Baylor Recruiting Violations

[Kibitzer]

I am never one to buy into the "Everyone's doing it [which makes it okay]" or the related "They [alone of a host of miscreants] just got caught." Jails and prisons are populated by people who were deemed guilty of some wrongdoing. The fact that some/many wrongdoers are still walking the streets does not mitigate the guilt of those who are incarcerated.

I read this and think of some guy who embezzled a couple million bucks and got locked up for a year [counting the 365 days until he can retrieve the dough and enjoy spending it]. If the tradeoff for deliberately breaking NCAA rules to secure a once-in-a-lifetime player like Griner is two unused scholarships and July at the beach instead of beating the recruiting bushes, the decision for Mulkey to stalk the Griners is a no-brainer. Think four years of Griner for a slap on the wrist.

The other thought that comes to mind is the old adage that the higher you climb up the flagpole, the more of your butt gets exposed.

 

[pinotbear]

I think NCAA rules that regulate/limit coaches' contact with recruits are dumb. First, it requires that too much money, time and energy is spent on compliance employees whose job it is to count and monitor phone calls and text messages. Such a waste. Second, although this is a bigger issue in the men's game than the women's, if coaches are prohibited from contacting recruits during certain months, that vacuum will be filled by others whose influence may be far worse. The job of regulating the amount of contact between coaches and recruits belongs with the recruits and their parents/guardians, not the NCAA.

Much of what you say here may be true, but that's not the issue here. The issue here is, with the rules being what they are, and with Baylor, its' coaches, and its' athletic dept. knowing what they are, there were still over 1,000 violations. A rule or a law may be dumb, but that doesn't mean deliberately violating it doesn't make you culpable.

If you don't like a rule, change it. If you ignore it, you're asking for trouble.

 

[UConnCat]

Much of what you say here may be true, but that's not the issue here. The issue here is, with the rules being what they are, and with Baylor, its' coaches, and its' athletic dept. knowing what they are, there were still over 1,000 violations. A rule or a law may be dumb, but that doesn't mean deliberately violating it doesn't make you culpable.

If you don't like a rule, change it. If you ignore it, you're asking for trouble.

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that the NCAA look the other way or not enforce its rules. If the rules were violated, as they were in this situation, the violators should be punished.

I was simply responding to the point that limiting contact between coaches and players is a good idea. It may or may not be, but I don't think that decision should be made by the NCAA. If a recruit values the number of messages and/or calls she receives from a coaching staff, then let her get 'em. If not, then let the recruit and her family place limits on how often coaches can contact her and when. Spending time and money on complying with these rules is ridiculous.

 

[ThisJustIn]

Remembering that the recruiting rules are written with the input of college coaches (who are often motivated by "keeping up with the Jones'" or "keeping the Jones' down" I think it's probably true that the majority of rules about contact and such are aimed (in wbball) at the top 50 recruits. Expand that number for football.

Many parents are NOT involved. Many AAU/HS coaches are... or aren't involved. Kids are NOT going to tell Geno, please stop texting me. Take away any regulations from the NCAA and you get a free for all.

What do the 'yarders this is "appropriate contact" between recruits/parent/HS-AAU coaches and the multiple college coaches coming after them?

 

[ucdt3]

Wow...talk about head in the sand. Rules are rules. Ask the UConn men's program who had similar violations.

My head is not in the sand and never has been. But thank you for your concern!

Do you ever speed? Yes! Do you stop for a full 2 seconds at every stop sign. No! Only the people that get caught (sometimes) get fined. Meanwhile, tons of others get away with it everyday. But rules are rules!! Everyone breaks a minor rule, every now and then. It happens, we're human. Do you honestly believe Geno, Pat, Kim, Muffet, etc., etc. have never broken a recruiting rule/NCAA violation. If you don't, then please get your head out of the sand. I could give a about these minor violations (on the part of the Baylor women) and that's my right. You don't have to agree. That's your right. But please don't tell me that "rules are rules" when they are created and enforced by the NCAA which is a self-governing body that is comprised of hypocritical administrators. The NCAA is not in the business of looking out for the best interest of the "student-athletes" (on some level - yes, but on a major level - no) - they are mostly concerned about maximizing profits for high-profile FBS schools - if they really cared about SA's then Ohio State's FB should have been wiped off the FB map after this last investigation regarding team violations. And as far as UConn MCBB, they are a tiny blip on the major FBS schools' map and therefore aren't connected enough to get special priviledges or win appeals.

 

[justML]

Did I miss something or did this just come out of nowhere?

Rules are rules. We'll never know if breaking those rules helped encourage Griner to attend Baylor.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

Did I miss something or did this just come out of nowhere?

Rules are rules. We'll never know if breaking those rules helped encourage Griner to attend Baylor.

Maybe she had a Wendy's hamburger with Sheila Lambert and Danielle Crockrom.

(Apologies to the Yard, but it was a joke begging to be made).

 

[Sonny44]

A think a one year tournament ban is too often not helpful because it punishes players who were not involved in any way with the period of violations or even the violation itself. When possible the penalties must be applied as directly against those involved. Forfeiting championships is one means of doing that. Punishment going forward of limiting scholarships penalizes the school for not controlling the situation without putting the onus on any incoming students, as well.

Forfeiting championships!
You mean LMM may still get her NC?

 

[stamfordhusky]

I think NCAA rules that regulate/limit coaches' contact with recruits are dumb. First, it requires that too much money, time and energy is spent on compliance employees whose job it is to count and monitor phone calls and text messages. Such a waste. Second, although this is a bigger issue in the men's game than the women's, if coaches are prohibited from contacting recruits during certain months, that vacuum will be filled by others whose influence may be far worse. The job of regulating the amount of contact between coaches and recruits belongs with the recruits and their parents/guardians, not the NCAA.

These rules were specifically requested by the schools and the coaches. Without rules, coaches are under an insane amount of pressure to be on the road or contacting recruits every second of every day. There are also a lot of recruits who like having pre-determined limits.

 

[Icebear]

These rules were specifically requested by the schools and the coaches. Without rules, coaches are under an insane amount of pressure to be on the road or contacting recruits every second of every day. There are also a lot of recruits who like having pre-determined limits.

Right on the rules are important because they make it possible for the coaches and families to have something of a private and the recruits to have periods where there is no contact unless they initiate it with questions, etc. All coaches know that if they have a son or daughter playing AAU ball that they as a college coach must be very careful of the circumstances under which they have contact with potential recruits and family members. The rules are very important to keep balance and equity for everyone.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

There was some discussion on Rebkell as to whether any violations would dissuade a recruit from attending Baylor. If the violations are considered secondary, it is doubtful.

As an example, Tennessee reported a secondary violation regarding "a newspaper photo of women's basketball coach Pat Summitt and assistant coach Dean Lockwood with [then-]recruit Meighan Simmons," (quote from the article) who still signed with Tennessee.

Also, UConn reported a secondary violation involving Maya Moore. "The violation occurred in 2005, when the women's basketball office arranged for Moore to tour the studios of ESPN in Bristol." (quote from the article). The violation was reported in mid-March 2008. Kelly Faris committed to UConn one week later (March 26, 2008).

 

[Icebear]

"A" secondary violation is very different from the numbers I have seen tossed around here in the Baylor situation.

Cam, as to the ESPN fiasco, UConn never made any such "arrangements" at ESPN the specifics of what they did was to place the call for the Moore's essentially dialing the phone and the contact before giving it to them.


"Combined, the men's and women's basketball programs sent 738 impermissible text messages and made 528 impermissible calls over a span of nearly two-and-a-half years. "

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

Cam, as to the ESPN fiasco, UConn never made any such "arrangements" at ESPN the specifics of what they did was to place the call for the Moore's essentially dialing the phone and the contact before giving it to them.

Ice, if you read my link, the language I used was quoted from the article. It was not my opinion as to the conduct, but rather the quote from the ESPN link. Sorry for the confusion.

As an aside, I did the same thing with my comment about Tennessee (using the direct quote from the article as the description of the violation). Did not want to be accused of bias.

I went back and edited my post to reflect language from the article (and did so for both the Tennessee link and the UConn link).

 

[doggydaddy]

My head is not in the sand and never has been. But thank you for your concern!

Do you ever speed? Yes! Do you stop for a full 2 seconds at every stop sign. No! Only the people that get caught (sometimes) get fined. Meanwhile, tons of others get away with it everyday. But rules are rules!! Everyone breaks a minor rule, every now and then. It happens, we're human. Do you honestly believe Geno, Pat, Kim, Muffet, etc., etc. have never broken a recruiting rule/NCAA violation. If you don't, then please get your head out of the sand. I could give a **** about these minor violations (on the part of the Baylor women) and that's my right. You don't have to agree. That's your right. But please don't tell me that "rules are rules" when they are created and enforced by the NCAA which is a self-governing body that is comprised of hypocritical administrators. The NCAA is not in the business of looking out for the best interest of the "student-athletes" (on some level - yes, but on a major level - no) - they are mostly concerned about maximizing profits for high-profile FBS schools - if they really cared about SA's then Ohio State's FB should have been wiped off the FB map after this last investigation regarding team violations. And as far as UConn MCBB, they are a tiny blip on the major FBS schools' map and therefore aren't connected enough to get special priviledges or win appeals.

You break the rules, you get punished. You don't like the rules, lobby to get them changed.

UConn has had one violation. It was silly, but a violation. Stop crying about it and move on.

Where do you get that I'm concerned? It's annoying to have you clutter the board with your whining.

 

[Wbbfan1]

Cam, would you know if the Wendy's server was a graduate from Duke?

Maybe she had a Wendy's hamburger with Sheila Lambert and Danielle Crockrom.

(Apologies to the Yard, but it was a joke begging to be made).

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

Cam, would you know if the Wendy's server was a graduate from Duke?

Come on, you know it wasn't. Didn't Geno say Duke graduates were at the finer restaurants?

 

[ctfjr]

I have been expecting to see reported violations on Baylor as all of the Athletic Programs have shown remarkable improvements and significant upgrade in the quality of athletes that choose Baylor. Lets face facts, Waco and for that matter Baylor is not the most desirable location for an athlete to choose. There has to be reasons, and it usually involves money or under the table benefits provided to athletes.

And this is based on what 'known facts'?

This type of post makes me think I'm on some other 'southern' board. . .

 

[ctfjr]

typical NCAA nonsense, meanwhile "student/athletes" are getting $100 an hour jobs, and several thousand dollars to sign with some schools

Another baseless quote here - Can you name one athlete? Just one

 

[ucdt3]

You break the rules, you get punished. You don't like the rules, lobby to get them changed.

UConn has had one violation. It was silly, but a violation. Stop crying about it and move on.

Where do you get that I'm concerned? It's annoying to have you clutter the board with your whining.

Me whining...yeah that's rich...you should start a comedy tour with all your hilarious comebacks!!!
Are you UConn WBB's version of Judge Judy? Keep 'em coming Tough Guy.

(Oppps, wait...I hope that didn't count as whining or breaking the rules)

I guess UConn is allowed to have silly violations, but not Baylor...I don't like Baylor as much as the next UConn fan...but these supposed violations involving Griner (and phone calls/texts/talking amonst parents) happened almost 4 years ago...maybe they should take away Baylor's Title and award it to ND...no violations have EVER occurred there (Catholics never break rules--myself included)!!!

 

[doggydaddy]

Me whining...yeah that's rich...you should start a comedy tour with all your hilarious comebacks!!!
Are you UConn WBB's version of Judge Judy? Keep 'em coming Tough Guy.

(Oppps, wait...I hope that didn't count as whining or breaking the rules)

I guess UConn is allowed to have silly violations, but not Baylor...I don't like Baylor as much as the next UConn fan...but these supposed violations involving Griner (and phone calls/texts/talking amonst parents) happened almost 4 years ago...maybe they should take away Baylor's Title and award it to ND...no violations have EVER occurred there (Catholics never break rules--myself included)!!!

Sorry, but UConn had what they call a "minor" violation. Baylor has MAJOR violations.

Yes, you are whining. Maybe you need to look up what that means, if you are capable.

Judge Judy? Tough Guy? Did I hit a nerve? You seem a little upset.

Take your midol and a nap. You will feel better.

 

[justML]

Curious to hear from our Baylor posters . . .

 

[Wbbfan1]

Andy Katz on Violations - Video Link

 

[semper]

OK, moving back to the topic at hand (and it is a very interesting one), I wonder if this will hurt Mulkey in the coaches sweepstakes. Or do people think that this will just blow over. It seems the penalties are not going to cause her or the team serious harm, but what about reputation? Some have said that she was moving into the elite coaches realm; will this have an effect?

 

[justML]

OK, moving back to the topic at hand (and it is a very interesting one), I wonder if this will hurt Mulkey in the coaches sweepstakes. Or do people think that this will just blow over. It seems the penalties are not going to cause her or the team serious harm, but what about reputation? Some have said that she was moving into the elite coaches realm; will this have an effect?

Is there another coach in the women's game who has admitted to this level of violations?

Just a thought - With the quick access that social media provides, I think the contact issue may be something that the NCAA has to revisit.

 

[alexrgct]

1. To be clear, limiting contact by college recruiters is something that was generally agreed to be a good idea. The rules are clear and have been clearly promulgated.

2. I've also been under the impression that the rule is enforced more frequently when the NCAA suspects there are more severe violations but can't prove them. Kind of like how Al Capone was ultimately indicted on charges of tax evasion.

3. I hope and want to believe Kim Mulkey runs a generally clean program. I will not afford Scott Drew the same charity.

4. Yes, the rules should be investigated and enforced more uniformly.

5. I want to be careful here from a "glass houses" perspective because some of the UConn girls' majors are of questionable intellectual/academic/professional merit, but it was disturbing to me how many Baylor starters had abolute jokes of majors. Baylor's website states Brittney Griner is a "General studies major with an emphasis on outdoor recreation." What in the blue hell is that??? This is something I want audited more strictly by the NCAA. If student-athletes are sheparded into majors with little value just as a means of keeping them academically eligible, this defeats the purpose of paying for a kid's education. And yes, if my proposal bit UConn, then so be it. It's an epidemic in college sports, and it has to stop.

6. I do hope that if Baylor's WBB program is found in violation, they are punished severely. The last thing we need is any semblance of WCBB heading anywhere in the remote vicinity of MCBB along those lines.

7. Not saying it's going to happen, but in the event that Baylor were stripped of the title, no title will be awarded for 2012. It's not going to go to ND.