Are we still an elite program?

[Huskies4ever]

dont let a louisville fan see that last post

In his defense, he did say "and a couple others...."

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Everyone is wondering what will become of UConn hoops post Jim Calhoun. Articles are being written, threads are being posted, etc., wondering if we will be able to maintain elite status. But are we really elite anymore?

As much as I want to say yes, if Kemba's team doesn't have that miraculous post season run in 2011, and even the most optimistic UConn fan must admit we caught lightning in a bottle then, I'm not sure. Our last 7 years have been very mediocre and our post season record has been awful. The numbers below don't look like that of an elite program.

The 2011 title allowed us to maintain the elite perception, but the recent underlying numbers don't support it. I can't help but wonder if Arizona hits that 3 in the 2011 tourney if UConn would still be perceived as a top hoop school.

Anyway, I'm not looking to get slammed here. I'd love JC to stay 10 more years. But I'm just taking an honest look at recent history and really, it's not 'all that.'

With new facilities, etal, a new coach can likely at least maintain our recent records and hopefully even improve.

Honest thoughts?

YEAR RECORD BE RECORD BE SEED BE TRN WINS NCAA TRN SEED NCAA TRN WINS
2007 17-14 6-10 12 0 x 0
2008 25-8 13-5 4 0 4 0
2009 27-4 15-3 3 0 1 4
2010 18-16 7-11 12 0 x 0
2011 32-9 9-9 9 5 3 6
2012 20-14 8-10 9 2 9 0
2013 x 0 x 0

Total 139-65 58-48 7 10

"Cocaine is a helluva drug" - Rick James

 

[Huskies4ever]

I hate to criticize someone without providing my own answer (to be picked on by all). Here is my listing of elite teams, in no particular order:

UConn, Syracuse, UNC, Duke, Kansas, Michigan State, Florida, Kentucky.

There are a bunch in "tier 2", and I really struggled with what to do with Pitt. They NEVER do anything in the tourney, but man they have a great record over both Jamie Dixon and Ben Howland's careers! They have done a lot in the Big East and in their OOC, even though they choke almost every year. Because of the perennial choking, they go to tier 2. It will be interesting to see what happens to their NYC recruiting base when they go to the ACC. That's my 2 cents...

See, I put Cuse tier 2, Pitt tier 22 (kidding, they are tier 4 or later).

 

[UConnDan97]

"Cocaine is a helluva drug" - Rick James

 

[Dann]

i enjoy these kind of talks. so lets make a boneyard rating system and rate every team to come up with a list. any takers? how many things do you count and how much weight?

ncaa ship - 10 points
final 4- 9
elite 8- 8
sweet 16- 7
round of 32- 6
all american, ncaa app, lottery pick- 5
nit ship, draft pick non lottery- 4
conf ship title, nba all star-3

all time program wins-do some #'s to points scale? or maybe do it by winning % all time.

what else? changes? how many years do we go back? 30?

 

[Huskies4ever]

The poor bastard who started this post and Gregory Koch (who's a great poster and a proud UConn student, by the way). I feel sorry for Gregory. But the original poster was bashed worse than all but a few UConn fans in the history of this board (...and deservedly so)!

 

[Dann]

i'm just waiting for stb to chime in and tell us where cuse ranks.

maybe even al will check in and pimp out all those undefeated years rutgers has had.

 

[Huskies4ever]

i'm just waiting for stb to chime in and tell us where cuse ranks.

maybe even al will check in and pimp out all those undefeated years rutgers has had.

This thread became dominated by Dan's with reasoning (you, UConnDan97, and myself)! I like your idea with the points system, by the way. Maybe we can tweak it a little, but it is a great concept. Do you wanna bet our beloved Huskies will be ranked pretty favorably?

 

[hungry husky]

I actually don't have much of a problem with Florida being in there, based on the last decade or so of their performance. Donovan has certainly done a nice job there. The one I'm scratching my head on is....Indiana??? Is Bobby Knight back in town? They were okay under Davis and Sampson (and we know about Sampson). Crean had them playing pretty good last year (only last year, by the way), but he had a horrible time in his first three years (6-25, 10-21, 12-20), so.....Indiana???

If UConn ever had a three year stretch of 6-25, 10-21, and 12-20, I am pretty sure that half of the Boneyard would have already committed suicide...

Indiana is elite for me based on the fact that they can put together a string of years and still recruit the top players in the country. They're only recently in the elite conversation based on their play for me, but if you're using recent success as your primary consideration then they aren't elite.

 

[UConnDan97]

Indiana is elite for me based on the fact that they can put together a **** string of years and still recruit the top players in the country. They're only recently in the elite conversation based on their play for me, but if you're using recent success as your primary consideration then they aren't elite.

I hear what your saying, but then if that is the criteria, Pitt, Georgetown, Villanova, and Louisville are all elite too. To add to that, I'm not sure they are able to get the top recruits in the nation anymore. Here is a list of who they've sent to the NBA in the last 10 years (round):

2008 - Eric Gordon (1st) DJ White (1st)
2005 - Bracey Wright (2nd)
2002 - Jared Jeffries (1st)

Let's compare that with the world's most famous mid-major, Gonzaga:

2009 - Austin Daye (1st)
2006 - Adam Morrison (1st)
2005 - Ronny Turiaf (2nd)
2002 - Dan Dickau (1st)

So to recap, I'm not saying that Indiana isn't a very good program. All I'm saying is that it is very tough for them to still be considered "elite". Either way, it's all irrelevant, because the one thing I'm sure about is that UCONN IS ELITE!!!

 

[Kitaman]

Wow with so many responses I hope posters are not trying to convince themselves.

When I argue with an idiot what does that make me?

 

[UConnDan97]

Wow with so many responses I hope posters are not trying to convince themselves.

When I argue with an idiot what does that make me?

Either a bigger idiot.....or a teacher!

 

[HeGotGame]

i went on to include lville and michigan in tier 3 in a later post, that list was a random order of names (thats why i wrote "and a couple others" that i couldnt remember ranting...)

bama may not have the banners, but they have alot on the resume. um, i dont think i need to wake up as i clearly talk about blue bloods and are aware of history of the game. but i still don't count pitts ships from 1823 lol. and fwiw, okst is a tier 3 school, look up there resume.

as for lville tier 2, thats a fair argument. i would say them/cuse and a few others are 10-15 all time if i were to list them. i do not have them in my top 10, but close...

I guess your tier 3 just has a lot more teams then mine. For me, Tier 1 is the blue bloods, Tier 2 is the next 4 that round out the top 10 and Tier 3 rounds out the top 20.

Bama and OK state are not in my top 20. OK State has 3 EE since 1965. I need more then that.

Tier 2 - UConn, Mich State, LVille and Cuse

My tier 3 would be Florida, Ohio State, Michigan, Arizona, Gtown, NC State, Maryland, Texas, UNLV and BC. (1 in there is a joke, Ill leave it up to you to guess who it is.)

 

[freescooter]

there is a difference between certain "blue blood" programs, those who are always going to be given the benefit of the doubt, and can trace their success back several decades and the newer programs, so I sort of like the blue blood-new blood distinction. People will pay attention to Indiana and UCLA even if they are bad. In the next level, or maybe as an "or equal" column, sort of a level 1A, I would put UConn, Michigan State, and I can't really think of anyone else. Certainly not Arizona, maybe Florida if they do something beyond winning with essentially the same team back to back years. Those teams are maybe Tier 2, along with a few others. Syracuse, Louisville are the next level. Sorry that 2 national championships dating from before the computer era don't impress me. Same with Georgetown, who I'd put here along with a bunch of others like Texas. these are programs that have had solid runs and good resumes, but either haven't gotten over the top (Hi Louisville) or have some other issue that prevented them from reaching elite levels (can you spell choke, Syracuse?). they are always, or almost always, good, just not reularly elite.

 

[CL82]

I base "Elite" on recent performance. Not 10 years ago's performance. So I don't think we're Elite anymore. In the last 3 years, we didn't make the tournament 1 year, happened to have a miraculous run the second year after doing mediocre for most of the season, and then lost in the first round the third year. And I really don't care about 1999 or 2004 in my definition of "elite". They were 13 and 8 years ago. I don't consider Maryland "Elite" and they won in 2002. That was 8 years ago. They were "Elite" then, but they're not now. Plain and simple.

Let's take a look at another team in the 2011 Tournament and who they beat

R64: Georgetown
R32: Purdue
Sweet 16: Florida State
Elite 8: Kansas
Final Four: Lost

So, they made it to the final four, defeating at least two premier opponents in Georgetown and Kansas. Purdue was a great team that year too. Florida State was a decent team as well.

That team is VCU. Are they Elite? Clearly not. And also, they did better than we did in the NCAA Tournament in 2012.

In 2010, neither of us made the tournament.

In 2009, we beat Chattanooga, Texas A&M, Purdue, and Missouri (hardly elite teams), before losing to Michigan State. VCU lost in the First Round, narrowly, to an excellent UCLA team. Nevertheless, we have an advantage there.

2008, we lost in the first round to a mediocre San Diego team and VCU failed to qualify.

2007, we didn't make the tournament, and VCU shocked Duke before narrowly losing to Pitt in Overtime.

2012, of course, they made the second round and we lost in the first round.

Therefore, from 2007-2012, excluding VCU's "First Four" win in 2011, the Rams have 6 wins in 4 appearances in the tournament. 2 of those came against teams seeded 3 or higher. They also beat a Duke team seeded 6th, an unusually low seed for Duke, and lost to #3 seed Pitt in OT, a game they played very well. They have 1 Final Four appearance

From 2007-2012, we have 10 wins in 4 appearances, 2 against seeds 3 or higher, and lost to San Diego, a #13 seed, in the first round. We have 2 final fours, but on the way to them, have beaten Bucknell, Cincinnati, San Diego State, Arizona, Chatanooga, Texas A&M, Purdue, and Missouri.
In 2009, we lost once we were in the Final Four, to Michigan State. In 2011, we won after beating Kentucky and Butler in the Final Four.

Obviously, VCU is not an "Elite" team. Anyone who thinks they are is an idiot.

Our Tournament performance is only slightly better than VCU over the last 6 years. They have made one Final Four, we have made 2. Butler has also made 2, and has two semifinal wins. Obviously, Butler is not elite.
We had a miracle run in 2011, so did VCU. So did Butler, for that matter. Nobody would argue that VCU was good enough to beat Georgetown, Purdue, Florida State, or Kansas on a regular basis. Perhaps FSU, but even then I don't think so.
Butler may have been on par with Old Dominion, who they beat in the first round, but nobody would argue they could beat Pitt, Wisconsin, or Florida on a regular basis. They both got lucky. So did we. The only reason we were a 3 was because we won 5 games in 5 days in the Big East Tournament. Prior to that, we were 21-9. You figure DePaul was an easy win, that gets us to 22-9, even without miracle run. If things had gone by seed, we'd have been 22-10. Big East teams with similar records were Villanova at 21-11 who got a #9 seed, Georgetown, 21-10, who got a #6 seed, and St. John's, 21-11, who also got a #6 seed. With our SOS, we'd have probably gotten a 6. Considering there was also a #8 and a #11 in the Final Four, we might have made it, but it would have been a surprise. Without the 5 games in 5 days at the BET, we would never have gotten the #3 that you guys claim made our Championship not unlikely. That was probably the best conferene-NCAA Tournament run in the history of the NCAA, but without it, it would have been another mediocre season. And not only was there one other team with a miracle tournament run that year, but there were TWO. Nobody is claiming they're Elite teams.

Yes, we were once an Elite team. But those times have gone. And this NCAA ban will hurt us even more. Maybe in 5-10 years, we will be Elite again. I hope so. But we're not now.

Edit to respond to the cross-posted post above: Do you really think Miami U football is "elite" right now? I don't. Oh, by the way, they had a recent scandal too. They'll recover. So will we. But not right now.

This post pushed me over the edge to my first ignore on the new board. Clueless, negative, and wordy it's like an amalgamation of the worst traits or the board's worst posters. Congratulations Greg, you are the Tolstoy of suckiness.

 

[CL82]

Dude*. Rhodes*.

Meh, dud works just as well and maybe he meant road scholar in the Jack Kerouac sense.

 

[HuskyHawk]

The whole question is pointless and ill-timed. We are going through a tough next few years. Tourney ban and changeover from the coach who brought us to the top of the mountain. We've been a top 10 program for many years. Is that "elite"? I don't know if we're "blue blood" just yet. But we're not far from it. Like it or not, the success of the women helps...it cements the image of "Basketball U".

The more interesting question is how well the program weathers the coming changes. I have no crystal ball. I am hopeful that we'll be just fine, but there will be rough patches I'm sure.

 

[Huskymaniac]

This post pushed me over the edge to my first ignore on the new board. Clueless, negative, and wordy it's like an amalgamation of the worst traits or the board's worst posters. Congratulations Greg, you are the Tolstoy of suckiness.

Dude is incredibly arrogant and immature. His grasp of the "big picture" non-existant.

About the original poster, I doubt he is even a UConn fan. He is more likely a umess (or Syracuse or PC or...) fan using an alias that makes him look like a UConn fan. Sorry spanky, we are elite and will be for a while longer. UNC survived its dark years while retaining its elite status and so will UConn.

 

[StongingtonBob]

A pretty fair question met by a pack of angry dogs. Maybe it was the wording? Lets face it, you've all been thinking it but this poor guy said it out loud

 

[Waquoit]

A pretty fair question met by a pack of angry dogs. Maybe it was the wording? Lets face it, you've all been thinking it but this poor guy said it out loud

What do you think, Clothy? Is UConn still an elite?

 

[HuskyBballFan]

A pretty fair question met by a pack of angry dogs. Maybe it was the wording? Lets face it, you've all been thinking it but this poor guy said it out loud

Yeah, it's a totally fair question. How can Uconn possibly be considered Elite when we've only made the Final Four twice in the last four years?

 

[StongingtonBob]

I think the question is more about Uconn's future. They have proved they are an elite program with accomplishments. However, when the dust clears from the recruiting scandal, coaching change and tourney ban we will all have a clearer picture of whether they'll remain elite. Your name or any feelings of entitlement won't keep you elite. '13s success or lack of will be a good barometer to the teams character. I personally think that a seamless transition to the new era is highly unlikely.

 

[Robertelamin]

I think the question is more about Uconn's future. They have proved they are an elite program with accomplishments. However, when the dust clears from the recruiting scandal, coaching change and tourney ban we will all have a clearer picture of whether they'll remain elite. Your name or any feelings of entitlement won't keep you elite. '13s success or lack of will be a good barometer to the teams character. I personally think that a seamless transition to the new era is highly unlikely.

What about UMass's future? It has been 14 years since your team made the NCAA tournament.

 

[Waquoit]

I think the question is more about Uconn's future. They have proved they are an elite program with accomplishments. However, when the dust clears from the recruiting scandal, coaching change and tourney ban we will all have a clearer picture of whether they'll remain elite. Your name or any feelings of entitlement won't keep you elite. '13s success or lack of will be a good barometer to the teams character. I personally think that a seamless transition to the new era is highly unlikely.

I agree with you. UConn is still an elite program.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

I base "Elite" on recent performance. Not 10 years ago's performance. So I don't think we're Elite anymore. In the last 3 years, we didn't make the tournament 1 year, happened to have a miraculous run the second year after doing mediocre for most of the season, and then lost in the first round the third year. And I really don't care about 1999 or 2004 in my definition of "elite". They were 13 and 8 years ago. I don't consider Maryland "Elite" and they won in 2002. That was 8 years ago. They were "Elite" then, but they're not now. Plain and simple.

Let's take a look at another team in the 2011 Tournament and who they beat

R64: Georgetown
R32: Purdue
Sweet 16: Florida State
Elite 8: Kansas
Final Four: Lost

So, they made it to the final four, defeating at least two premier opponents in Georgetown and Kansas. Purdue was a great team that year too. Florida State was a decent team as well.

That team is VCU. Are they Elite? Clearly not. And also, they did better than we did in the NCAA Tournament in 2012.

In 2010, neither of us made the tournament.

In 2009, we beat Chattanooga, Texas A&M, Purdue, and Missouri (hardly elite teams), before losing to Michigan State. VCU lost in the First Round, narrowly, to an excellent UCLA team. Nevertheless, we have an advantage there.

2008, we lost in the first round to a mediocre San Diego team and VCU failed to qualify.

2007, we didn't make the tournament, and VCU shocked Duke before narrowly losing to Pitt in Overtime.

2012, of course, they made the second round and we lost in the first round.

Therefore, from 2007-2012, excluding VCU's "First Four" win in 2011, the Rams have 6 wins in 4 appearances in the tournament. 2 of those came against teams seeded 3 or higher. They also beat a Duke team seeded 6th, an unusually low seed for Duke, and lost to #3 seed Pitt in OT, a game they played very well. They have 1 Final Four appearance

From 2007-2012, we have 10 wins in 4 appearances, 2 against seeds 3 or higher, and lost to San Diego, a #13 seed, in the first round. We have 2 final fours, but on the way to them, have beaten Bucknell, Cincinnati, San Diego State, Arizona, Chatanooga, Texas A&M, Purdue, and Missouri.
In 2009, we lost once we were in the Final Four, to Michigan State. In 2011, we won after beating Kentucky and Butler in the Final Four.

Obviously, VCU is not an "Elite" team. Anyone who thinks they are is an idiot.

Our Tournament performance is only slightly better than VCU over the last 6 years. They have made one Final Four, we have made 2. Butler has also made 2, and has two semifinal wins. Obviously, Butler is not elite.
We had a miracle run in 2011, so did VCU. So did Butler, for that matter. Nobody would argue that VCU was good enough to beat Georgetown, Purdue, Florida State, or Kansas on a regular basis. Perhaps FSU, but even then I don't think so.
Butler may have been on par with Old Dominion, who they beat in the first round, but nobody would argue they could beat Pitt, Wisconsin, or Florida on a regular basis. They both got lucky. So did we. The only reason we were a 3 was because we won 5 games in 5 days in the Big East Tournament. Prior to that, we were 21-9. You figure DePaul was an easy win, that gets us to 22-9, even without miracle run. If things had gone by seed, we'd have been 22-10. Big East teams with similar records were Villanova at 21-11 who got a #9 seed, Georgetown, 21-10, who got a #6 seed, and St. John's, 21-11, who also got a #6 seed. With our SOS, we'd have probably gotten a 6. Considering there was also a #8 and a #11 in the Final Four, we might have made it, but it would have been a surprise. Without the 5 games in 5 days at the BET, we would never have gotten the #3 that you guys claim made our Championship not unlikely. That was probably the best conferene-NCAA Tournament run in the history of the NCAA, but without it, it would have been another mediocre season. And not only was there one other team with a miracle tournament run that year, but there were TWO. Nobody is claiming they're Elite teams.

Yes, we were once an Elite team. But those times have gone. And this NCAA ban will hurt us even more. Maybe in 5-10 years, we will be Elite again. I hope so. But we're not now.

Edit to respond to the cross-posted post above: Do you really think Miami U football is "elite" right now? I don't. Oh, by the way, they had a recent scandal too. They'll recover. So will we. But not right now.

Going undefeated out of conference certainly qualifies as doing mediocre for most of the year. The only thing I'll point out is there's a big difference between our recent NCAA tournament performance and VCU's. Next time you see Calhoun, look at his ring finger, and you'll notice what I'm talking about. So who are the elite teams now? By your definition, Duke must not be either, right? How about UNC? How about Kentucky? All have lost in the first round of the NCAA and/or missed the tournament. Ironically, these are the four most recent NCAA champions. So if they're not elite, who is?

I'm sorry, I know you're young, but what you just posted is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.