Battle in the Bubble - Rothstein

[Hurleyman216]

If you're 90 you've lived an amazing life and have lived longer than most. Hanging on for a couple more years while putting the future of young people in jeopardy where they won't have the luxury of having as good a life as their parents and grandparents is incredibly selfish.

Lockdowns have been a failure, it's created unbelievable economic pain and closures all over while just delaying the inevitable. The virus is surging like crazy in France, Spain, and the UK...it will here as well. Winter is going to be brutal with another major wave and everything going out of business.

I'm having a hard time following your logic...so 90 year old should all die of COVID so that kids can go play basketball? Does that sum it up? I think this is putting EVERYONE'S lives on hold, not just young people. And, if the situation were flipped and it meant that 90 year olds weren't impacted but YOU were, I would hope that those senior citizens would have more empathy for you than you have for them. You kind of sound like a miserable human being.

 

[superjohn]

I'm having a hard time following your logic...so 90 year old should all die of COVID so that kids can go play basketball? Does that sum it up? I think this is putting EVERYONE'S lives on hold, not just young people. And, if the situation were flipped and it meant that 90 year olds weren't impacted but YOU were, I would hope that those senior citizens would have more empathy for you than you have for them. You kind of sound like a miserable human being.

I don't know what you're having trouble following. No, I don't think we should create a lost generation because we think it may save some 90 year olds. I place more value on the lives of young people more than I do 90 year olds, before this pandemic started I thought most everyone did as well. I think we're doing more damage with the way we're handling this than the virus ever could've done.

 

[businesslawyer]

Could you imagine comparing WW2 to this?

Yes, actually. You'd sacrifice for liberty but not for human lives? If your answer is "yes" then it means you're only interested in your liberty, not other people's liberty, because most people would understand that someone who is dead does not have liberty.

 

[Waquoit]

I'm having a hard time following your logic...so 90 year old should all die of COVID so that kids can go play basketball?

That's what he's saying.

 

[Dogdeacon]

So silly, the openupasaurus isn't going to answer questions and will keep restating the narrow facts case or attack an analogy and play the blame game vs discussing the actual situation, pursuing a viable solution.
There are 4 basic flawed theories and talking points that the open up crowd clings to:
1. We cannot contain the virus. Even though protection works, social distancing works and other countries have done RIDICULOUSLY better than the USA, the other dumbfnations are cited as proof that the Virus is Dion Waiters pre-playoffs, you can never stop it, only hope to contain it.
2. Virus only or mostly or predominately effects older people & sick people- problem is this is then framed as if older people sign up for virus Kool Aid so that younger people go on about their day. Problem solved! No one is doing this, no one is testing this and this never was and never will be the case. It is not an option so citing it as an excuse to partially open is Ostrich level behavior. Also, generally speaking isn't it a virtue to PROTECT OUR MOST VULNERABLE?!
3. Herd Immunity: This sounds good to all of us, but there are NEVER specifics, no country has achieved this (best is exponential spread flattens) and it harkens grimly back to #2, by definition herd immunity benefits the strongest and the herd is continually culled.
4. The economic damage > sickness & death & try to avoid citing massive public health crisis and maybe just maybe FOCUSING ON THAT RESPONSE FIRST!!: "I've seen the needle and the damage done, a little part of it in everyone." I've no idea how the stock market is still as high as it is, but there are going to be long term economic consequences and continually re-opening without a plan makes it worse and worse and worse. This argument boils down to combating losses by gambling on exponentially increasingly uncertain outcomes.

 

[superjohn]

So silly, the openupasaurus isn't going to answer questions and will keep restating the narrow facts case or attack an analogy and play the blame game vs discussing the actual situation, pursuing a viable solution.
There are 4 basic flawed theories and talking points that the open up crowd clings to:
1. We cannot contain the virus. Even though protection works, social distancing works and other countries have done RIDICULOUSLY better than the USA, the other dumbfnations are cited as proof that the Virus is Dion Waiters pre-playoffs, you can never stop it, only hope to contain it.
2. Virus only or mostly or predominately effects older people & sick people- problem is this is then framed as if older people sign up for virus Kool Aid so that younger people go on about their day. Problem solved! No one is doing this, no one is testing this and this never was and never will be the case. It is not an option so citing it as an excuse to partially open is Ostrich level behavior. Also, generally speaking isn't it a virtue to PROTECT OUR MOST VULNERABLE?!
3. Herd Immunity: This sounds good to all of us, but there are NEVER specifics, no country has achieved this (best is exponential spread flattens) and it harkens grimly back to #2, by definition herd immunity benefits the strongest and the herd is continually culled.
4. The economic damage > sickness & death & try to avoid citing massive public health crisis and maybe just maybe FOCUSING ON THAT RESPONSE FIRST!!: "I've seen the needle and the damage done, a little part of it in everyone." I've no idea how the stock market is still as high as it is, but there are going to be long term economic consequences and continually re-opening without a plan makes it worse and worse and worse. This argument boils down to combating losses by gambling on exponentially increasingly uncertain outcomes.

@HuskyHawk, this is what I'm talking about.

 

[August_West]

@HuskyHawk, this is what I'm talking about.

LOL

this is an understated great self'ing

 

[Rico444]

@HuskyHawk, this is what I'm talking about.

What is your plan? I've seen you attack the current plan but not give a specific plan of your own. Do you want to open up with no restrictions? Remove some restrictions? Which ones? It's hard to argue your point because I'm not exactly sure what that point is.

 

[superjohn]

What is your plan? I've seen you attack the current plan but not give a specific plan of your own. Do you want to open up with no restrictions? Remove some restrictions? Which ones? It's hard to argue your point because I'm not exactly sure what that point is.

To not shut down everything, to not have completely arbitrary rules as per what can be open and arbitrary rules that make it impossible for businesses to survive, to not shut down parks and beachfront etc. Wear a mask, have cleaning products all over for people to wash their hands and space out more. Other than that carry on largely as normal. You can't shut down society indefinitely and expect there not be horrendous repercussions, I think we're already seeing and will see more and more as time goes on that the response is worse than the virus.

Winter is going to be awful....
France, Spain, the UK are already seeing that all these strategies are doing is delaying the inevitable just as I predicted. Sweden is doing better than everyone in Europe now just as I predicted.

 

[Dogdeacon]

What is your plan? I've seen you attack the current plan but not give a specific plan of your own. Do you want to open up with no restrictions? Remove some restrictions? Which ones? It's hard to argue your point because I'm not exactly sure what that point is.
Superjohn 'plan' To not shut down everything, to not have completely arbitrary rules as per what can be open and arbitrary rules that make it impossible for businesses to survive, to not shut down parks and beachfront etc. Wear a mask, have cleaning products all over for people to wash their hands and space out more. Other than that carry on largely as normal.

As illustrated above, no plan just not the current plan yet somehow an even less clear yet magically more effective version of it.
It is really the same point & plan on everything, best exemplified by the sham claim that political correctness is ruining society.

Namely: I was once able to say and do what I want; but because people now know and realize there are negative consequences on other people, especially other people I don't care or want to truly see, my behavior has to change and I don't like it.

 

[superjohn]

As illustrated above, no plan just not the current plan yet somehow an even less clear yet magically more effective version of it.
It is really the same point & plan on everything, best exemplified by the sham claim that political correctness is ruining society.

Namely: I was once able to say and do what I want; but because people now know and realize there are negative consequences on other people, especially other people I don't care or want to truly see, my behavior has to change and I don't like it.

And it's always the same response from people like you who want to pat themselves on the back. It's not about you or me, I could care less about how little this virus has changed things for me. I care about how it's destroying other people, especially young people...

I'm not young but I know things are worse for them and for most their futures will be worse than mine and worse than it was for the boomers. My mom is 76 years old and from day 1 she said if it's her time to go it stinks but she would be willing to sacrifice herself if it meant things would be better off for the young people. This is selfless...she lived her life, had so many opportunities and got to enjoy it to the fullest, it's now the young peoples turn. It blows my mind more older people don't see things this way, she can't believe it either.

 

[August_West]

Thank you...older/old people like to place blame on young people. I don't think it's ever more evident than it is right now. When you're young you're almost supposed to screw up, it's a part of your DNA, it's a part of growing up. We're dealing with a once in a century pandemic where adults have completely screwed up every step of the way and yet I'm seeing old people say "young people" are selfish. Give me a break.

hey I’ve got a brilliant idea!!!!



Maybe those young people should vote in our, you know, elections?


There’s enough millennials and gen z’ers to actually have a say in this .

 

[HuskyHawk]

To not shut down everything, to not have completely arbitrary rules as per what can be open and arbitrary rules that make it impossible for businesses to survive, to not shut down parks and beachfront etc. Wear a mask, have cleaning products all over for people to wash their hands and space out more. Other than that carry on largely as normal. You can't shut down society indefinitely and expect there not be horrendous repercussions, I think we're already seeing and will see more and more as time goes on that the response is worse than the virus.

Winter is going to be awful....
France, Spain, the UK are already seeing that all these strategies are doing is delaying the inevitable just as I predicted. Sweden is doing better than everyone in Europe now just as I predicted.

Yes. And fix the damned PCR tests at a cycle threshold of 30. That will cut our positives by more than half. So we won't be needlessly closing schools and isolating people.

Meanwhile, when looking at college students.

 

[Dogdeacon]

And it's always the same response from people like you who want to pat themselves on the back. It's not about you or me, I could care less about how little this virus has changed things for me. I care about how it's destroying other people, especially young people...

I'm not young but I know things are worse for them and for most their futures will be worse than mine and worse than it was for the boomers. My mom is 76 years old and from day 1 she said if it's her time to go it stinks but she would be willing to sacrifice herself if it meant things would be better off for the young people. This is selfless...she lived her life, had so many opportunities and got to enjoy it to the fullest, it's now the young peoples turn. It blows my mind more older people don't see things this way, she can't believe it either.

Don't break both your arms patting yourself and your kin on the back for your selfless, selfless attitudes backed by what exactly?
I fail to see an actual plan in willing to sacrifice yourself IF it meant things would be better for younger people. Do you also plan to sacrifice a goat for better crops this fall? Have your mom VOTE for sacrifices and for medical care and for pandemic plans. Or actually go volunteer at a clinic or a testing site or anything that impacts the testing, trials etc..

I've heard the same sentiment from my father in law who was willing to hand out communion; it is myopic martyrdom serving only what he wants to do anyway. Happily his wife told him not to as I'd guess you are likely advising your mom to be careful and avoid risks. No one's mom or grandma out with self-approved risk matrices will enable 20yr olds to play fall soccer.

 

[superjohn]

Don't break both your arms patting yourself and your kin on the back for your selfless, selfless attitudes backed by what exactly?
I fail to see an actual plan in willing to sacrifice yourself IF it meant things would be better for younger people. Do you also plan to sacrifice a goat for better crops this fall? Have your mom VOTE for sacrifices and for medical care and for pandemic plans. Or actually go volunteer at a clinic or a testing site or anything that impacts the testing, trials etc..

I've heard the same sentiment from my father in law who was willing to hand out communion; it is myopic martyrdom serving only what he wants to do anyway. Happily his wife told him not to as I'd guess you are likely advising your mom to be careful and avoid risks. No one's mom or grandma out with self-approved risk matrices will enable 20yr olds to play fall soccer.

Don't shutdown society because the consequences of it are horrendous, especially for young people and all it does is delay the inevitable. We've chosen the path of maximum pain. Why do you think there are so many doctors asking what the hell we are doing. In the very beginning it may have made some sense when it was sold to us as keeping the health system from crashing but with hospitals empty all over many doctors are asking why. Barely any Covid patients, cancer patients, heart patients etc.

 

[UCSouth]

Don't break both your arms patting yourself and your kin on the back for your selfless, selfless attitudes backed by what exactly?
I fail to see an actual plan in willing to sacrifice yourself IF it meant things would be better for younger people. Do you also plan to sacrifice a goat for better crops this fall? Have your mom VOTE for sacrifices and for medical care and for pandemic plans. Or actually go volunteer at a clinic or a testing site or anything that impacts the testing, trials etc..

I've heard the same sentiment from my father in law who was willing to hand out communion; it is myopic martyrdom serving only what he wants to do anyway. Happily his wife told him not to as I'd guess you are likely advising your mom to be careful and avoid risks. No one's mom or grandma out with self-approved risk matrices will enable 20yr olds to play fall soccer.

Leave the goats out of it please.

 

[Huskyforlife]

We didn't send an army of 80 year olds with underlying health conditions to fight in WW2. I can't believe someone put that thought out there, that's embarrassing.

 

[August_West]

We didn't send an army of 80 year olds with underlying health conditions to fight in WW2. I can't believe someone put that thought out there, that's embarrassing.

nope we didn’t. 18-25 year olds made the sacrifice for the betterment of country.

 

[jimva]

This is awesome! You told me to get educated, so I wanted you to know that your attempt to bully me was a total facepalm. I'm not an expert like you but when negotiating I've heard you never want to get over your skis making assumptions about your adversaries cuz you could look really silly, which undermines your position and increases risk.

Appreciate the Biography, much better that you are an expert in Risk Management for the purposes of my paper! I realize this is a public forum so I don't need your permission only screenshots

Another of the lessons of this pandemic has been that so-called "experts" or "leaders" have really failed to properly model proper behavior, which leads to public confusion around standards and procedures. This could be a great example of that, confusing fear with duty on a public forum and attempting to use bullying tactics rather than logic. Can you send me your LinkedIn via DM? I really appreciate it will be super helpful!

thx brother.

I would like to take credit for the following but another person posted this in another post here.

Don’t double down on stupid....it’s a bad look

 

[August_West]

Don't shutdown society because the consequences of it are horrendous, especially for young people and all it does is delay the inevitable. We've chosen the path of maximum pain. Why do you think there are so many doctors asking what the hell we are doing. In the very beginning it may have made some sense when it was sold to us as keeping the health system from crashing but with hospitals empty all over many doctors are asking why. Barely any Covid patients, cancer patients, heart patients etc.

Yet somehow 31k a month are dying.

 

[bmayuc]

My main takeaway from this discussion is that there are actually some people that, when you boil it down, would rather openly prefer to sacrifice a bunch of peoples grandma and grandpas so that their lives or their kids lives aren't moderately inconvenient for like 12-18 months.

Everything else is sort of window dressing honestly.

 

[auggie22]

Yet somehow 31k a month are dying.

Arbys, McDonalds and the like kill far more people than Covid. Maybe we should shut down those, too? Think of the lives you could save (while simultaneously ruining the lives of all of those franchise owners, their families, their customers, etc).

 

[Huskyforlife]

nope we didn’t. 18-25 year olds made the sacrifice for the betterment of country.

So why shouldn't old people make sacrifices for the country now? If you're going to make an example of the selflessness of the young people back then, why not ask the 80 and up crowd to make sacrifices now? Even though anyone should be able to see the difference between a 25 year old dying and a 80 year old.

 

[superjohn]

My main takeaway from this discussion is that there are actually some people that, when you boil it down, would rather openly prefer to sacrifice a bunch of peoples grandma and grandpas so that their lives or their kids lives aren't moderately inconvenient for like 12-18 months.

Everything else is sort of window dressing honestly.

It's unbelievable how flippant some people are about how horrendous this is for so many. Yep, just a moderate inconvenience for 12-18 months...get out of your bubble.

 

[superjohn]

Yet somehow 31k a month are dying.

Most obese large country in the world. We knew from day 1 obesity leads to the worst health outcomes for this virus and yet nothing on food and lifestyle changes from our health officials. It's a whole lot easier to destroy all our businesses and hamstring kids futures than tackle the real problem.

 

[Hurleyman216]

Yeah, we should definitely let the people who are over 70 just die, they "lived a good life". You realize these are the same people who fought for your freedoms? Many of them were UNWILLINGLY drafted to fight in Vietnam. Many of them had to give up their early 20's or put off having families or even died for their country. Now you want THOSE people to just step up and voluntarily die so that some 20 somethings can go out and have fun? Life isn't all rainbows and unicorns. You know what this pandemic might do to the younger generation? It might make them less entitled, it might make them work harder, it might make them go out on their own and start up a new business. There aren't a lot of gray areas here, you're asking old people to die, for what reason? I'm sorry but go tell a Vietnam Vet to their face that their life is less important than some 19 year old self entitled, silver spoon fed stuck up kid who has never experienced hardship in their lives. They'll either laugh at you or YOU might be the one dead. Some people here need a little perspective and possibly a history lesson.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Most obese large country in the world. We knew from day 1 obesity leads to the worst health outcomes for this virus and yet nothing on food and lifestyle changes from our health officials. It's a whole lot easier to destroy all our businesses and hamstring kids futures than tackle the real problem.

That’s a new one!

 

[selles]

My main takeaway from this discussion is that there are actually some people that, when you boil it down, would rather openly prefer to sacrifice a bunch of peoples grandma and grandpas so that their lives or their kids lives aren't moderately inconvenient for like 12-18 months.

Everything else is sort of window dressing honestly.

I think all of us have both younger people and older people about whom we care a great deal. No one wants to sacrifice our parents or grandparents. But your characterization of what is essentially the home arrest of my elementary and middle school aged kids for "like 12-18 months" during a period of their lives that is crucial for learning and socialization as "moderately inconvenient" is ridiculous. We are doing significant damage to our youth right now, even if you can't see it.

A society that respects and cares for its elderly is good and noble. A society that sacrifices its youth for its elderly is insane.

 

[superjohn]

Yeah, we should definitely let the people who are over 70 just die, they "lived a good life". You realize these are the same people who fought for your freedoms? Many of them were UNWILLINGLY drafted to fight in Vietnam. Many of them had to give up their early 20's or put off having families or even died for their country. Now you want THOSE people to just step up and voluntarily die so that some 20 somethings can go out and have fun? Life isn't all rainbows and unicorns. You know what this pandemic might do to the younger generation? It might make them less entitled, it might make them work harder, it might make them go out on their own and start up a new business. There aren't a lot of gray areas here, you're asking old people to die, for what reason? I'm sorry but go tell a Vietnam Vet to their face that their life is less important than some 19 year old self entitled, silver spoon fed stuck up kid who has never experienced hardship in their lives. They'll either laugh at you or YOU might be the one dead. Some people here need a little perspective and possibly a history lesson.

You come across as a major , it's unbelievable you can post that others (me) don't have perspective after you type this. Yep it's just a small inconvenience, yep it's just some 20 somethings missing out on a little fun, the thread title should be about the bubble some of you live in...it's astounding.

Kids aren't being educated and socialized, tens of thousands of people aren't getting cancer and heart disease diagnosed and treated, kids are getting beaten up and molested at home more with no outlet, girlfriends and wives getting knocked around more than usual, depression and other mental illness has gotten worse, suicides are up, divorce is up, people are losing their apartments, houses, businesses, health insurance etc.

It's a whole lot easier to say its just a moderate inconvenience and people want to see grandpa die then to discuss seriously what's actually going on. It's totally unsurpising you bash young people and think what's happening to them is frivolous.

 

[superjohn]

That’s a new one!

That being a new one for you is depressing.