Are the Tennessee Fans Overreacting (serious question)

[toadfoot]

this can't help. Such a devastating article in today's Times making UTenn look so dirty; competing coaches will make sure that potential recruits see it. Who would sign on there is they have any reasonable alternative?
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/23/s...nnessee-lady-vols-top-25.html?ref=todayspaper

I could be mistaken, but aren't tours of ESPN open to the public or at least weren't they at the time of Maya's recruitment? And wasn't that why that particular "violation" was considered minor. If so, then the Times' article should have pointed that out, especially in light of Summitt's comment that "We don’t play by the same rules", which leaves the clear impression that UConn "got away with something", when in fact it was a trivial violation that could have been completely avoided simply by handing Maya a piece of paper with ESPN's phone number.

 

[toadfoot]

Tennessee didn't receive a single vote for top 25 in the new coaches poll and are not even top 40. Awesome!

 

[CL82]

Competence is not too much to expect. She had a fair shot. They should hire Jen Rizzoti.

Oh.... god... no. Keep our girls out of that Orange purgatory.

 

[cbraarj]

A good article albeit with a few annoying things in there.

The Tennessee-UConn rivalry brought widespread attention and respect to women’s basketball. But Summitt ended the regular-season series in 2007, concerned about how UConn had recruited Maya Moore. The Huskies received a slap on the wrist from the N.C.A.A. after arranging for Moore a tour of ESPN’s studios in Bristol, Conn.

Accurate but misleading. If they talked about the entire "62 page" or whatever complaint and then said that the only minor violation found was UConn calling to arrange for Moore to attend a publicly available tour. It has a different feel.

In next paragraph the author goes on to note that

Summitt made her team practice, even though the season was over.

Add to that "itself a violation of NCAA rules" and you get a different, and through my national flag colored glasses, more accurate view.

No violation because the last day ateam can practice is the day of the NC game.It is rare that it happens but is the rule.

 

[vtcwbuff]

"How could HW have coached with the legend, Pat Summitt for 30+ years and learned nothing"

IMO Warlick learned the Summitt way of playing and thet is her problem. I think that most of the wcbb world , and even some of the Orange folks, are realizing that the game had passed Pat Summitt by years ago. At least Summitt was smart enough to know it and apparently she was trying to change her game. Why else would she share a hot tub with Harry P.

 

[Icebear]

Tennessee didn't receive a single vote for top 25 in the new coaches poll and are not even top 40. Awesome!

That means they are like #38 and #40 in the two polls with a total of two votes combined.

 

[baggerbob]

A measured response - and it can't be easy for you coming on this board and reading the TN threads with our animosity on full display.
Specific to coaching - I think Holly is there for at least another year and maybe more, but if she is to turn this around I think she has to clean house with her assistants and find some young bright students of the game to work with her and teach her and the team how to play basketball. I honestly believe Pat knew she was being passed by for a number of years and was trying to change. Her force of will kept the team respectable even as the talent became more dispersed and the new coaches change the game. Holly? She doesn't have Pat's will, and I honestly don't think she has a very good basketball IQ nor very good personal skills, and I see no signs that she is a good 'teacher'. She is a classic worker bee type personality - point her in the right direction and tell her what to do and she will bust her ___ trying to accomplish it - ask her to come up with a creative plan to accomplish some goal and she will be lost. I suspect she has a notebook of how the first month of practice was run each year under Pat, and she does the exact same practice Pat ran on the exact same day - if this is the 10th day we work on high pick and rolls, and so they work on high pick and rolls. But Pat actual understood what she was seeing in practice and how to correct things - and I see no sign that Holly actually understands what she is seeing. The parts of games I have watched certainly suggest she doesn't understand what is happening on the floor - if player 'x' is supposed to be substituted out at the first stoppage after 4 minutes, then they are substituted out even if they have caught fire and nailed three threes in the last 2 minutes. And that goes beyond systems and coaching style to the heart of what a head coach needs to be.
Probably the greatest strength of both Geno and CD is their ability to see and understand what they are seeing down to the finest detail. They know when something is wrong long before it actually shows in results, and they then get in there and fix it. They understand what a good shot is and a good pass and it doesn't have anything to do with the ball going into the basket or the teammate catching it. It is why playing lots of easy games against AAC opponents doesn't hurt the team preparation, because they are never seduced by the score into thinking things are OK if they aren't.

Perfect example of fixing things by Geno, last year even though Stewie, and Tuck weren't playing badly. They weren't playing well enough for Geno's standards, he sat them after 5 minutes for the rest of the game. Message sent to everyone on the team, no-one is above being held responsible for not playing up to standard.

 

[cbraarj]

Holly Warlick has been in the same system for 30 plus years under a legend.She was very good player and she may of a trusted and loyal asst.but imo Pat ran the team as she saw fit and controlled every aspect of her team but also the program.If she was still there would those players be acting like that.Hell no!Would a parent be getting away with what he did,Hell no.Holly running the same stuff as Pat just means it wont change with her.Time for a change!Nikki McCray as the head coach and Tamicka Catchings as the Ass.Head Coach would help tremendously.I for one would rather see Tenn.stay as one of the best teams in the country.As someone involved with the game for 40 years and a Huskie fan for 29 years.I consider myself a fan of college basketball men and women.These 2 teams were rated the 2nd best rivalry in college basketball.Only surpassed by Duke vs North Carolina according to ESPN.That is what college basketball should be about!

 

[cbraarj]

Perfect example of fixing things by Geno, last year even though Stewie, and Tuck weren't playing badly. They weren't playing well enough for Geno's standards, he sat them after 5 minutes for the rest of the game. Message sent to everyone on the team, no-one is above being held responsible for not playing up to standard.

Easy to do when you know you will still win by 40.

 

[CocoHusky]

That means they are like #38 and #40 in the two polls with a total of two votes combined.

Pre-Season AP and Coaches poll both had Lady Vols as #4. So by any standards even if one includes multiple unforeseen injuries (which did not happen) this is a historic collapse.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Pre-Season AP and Coaches poll both had Lady Vols as #4. So by any standards even if one includes multiple unforeseen injuries (which did not happen) this is a historic collapse.

Highlights the silliness of pre-season polls plus a couple, 3 late season victories involving heroics for unlikely heroines after their #1 went down the prior year seemed to blind the prognosticators to the imperfections of the Vols.

 

[Bestiarius]

"How could HW have coached with the legend, Pat Summitt for 30+ years and learned nothing"

IMO Warlick learned the Summitt way of playing and thet is her problem. I think that most of the wcbb world , and even some of the Orange folks, are realizing that the game had passed Pat Summitt by years ago. At least Summitt was smart enough to know it and apparently she was trying to change her game. Why else would she share a hot tub with Harry P.

Holly didn't have 30 years of experience with Summitt. She had 1 year's experience 30 times. Pat never evolved either.

 

[arty155]

Perfect example of fixing things by Geno, last year even though Stewie, and Tuck weren't playing badly. They weren't playing well enough for Geno's standards, he sat them after 5 minutes for the rest of the game. Message sent to everyone on the team, no-one is above being held responsible for not playing up to standard.

Easy to do when you know you will still win by 40.

-Cbraarj, it appears the “What came first?” assumption here may be a little backwards.
-He does not instill discipline because UConn always wins by 40.
-UConn wins by 40 because he always instills discipline.

 

[EricLA]

Tennessee didn't receive a single vote for top 25 in the new coaches poll and are not even top 40. Awesome!

And yet Creme continues with his delusion that they are a 7 seed. I can't believe the NCAA committee would come close to considering that. The sad thing is that USF, ranked #21, is an 8 seed per Creme...

 

[CocoHusky]

"How could HW have coached with the legend, Pat Summitt for 30+ years and learned nothing"

Holly didn't have 30 years of experience with Summitt. She had 1 year's experience 30 times. Pat never evolved either.

In those 30 years Pat has had 20 former players, assistant coaches, and a son who learned enough from her to become WCBB head coaches and win:
1) Coach of the year in three different major conferences ( PAC-10- Caldwell, ACC-Hatchel, SEC-Mitchell)
2) National Coach of the year (Hatchel twice)
3) National Champions (Hatchel & Peck)
It could be a simple as Holly just doesn't have what it takes & that is not Pat's fault.

 

[CL82]

Holly Warlick has been in the same system for 30 plus years under a legend.She was very good player and she may of a trusted and loyal asst.but imo Pat ran the team as she saw fit and controlled every aspect of her team but also the program.If she was still there would those players be acting like that.Hell no!Would a parent be getting away with what he did,Hell no.Holly running the same stuff as Pat just means it wont change with her.Time for a change!Nikki McCray as the head coach and Tamicka Catchings as the Ass.Head Coach would help tremendously.I for one would rather see Tenn.stay as one of the best teams in the country.As someone involved with the game for 40 years and a Huskie fan for 29 years.I consider myself a fan of college basketball men and women.These 2 teams were rated the 2nd best rivalry in college basketball.Only surpassed by Duke vs North Carolina according to ESPN.That is what college basketball should be about!

Catchings would be an interesting choice as a head coach. I have no idea if she'd be any good but she's had a great career.

 

[SCGamecock]

the unlikelihood of a top coach being recruited as a possible near-term replacement
this is the difference between the women's and men's game. In the latter, most coaches would jump at the chance to rebuild a previously great program, whatever the foundational problems.

The shallow pool of talent that you're recruiting from in WCBB is a primary cause of this. The reason very few coaches in the WCBB world would actively seek out massive rebuilds is because of recruiting... There's so little elite talent in a typical class and the majority of that ends up at 10 or so schools... simply put, a lot of coaches don't have the energy or patience to recruit at the required level to build a school back to prominence, even more so when the talent is slim pickings..

 

[RockyMTblue2]

And yet Creme continues with his delusion that they are a 7 seed. I can't believe the NCAA committee would come close to considering that. The sad thing is that USF, ranked #21, is an 8 seed per Creme...

Ah, come on, Charlie is an SEC sycophant and now his ESPN is officially up there( a bone to Kib) butt! 'Course, he may be what he is because he knows the Committee is also mostly made up of the SEC hemorrhoid club members. How many years have we seen the SEC over load the tourney ranks and promptly fall on their keisters???

 

[EricLA]

Highlights the silliness of pre-season polls plus a couple, 3 late season victories involving heroics for unlikely heroines after their #1 went down the prior year seemed to blind the prognosticators to the imperfections of the Vols.

More than that (the silliness you referenced) is the unfairness of the system in that it took Tennessee FOREVER to drop from the top 25 even though they had 10 losses (and were still ranked). Finally they are outside of even the "also getting votes" category and are basically outside the top 40 per the pollsters.

 

[CocoHusky]

Not sure this has been posted before but Mechelle Voepel has weighed in with some quotes from Catch.
"I've tried to stay supportive, and I think a lot of alums have," said Tamika Catchings"

http://espn.go.com/womens-college-b...-lady-vols-forget-streak-focus-present-future

 

[EricLA]

The shallow pool of talent that you're recruiting from in WCBB is a primary cause of this. The reason very few coaches in the WCBB world would actively seek out massive rebuilds is because of recruiting... There's so little elite talent in a typical class and the majority of that ends up at 10 or so schools... simply put, a lot of coaches don't have the energy or patience to recruit at the required level to build a school back to prominence, even more so when the talent is slim pickings..

Fair enough, but a coach like McGuff or even Jeff Walz are examples of guys who took over programs that were pretty far outside any kind of rankings, but built them up to something special. Dawn Staley is another great example. As is Karen Aston at Texas and I'm sure there are others who would fall into that category... maybe you could add in the coach at UCLA now and maybe even Mitchell at Kentucky - I think they were pretty bad before he got there...

 

[UcMiami]

The shallow pool of talent that you're recruiting from in WCBB is a primary cause of this. The reason very few coaches in the WCBB world would actively seek out massive rebuilds is because of recruiting... There's so little elite talent in a typical class and the majority of that ends up at 10 or so schools... simply put, a lot of coaches don't have the energy or patience to recruit at the required level to build a school back to prominence, even more so when the talent is slim pickings..

If you build it they will come! If you have a vision and can communicate it they will follow. If you are a good coach word will get out.
Look at the top 25 and there are a lot of teams building good things and ones that have built good things relatively quickly. SC, OSU, UL just to name a few. There are enough good players in HS to go around to a lot of schools and make bad programs respectable and then take respectable programs further.

 

[bags27]

Just to show that we Boneyarders are even-handed and not wallowing in schadenfreude, let's recall UConn's own recent grievous violation:

http://espn.go.com/espnw/sports/article/14714514/exactly-how-good-mone-davis-basketball-anyway

 

[cbraarj]

-Cbraarj, it appears the “What came first?” assumption here may be a little backwards.
-He does not instill discipline because UConn always wins by 40.
-UConn wins by 40 because he always instills discipline.
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My point was he would have played them against a top team.No matter how those 2 were playing because he had no bench.Would he have pulled them after 5,10 or 15 minutes against South Carolina if they were still playing that way.I dont think so!

 

[UcMiami]

If you build it they will come! If you have a vision and can communicate it they will follow. If you are a good coach word will get out.
Look at the top 25 and there are a lot of teams building good things and ones that have built good things relatively quickly. SC, OSU, UL just to name a few. There are enough good players in HS to go around to a lot of schools and make bad programs respectable and then take respectable programs further.

My point being I think that a really good coach can do amazing things with pretty minimal talent - there are more good coaches than their used to be so perhaps it is a little harder, but Jeff took a team with little 'ranked' HS talent to the FF twice, Dawn built something interesting enough (having her one highly ranked recruit transfer out after her freshman year) to start attracting other really highly ranked players, Princeton made some serious noise last year with little or no top 100 players. It took only a couple of years for TX to recover from the disaster that was GG (and I'm not sold on the coach, yet, but the school and the region are great for athletics.)
There is enough talent around to compete quickly for conference championships - to challenge in the AAC?, not the last few years, but do any of the P5 conference champions look that formidable - ND, SC, and Baylor are very good but they are not goliaths - Maryland is a two time FF team but unlikely to win the B10 this year, and who knows who the best team in the Pac10 really is.