question isn't who was the nicest guy, it's who is the best coach. Calhoun is the best college basketball coach ever, bar none.

I'm sure there are plenty of players who didn't like Jim. I know one personally who despises the man. At the end of the day nice doesn't always win games.

 

[pj]

Nah don’t agree. Best rosters year after year, cheating to get those rosters and still not winning a ton of BIG games in the dance field? Underachiever for me, I’m good and respect other opinions but give JC those rosters every year he wouldve had 10 visits to and 2-3 (5-6 easy)more under his name. And he’s a great coach.

Kansas's rosters haven't compared to Kentucky's and Duke's, or even UNC's.

I can see this complaint about Calipari but not about Self.

I'd take Hurley though.

 

[seeya27]

You're making everyone else's point here. You're exactly right that nobody, not even Cal, comes into March as a high seed as consistently as Bill Self. He does it almost every year. And that's exactly why he's the answer here for best coach.

You're completely missing just how hard it is to win in March in a single elimination tournament. 2 titles in 20 years is very impressive and gets overlooked by UConn fans because we've had a better run. The reasons why Self seemingly loses so often as a top seed is because he has Kansas as a top seed every single year. Knocking him for that is bizarre.

It seems for most people here they'd like Self a lot more if he had a ton of disappointing regular seasons and all those tournament losses came as a 6 or 7 seed instead of a 1 or 2 seed. It makes as much sense as the Brady/Montana or Jordan/LeBron debates where people view an undefeated finals record as some sort of holy grail

My opening sentence acknowledges how tough it is to win a NC. No one disputes how good a regular reason coach he is. Regular szn wins is what he excels in.

But given how good his teams are, one could reasonably expect more NC titles. If, as the KU fans state often, he is the GOAT...then winning natl titles is part of the gig. When UConn teams get a 1 or 2 seed they usually (although not always) win or give a damn close effort. Self loses in the round of 32 nearly 1/2 the time.

Sorry but that is not GOAT level. It is very good,.but not elitely great. Championships bc they are so hard are the differentiator.
All just IMO.

 

[seeya27]

Coming into the tourney as a 1 or 2 for 20 years also means he can coach.

Agreed but it doesn't make him one of the great coaches of all time,.either.

 

[navery12]

But given how good his teams are, one could reasonably expect more NC titles.

Strong disagree here, I don't think that is even remotely reasonable. Even if you take the all time GOATs; Calhoun won 3 titles in 26 years at UConn, Coach K won 5 in 42 years at Duke, Jay Wright won 2 in 21 years at Villanova.

If Self winning 2 in 20 years is an indication of poor March performance then every one of those coaches falls in that category too. And hint, none of those guys are remotely close to poor March performers

 

[seeya27]

Self's tournament resume is pretty interesting. He's got the same thing as Coach K where he ranks extremely poorly as far as Win Expectation against his Seed (390th/415), but quite strongly when when considering Win Expectation against KenPom Rank (even better than K at 15th/415) over last 20 years.

Some of this effect is that it is very difficult for 1 seeds to outperform their expectation. They have to make the F4 to technically exceed their seed expectations, and #1 seeds on average only make the F4 40% of the time, so 60% of the time the seed as a whole fails to meet their expectation (2 seeds make Elite 8 45% of the time, 3 seeds make Sweet 16 52% of the time, 4 seeds Sweet 16 47%, etc. etc. #1 seeds are by far the lowest). Also, at most two 1 seeds per tournament can exceed expectations, and then they can only exceed by 2 wins max, whereas a 7 seed can exceed by 5 wins or whatever in the same run. Basketball is closer to a coin flip for top seeds than it is to a guarantee that a better team should win every time. So by needing to win 4 games just to equal your expectation, your odds are that you are going to lose a 60/40 coinflip at some point.

Self usually overperforms his metrics during the regular season in earning consistently high seeds even when his teams aren't the absolute best, usually by winning a lot of close games due to his stellar coaching (he's been top 100 in KenPom luck every year with the exception of the super young Embiid/Wiggins team and often top 25). Of the 10 1-seeds his teams have gotten, they've been average KenPom rank of 4.9 (median 4), so more often than not undeserving of 1 by efficiency performance. Only twice of the 10 times they got 1 seeds were they KenPom overall #1 or #2. (these are all post-tournament numbers for convenience sake).

The specifics are interesting too. A few times he made the Elite 8 or even Sweet 16 and then just ran into a super strong team. 2016 Nova was a 2 seed in their region, so Kansas in retrospect were underdogs in the Elite 8 despite being KenPom #3 overall. 2013 they had runner up Michigan in their bracket as a 4 seed. This past year they would have been underdogs against us in the Sweet 16 if they made it (they didn't but Self wasn't coaching so not on him). They had to play the #6 KenPom team in the 2nd round against Evan Mobley USC a few years ago as a 3 seed. They were in a 4/5 game against Auburn the tournament before that and were KenPom underdogs as the 4 and Auburn won and went on to upset the 1 and make the F4. 2018 they ran into juggernaut Nova despite making the F4 after entering the tournament KenPom #10 overall. There's a lot of that in their tournament history.

Not disputing your well-researched position in any way. But in the same 20 years he has coached Kansas, UConn has won 4 NCs - double that of KU.

In essence, UConn could have been a 1 seed for all 4 of those Nattys and exceeded Seed expectation and KenPom expectation. But we were a 2, 3,7, and.4 seed instead.

Self wins but not nearly as often in the NCAAT. Given the way we know he has cheated the system, he gets no tears from me.

 

[seeya27]

You can't compare Calhoun's early years (his first 5) to Self's first 5 years at KU. The programs were at entirely different places.

Calhoun's program -- from 1990-2011 - was built from scratch. Self on the other hand had an established powerhouse from the get-go.

 

[Deleted at users request]

Not disputing your well-researched position in any way. But in the same 20 years he has coached Kansas, UConn has won 4 NCs - double that of KU.

In essence, UConn could have been a 1 seed for all 4 of those Nattys and exceeded Seed expectation and KenPom expectation. But we were a 2, 3,7, and.4 seed instead.

Self wins but not nearly as often in the NCAAT. Given the way we know he has cheated the system, he gets no tears from me.

Comparing any program to us is just setting them up to fail.

I think Izzo only has one championship period as another HOF coach.

 

[REB1094]

Friendly reminder that there are 6 head coaches in the history of college basketball with more than 2 rings

3 of those 6 are from 30+ years ago

 

[HuskyHawk]

Strong disagree here, I don't think that is even remotely reasonable. Even if you take the all time GOATs; Calhoun won 3 titles in 26 years at UConn, Coach K won 5 in 42 years at Duke, Jay Wright won 2 in 21 years at Villanova.

If Self winning 2 in 20 years is an indication of poor March performance then every one of those coaches falls in that category too. And hint, none of those guys are remotely close to poor March performers

Agreed. There are 15 programs that have won multiple titles, several not in the modern era (San Francisco, OK State, Cinci). So if a dozen programs have done it, and you've done it as a coach, that's impressive.

I know I tend to defend Self, but people are sometimes a bit lazy describing the "talent" KU has. The team 2 years ago had zero 5 stars. Christian Braun was a local 3 star and now plays for the Nuggets. KU gets an occasional 5 star, but mostly has 4 and 3 star guys. I'd argue that's why they win. Same formula UConn has, talented guys with experience over trying to win with multiple one and done guys. Scheyer has taken notice and said publicly that Duke is going to try to build that way again. Hard to win with so many freshmen.

 

[pj]

But in the same 20 years he has coached Kansas, UConn has won 4 NCs - double that of KU.

You're comparing Self's Kansas to the one of the greatest positive outliers in performance in all of sports.

We can't identify winning national championships with greatness in coaching, otherwise we'd have to make Kevin Ollie one of the great all-time coaches, and he had trouble even getting a coaching job, congrats to Kevin for his gig with the Nets.

 

[BigTenFan]

Agreed. There are 15 programs that have won multiple titles, several not in the modern era (San Francisco, OK State, Cinci). So if a dozen programs have done it, and you've done it as a coach, that's impressive.

I know I tend to defend Self, but people are sometimes a bit lazy describing the "talent" KU has. The team 2 years ago had zero 5 stars. Christian Braun was a local 3 star and now plays for the Nuggets. KU gets an occasional 5 star, but mostly has 4 and 3 star guys. I'd argue that's why they win. Same formula UConn has, talented guys with experience over trying to win with multiple one and done guys. Scheyer has taken notice and said publicly that Duke is going to try to build that way again. Hard to win with so many freshmen.

I think it's harder to win now more than ever due to transfer portal and one and done
Wooden won with student athletes who stayed 4 years. To win back to backs will be exceedingly rare. I believe last team to do it was Florida

 

[HuskyHawk]

You're comparing Self's Kansas to the one of the greatest positive outliers in performance in all of sports.

We can't identify winning national championships with greatness in coaching, otherwise we'd have to make Kevin Ollie one of the great all-time coaches, and he had trouble even getting a coaching job, congrats to Kevin for his gig with the Nets.

You'd also have to conclude that Mark Few and Brad Stevens aren't any good. National Championships require a lot of good fortune. Matchups, injuries, everything has to go right.

I'm still amazed that KU hasn't missed the tournament since before I attended (1989).

 

[August_West]

Kim English. It is just as likely or even possible he is the best coach in the country.

 

[August_West]

You'd also have to conclude that Mark Few and Brad Stevens aren't any good. National Championships require a lot of good fortune. Matchups, injuries, everything has to go right.

I'm still amazed that KU hasn't missed the tournament since before I attended (1989).

Some may say that maybe it isn't about good fortune, maybe it is about Karma. Maybe Karma is the reason Calipari and Self underachieve when all the chips are down.

 

[McLovin]

I think Bill Self is a big cheater. And I love to make fun of Kansas fans on Twitter about UConn having more (real) championships.

But it’s silly to argue that he’s not the best (or at least second best, but behind who?) active coach today.

Yes titles are a factor, but if you look at the rate other great modern era coaches win National Titles at power programs (Calhoun 1 every 8.67 years / K 1 every 8.4 years / Wright 1 every 10.5 years / Williams 1 every 11.67 years) Self is right there with 1 every 11.5 years.

There is a good chance he gets a 3rd soon.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Some may say that maybe it isn't about good fortune, maybe it is about Karma. Maybe Karma is the reason Calipari and Self underachieve when all the chips are down.

There's a reason some people call our titles lucky. Going to only 6 final fours and losing a single game is just amazing. Karma definitely favors the Huskies in the same way it hates the Buffalo Bills. Who else has 6 ? Arkansas, Nova, Syracuse, Michigan, Houston. North Carolina has 21. Our record in those games is astonishing.

 

[Cagey_Tee]

How about this for a Mount Rushmore of living college coaches—-Coach K, Roy Williams, Jim Calhoun, and Bobby Knight?

I think Jay Wright belongs in the conversation - perhaps ahead of Knight.

 

[August_West]

I think Jay Wright belongs in the conversation - perhaps ahead of Knight.

Bobby Knight is insanely overrated, and I rate him higher than he should be just for beating Syracuse in 87. But lets face it, a broom could knock Boeheim out of a game that counts.

 

[EBonz30]

You're making everyone else's point here. You're exactly right that nobody, not even Cal, comes into March as a high seed as consistently as Bill Self. He does it almost every year. And that's exactly why he's the answer here for best coach.

You're completely missing just how hard it is to win in March in a single elimination tournament. 2 titles in 20 years is very impressive and gets overlooked by UConn fans because we've had a better run. The reasons why Self seemingly loses so often as a top seed is because he has Kansas as a top seed every single year. Knocking him for that is bizarre.

It seems for most people here they'd like Self a lot more if he had a ton of disappointing regular seasons and all those tournament losses came as a 6 or 7 seed instead of a 1 or 2 seed. It makes as much sense as the Brady/Montana or Jordan/LeBron debates where people view an undefeated finals record as some sort of holy grail

We can go on & on about the stats, wins, bad losses, etc. I just don’t think Self is a great in game coach, great program builder/coach yes, but when I am choosing the best coach in the nation I am not going to pick a coach who I don’t think is a top 10 in game coach in the nation. Also, his first title is a joke- no way no chance Memphis losses that game, but they had a worse in game coach coaching.

Give me the coach who his a master in game & solid program builder like Pitino- go check the second half of Louisville/Michigan. Give me Calhoun- a masterful in game coach & wonderful program builder.

Also, love Wright & Knight as well. Way too much energy & script on this thread about Self- pretty shocking to me how much love he is getting.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

We can go on & on about the stats, wins, bad losses, etc. I just don’t think Self is a great in game coach, great program builder/coach yes, but when I am choosing the best coach in the nation I am not going to pick a coach who I don’t think is a top 10 in game coach in the nation. Also, his first title is a joke- no way no chance Memphis losses that game, but they had a worse in game coach coaching.

Give me the coach who his a master in game & solid program builder like Pitino- go check the second half of Louisville/Michigan. Give me Calhoun- a masterful in game coach & wonderful program builder.

Also, love Wright & Knight as well. Way too much energy & script on this thread about Self- pretty shocking to me how much love he is getting.

The best big-game coach in college hoops? Coaches overwhelmingly say it's one man

“He’ll beat you from tip to finish and can work the game and change momentum when it’s not going his way.”

theathletic.com

 

[August_West]

The best big-game coach in college hoops? Coaches overwhelmingly say it's one man

“He’ll beat you from tip to finish and can work the game and change momentum when it’s not going his way.”

theathletic.com