All Hail Derek Jeter

[WhereistheDove?]

I know a few scouts, including the one that drafted my brother. I know a few players, current and former, including a sure future HOFer who played with my brother. I know a few former players who are currently in the coaching profession at both the minor and major league levels who played with my brother, including his minor league roommate.

We've had some interesting discussions about the validity of some of these "metrics". Many times the conversations have deteriorated into laughter. While they ARE used to an extent and have varying degrees of validity, anyone who takes the "metrics" as bible, while refusing to believe their lying eyes, are fooling themselves.

In his prime, Derek Jeter was a fine defensive shortstop, because he made himself into one with an unwavering work ethic. His range on pop-ups into both foul territory and the outfield carried a "+" rating, while his ability to charge and throw off balance with accuracy was as good as anyone in the game. A talent that even Don Zimmer marveled at. His sure hands made the routine play as automatic as it got and his overall arm strength and release were rated a positional "+". His footwork around the bag and his transition, as well as his delivery to the bag on DPs, were also considered "+" by actual baseball people. His athletic ability and arm strength allowed him to make the jump throw from the hole almost routine, despite the fact that he is considered a large shortstop and the notion the reason for the backhanded jump throw was because of a lack of range in the hole if laughable, as one only need look at his pre-pitch positioning on those particular plays. Some of his highest marks were in an area far less obvious to the casual fan and that area is defensive acumen.

Was Jeter a defensive marvel, the likes of say Omar Vizquel??? Did he have the range of the 5'9" 160# men that have played the position??? Was the 35 to 40 year old Jeter the same defensive SS he was in his youth??? Nope, but the current attempt to smear the 21 to 35 year old Jeter as some ham-handed hack wearing a skillet in lieu of a glove, with zero range and a defensive liability because the "metrics" say so, is the conversation that makes the baseball people we know, laugh.

I'm sorry but at his best he was decent but below average and certainly never gold glove worthy. His range was just never very good and his defensive reputation came from sure hands and the ability to make fairly routine plays for good defensive shortstops look amazing. These metrics generally aren't even that advanced when you actually break them down. Each player has a zone and then is compared to the rest at their position based on how many balls in their zone they convert to outs. It's imperfect but pretty accurate when you get a large enough sample size. DJ has a large sample size and it's not good. He's a hall of fame bat who played just enough defense to be passable at short. The fact that he has multiple gold gloves to his name is one of the many things that completely discredits that award. Regardless of how much name dropping you do to back up you opinion, I completely disagree.

 

[johnnyc]

Speaking of shortshops, is Alan Trammell a HOFer?

I'm gonna say yes based on comparing him to the shortstops that played during his era and are in the HOF.....Yount, Ripken and Ozzie.

 

[rvwsleep]

I'm sorry but at his best he was decent but below average and certainly never gold glove worthy. His range was just never very good and his defensive reputation came from sure hands and the ability to make fairly routine plays for good defensive shortstops look amazing. These metrics generally aren't even that advanced when you actually break them down. Each player has a zone and then is compared to the rest at their position based on how many balls in their zone they convert to outs. It's imperfect but pretty accurate when you get a large enough sample size. DJ has a large sample size and it's not good. He's a hall of fame bat who played just enough defense to be passable at short. The fact that he has multiple gold gloves to his name is one of the many things that completely discredits that award. Regardless of how much name dropping you do to back up you opinion, I completely disagree.

Who would you have given the GG to in the AL at shortstop in 2009 ?

 

[geneticrex]

I'm sorry but at his best he was decent but below average and certainly never gold glove worthy. His range was just never very good and his defensive reputation came from sure hands and the ability to make fairly routine plays for good defensive shortstops look amazing. These metrics generally aren't even that advanced when you actually break them down. Each player has a zone and then is compared to the rest at their position based on how many balls in their zone they convert to outs. It's imperfect but pretty accurate when you get a large enough sample size. DJ has a large sample size and it's not good. He's a hall of fame bat who played just enough defense to be passable at short. The fact that he has multiple gold gloves to his name is one of the many things that completely discredits that award. Regardless of how much name dropping you do to back up you opinion, I completely disagree.

You can disagree to your heart's content and if you think it's just "my opinion", you'd be just as wrong on that count. Wanna try for 3???

PS

Check your reading comprehension skills. I purposely dropped no names.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

You can disagree to your heart's content and if you think it's just "my opinion", you'd be just as wrong on that count. Wanna try for 3???

PS

Check your reading comprehension skills. I purposely dropped no names.

I was trying to figure out how to word that and that was as good as I could do. Using others to validate your opinion even if you just dropped titles.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Who would you have given the GG to in the AL at shortstop in 2009 ?

Elvis Andrus should have won his rookie year. That's not a swipe at DJ though, Andrus is one of the best defensive shortstops in baseball. The errors are what sunk him, which is yet another reason why the gold glove is a total joke.

 

[rvwsleep]

Elvis Andrus should have won his rookie year. That's not a swipe at DJ though, Andrus is one of the best defensive shortstops in baseball. The errors are what sunk him, which is yet another reason why the gold glove is a total joke.

You'll have to help me with this. I assume that your quote "at his best he was decent but below average" means that DJ was a below average fielder in 2009.
If so, how did you determine that ?

 

[WhereistheDove?]

You'll have to help me with this. I assume that your quote "at his best he was decent but below average" means that DJ was a below average fielder in 2009.
If so, how did you determine that ?

I'm not talking about every individual year, I'm talking about his overall defensive peak years. Answer me this. If he played his entire career for the brewers, do you honestly think he'd have one gold glove?

 

[temery]

Sorry, but he should have retired, and been happy to read all the good things said about him.

Finishing a career with a narcissistic farewell tour is not something I can get excited about. Retire already.

 

[geneticrex]

I was trying to figure out how to word that and that was as good as I could do. Using others to validate your opinion even if you just dropped titles.

I am completely comfortable in my knowledge of the mechanics of the game of baseball, to allow my observations to stand on their own.....

You choose to employ metrics to validate your opinion on the shortcomings of Derek Jeter. I choose to use what is available to me and although my knowledge of the mechanics of hitting coming from decades of study (which has translated into helping to improve the skills of hitters at multiple levels, including D1 1st team All-Americans), may be the area I'm better versed in, I have "some" understanding of the other skillsets involved.

I'm fully aware of the varying metrics used in player evaluation, as are the professional evaluators I've had the pleasure to discuss numerous topics with over the years and on the topic of Derek Jeter's defensive abilities, the "opinion" of many of those whose livelihoods depend on accurate evaluations, agree with me.

Does that mean your opinion is less valid than mine??? Absolutely not, but you cannot refute a single point I made in my original statement about Jeter in his prime years at the position. He possessed all the required skills to succeed at the position and the only area he trails some of the great defensive shortstops is maximum range, especially up the middle. Of course as most know, Cal Ripken also had similar issues and this isn't simply my opinion, but the opinion of people paid to give their opinion.

If you would like to debate Jeter's hands, release, footwork, arm strength, defensive acumen, etc., feel free. I love discussing "inside" baseball, from leak, to hip slide, the load phase, you name it.

 

[Lynx23]

This thread is interesting but I think too much time is being spent trying to quantify Jeter's accomplishments or lack thereof) in baseball when, in fact, many current ball players as well as Bud Selig have recently stated that he has been the "face of baseball" for many years. Why is that? What do they know that some don't or just refuse to acknowledge? The five world championships and his finishing 6th on the all-time hit list should provide adequate justification for his legitimacy as a future HOF'er, not to mention his postseason records. More importantly, Jeter has always played hard (no one can dispute that), has never been implicated in the use of PED's (those of you who are decrying his defense and hitting skills are actually supporting this assertion), and has never embarrassed the game in any way. Can you think of one negative thing Jeter ever did or said about another player? I think some people just don't "get" what he has meant to baseball on a whole different level beyond metrics and the respect he has brought to the game. Maybe all of the recent adulation isn't just about the numbers but the way he carried himself in conjunction with a career well-played. There aren't that many solid role models left in professional sports. There may be a few, but there aren't many. Baseball will miss him.

 

[rvwsleep]

I'm not talking about every individual year, I'm talking about his overall defensive peak years. Answer me this. If he played his entire career for the brewers, do you honestly think he'd have one gold glove?

Now I understand what you meant. But that was not what you said. And you still didn't explain what method you used to determine that Jeter was "at his best he was decent but below average"
To answer your question. Yes, I do.

 

[RoyDodger]

No, Trammell is not in the Hall although some believe he belongs. See this article from yesterday on SB Nation.

Sadly, Trammell was fired yesterday as a coach with the Arizona Diamondbacks along with Manager Kirk Gibson. The first act of new GM Dave Stewart's career.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

I am completely comfortable in my knowledge of the mechanics of the game of baseball, to allow my observations to stand on their own.....

You choose to employ metrics to validate your opinion on the shortcomings of Derek Jeter. I choose to use what is available to me and although my knowledge of the mechanics of hitting coming from decades of study (which has translated into helping to improve the skills of hitters at multiple levels, including D1 1st team All-Americans), may be the area I'm better versed in, I have "some" understanding of the other skillsets involved.

I'm fully aware of the varying metrics used in player evaluation, as are the professional evaluators I've had the pleasure to discuss numerous topics with over the years and on the topic of Derek Jeter's defensive abilities, the "opinion" of many of those whose livelihoods depend on accurate evaluations, agree with me.

Does that mean your opinion is less valid than mine??? Absolutely not, but you cannot refute a single point I made in my original statement about Jeter in his prime years at the position. He possessed all the required skills to succeed at the position and the only area he trails some of the great defensive shortstops is maximum range, especially up the middle. Of course as most know, Cal Ripken also had similar issues and this isn't simply my opinion, but the opinion of people paid to give their opinion.

If you would like to debate Jeter's hands, release, footwork, arm strength, defensive acumen, etc., feel free. I love discussing "inside" baseball, from leak, to hip slide, the load phase, you name it.

I won't refute his defensive skills. He knew how to play defense when he could get to the ball but was just athletically limited, for lack of a better term, when it came to getting to those balls. It may be his only true flaw as you pointed out, however it's also by far the most important defensive trait at the most important defensive position. He was born with a hall of fame talent for hitting a baseball, just not moving laterally to get to one in the hole. I doubt we're going to agree on that point though.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Now I understand what you meant. But that was not what you said. And you still didn't explain what method you used to determine that Jeter was "at his best he was decent but below average"
To answer your question. Yes, I do.

I have. It's something pretty much every defensive metric agrees on. Go watch andrelton Simmons play. Those top ten play jump throws are routine grounders for him that you wouldn't even think twice about. Granted, he is probably going to go down as one of the top defensive shortstops in history but it illustrates just how important a couple steps worth of range are to a player.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

This thread is interesting but I think too much time is being spent trying to quantify Jeter's accomplishments or lack thereof) in baseball when, in fact, many current ball players as well as Bud Selig have recently stated that he has been the "face of baseball" for many years. Why is that? What do they know that some don't or just refuse to acknowledge? The five world championships and his finishing 6th on the all-time hit list should provide adequate justification for his legitimacy as a future HOF'er, not to mention his postseason records. More importantly, Jeter has always played hard (no one can dispute that), has never been implicated in the use of PED's (those of you who are decrying his defense and hitting skills are actually supporting this assertion), and has never embarrassed the game in any way. Can you think of one negative thing Jeter ever did or said about another player? I think some people just don't "get" what he has meant to baseball on a whole different level beyond metrics and the respect he has brought to the game. Maybe all of the recent adulation isn't just about the numbers but the way he carried himself in conjunction with a career well-played. There aren't that many solid role models left in professional sports. There may be a few, but there aren't many. Baseball will miss him.

Regardless of opinions on his defense, he is a legitimate hall of famer. There is just no question about that imo. He was consistently a phenomenal shortstop for a very long time. Had he played his career for a small market team and never won a world series, he would still be a hall of famer.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

No, Trammell is not in the Hall although some believe he belongs. See this article from yesterday on SB Nation.

Sadly, Trammell was fired yesterday as a coach with the Arizona Diamondbacks along with Manager Kirk Gibson. The first act of new GM Dave Stewart's career.

Just to be correct, he was fired by Tony LaRussa who is running the show in Diamondback land. And who hired Stewart at the same time.

I am an admirer of Jeter for his career and the way he carried himself throughout. I am a long time Yankee fan but don't follow them (or baseball) minutely. I agree with those who consider him a Hall of Fame lock and deserving.

I also agree there are folks who are in the HOF who were borderline. Maz may indeed be one of them, but I also agree he was - from all I have read - a great defensive player. You want borderline - Phil Rizzuto, is a good example.

And - last comment - like TEmery I'm not the biggest fan of the "farewell tour" process, but it seems to be a "thing" now; Rivera did it last year.

 

[Fishy]

The "tour" thing is nonsense and it didn't start last year.

Any time a player of that stature who's been with one team their entire career retires, opposing teams throw little pregame presentations to them on their last visit. It happened with Mickey Mantle, it happened with Ozzie Smith, it happened with Cal Ripken, it happened with Tony Gwynn, it happened with Chipper Jones, it happened with Mariano Rivera and it happened with Jeter....so stop.

If you're not in the stadium that night, it's no more visible than than a four-second clip on SportsCenter, so hard to see how that taxes anyone's patience.

 

[geneticrex]

I won't refute his defensive skills. He knew how to play defense when he could get to the ball but was just athletically limited, for lack of a better term, when it came to getting to those balls. It may be his only true flaw as you pointed out, however it's also by far the most important defensive trait at the most important defensive position. He was born with a hall of fame talent for hitting a baseball, just not moving laterally to get to one in the hole. I doubt we're going to agree on that point though.

Actually, the most important trait for a shortstop to possess is the ability to make the routine play at an alarmingly high percentage. Extended positional range, varying from player to player, is an added bonus.

Derek Jeter's overall fielding percentage at .976 is comparable to players considered the finest at the position because Jeter made all the plays he was supposed to make. He was by no wild stretch of the imagination, some sausage fingered hack creating a defensive liability every time he assumed the position. Baseball teams do not "hide" a player a shortstop simply because he can amass 200 hits a season.

If Jeter was the liability that some now label him, the Yankees would have moved him in his youth. Possibly to 3rd, where extended lateral range isn't as important as SS, or the outfield since Jeter's above average foot speed, above average arm and ability to track is well documented.

Was he a defensive wizard in the class of an Ozzie Smith??? No.

Was he a solid defensive shortstop who made all the routine plays and would occasionally turn in a gem??? Yes.

 

[RoyDodger]

The "tour" thing is nonsense and it didn't start last year.

Any time a player of that stature who's been with one team their entire career retires, opposing teams throw little pregame presentations to them on their last visit. It happened with Mickey Mantle, it happened with Ozzie Smith, it happened with Cal Ripken, it happened with Tony Gwynn, it happened with Chipper Jones, it happened with Mariano Rivera and it happened with Jeter....so stop.

If you're not in the stadium that night, it's no more visible than than a four-second clip on SportsCenter, so hard to see how that taxes anyone's patience.

I've been following baseball a long time, and do not recollect anything resembling the retirement tours of Mariano Rivera and Derek Jeter. As for Mickey Mantle, I'll cite one recent NY Daily News article: "Mantle’s tour, fitting for a Mad Men-like Manhattanite who lived and died before our age of public emoting, didn’t happen at all. His career fizzled quietly, a little sad, virtually undetected. Declining health had pushed him in the direction of retirement before, but the team lured him back in ’68." And a couple of other quotes:
“It was a different game, a different era,” says Michael. “They didn’t do things like (retirement tours). It wasn’t just Mickey that didn’t do it. No one did those things in those days. Now promotions are so much bigger.”

Adds Appel: “This whole year has been evidence of baseball’s marketing machine. There couldn’t have been a Steiner Sports in 1968. There wouldn’t have been a market for it.” LINK

 

[rugbymate]

This thread is interesting but I think too much time is being spent trying to quantify Jeter's accomplishments or lack thereof) in baseball when, in fact, many current ball players as well as Bud Selig have recently stated that he has been the "face of baseball" for many years. Why is that? What do they know that some don't or just refuse to acknowledge? The five world championships and his finishing 6th on the all-time hit list should provide adequate justification for his legitimacy as a future HOF'er, not to mention his postseason records. More importantly, Jeter has always played hard (no one can dispute that), has never been implicated in the use of PED's (those of you who are decrying his defense and hitting skills are actually supporting this assertion), and has never embarrassed the game in any way. Can you think of one negative thing Jeter ever did or said about another player? I think some people just don't "get" what he has meant to baseball on a whole different level beyond metrics and the respect he has brought to the game. Maybe all of the recent adulation isn't just about the numbers but the way he carried himself in conjunction with a career well-played. There aren't that many solid role models left in professional sports. There may be a few, but there aren't many. Baseball will miss him.

I think you captured the intent of this thread....it was really to honor the man Derek Jeter is and his impact on the game. Statistical arguments aside, DJ brought a gravitas to the game and a trust of the game that had eroded over the years. This is particularly true after the Sosa, McGwire, Bonds and ARod shameless tarnishing of the game for purely personal gain. DJ stood above it all and was the quintessential team player( by the way, the reason many of us are on this board is because of the selflessness of UCONN women's team play).
Let us hope that all professional sports become populated by role models like the incomparable Derek Jeter.

 

[rvwsleep]

I'm not talking about every individual year, I'm talking about his overall defensive peak years. Answer me this. If he played his entire career for the brewers, do you honestly think he'd have one gold glove?

How does his overall defensive peak years apply to a specific years GG award ? The award is for one year, not for how he's done over a period of 5 or 7 years. His defensive metrics (which you are relying on) are actually above average for a couple of the years that he won a GG.
I assume that by asking me if Jeter would have won even one GG award had he played his entire career with the Brewers, that you don't think a player with a negative defensive metric playing for a small market team could win a GG award. Is that correct ?

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

Statistics can prove or disprove anything, IMHO the greatest "stat" to qualify a player for Hall of Fame Induction is:WAS HE ONE OF THE ELITE PLAYERS IN THE ERA HE PLAYED AND RATED HIGH AMONG HIS PEERS AT THAT POSITION!
In every way Derek Jeter deserves to be a unanimous first ballot Hall of Famer! Stat-wise, Image-wise, he was THE FACE of the Yankees and MLB for 20 years!
Jack Morris, Jim Kaat, Mike Mussina, are 3 pitchers who were among the elite but didn't hit the MAGIC #'s that are supposed to take a player to the Hof F level! Granted several players were inducted into the HALL that stats were lower, but WERE among the elite to play the game during their era.
I don't think Bill Mazeroski being in the HALL destroys the HofF in any way!
Gil Hodges was one of the elite at 1st base and surely deserves to be in the HALL! Especially if you throw in his managerial years.

I also feel that even with the over-whelming stats, Pete Rose, should NEVER be inducted into the HALL! In every MLB dugout since the Black Sock scandal of 1919 there's been a sign posted that association with gamblers was cause for banishment from the game! Pete put himself above the game and lied for over 10 years that he didn't gamble. "I'm Pete Rose and the rules don't apply to me!"

Also any players using PED's should never get in the HALL! They knowingly drugged up to pad their stats to make them better then they were!
The irony of the druggies is that most of them were among the elite and had the #'s to get into the HALL clean, but for some reason didn't trust themselves without the 'ROIDS!

 

[RoyDodger]

Also any players using PED's should never get in the HALL! They knowingly drugged up to pad their stats to make them better then they were!
The irony of the druggies is that most of them were among the elite and had the #'s to get into the HALL clean, but for some reason didn't trust themselves without the 'ROIDS!

Despite disliking ballplayers who have cheated or are strongly suspected of having cheated, I somehow feel that the Hall of Fame is incomplete without the likes of Pete Rose (I know he's not accused of cheating, but rather betting on his own team), Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and a few others. Even Shoeless Joe Jackson (13 years with a lifetime BA of .356, and a .408 average in 1911), acquitted in a criminal proceeding in the Black Sox scandal, deserves mention. Maybe there needs to be a Hall of Shame within the Hall of Fame, but without those guys, the history of baseball "Fame" is incomplete.

 

[Fishy]

I've been following baseball a long time, and do not recollect anything resembling the retirement tours of Mariano Rivera and Derek Jeter.

Perhaps I've just followed it more closely than you have.

This is no different than Ripken or Smith or Jones, but because the last two were Yankees, some people feel obligated to make believe it's something that's been manufactured.

 

[rvwsleep]

Statistics can prove or disprove anything, IMHO the greatest "stat" to qualify a player for Hall of Fame Induction is:WAS HE ONE OF THE ELITE PLAYERS IN THE ERA HE PLAYED AND RATED HIGH AMONG HIS PEERS AT THAT POSITION!
In every way Derek Jeter deserves to be a unanimous first ballot Hall of Famer! Stat-wise, Image-wise, he was THE FACE of the Yankees and MLB for 20 years!
Jack Morris, Jim Kaat, Mike Mussina, are 3 pitchers who were among the elite but didn't hit the MAGIC #'s that are supposed to take a player to the Hof F level! Granted several players were inducted into the HALL that stats were lower, but WERE among the elite to play the game during their era.
I don't think Bill Mazeroski being in the HALL destroys the HofF in any way!
Gil Hodges was one of the elite at 1st base and surely deserves to be in the HALL! Especially if you throw in his managerial years.

I also feel that even with the over-whelming stats, Pete Rose, should NEVER be inducted into the HALL! In every MLB dugout since the Black Sock scandal of 1919 there's been a sign posted that association with gamblers was cause for banishment from the game! Pete put himself above the game and lied for over 10 years that he didn't gamble. "I'm Pete Rose and the rules don't apply to me!"

Also any players using PED's should never get in the HALL! They knowingly drugged up to pad their stats to make them better then they were!
The irony of the druggies is that most of them were among the elite and had the #'s to get into the HALL clean, but for some reason didn't trust themselves without the 'ROIDS!

What about players who are already in the HoF who are subsequently found to have taken PED's ?

 

[Fishy]

Despite disliking ballplayers who have cheated or are strongly suspected of having cheated, I somehow feel that the Hall of Fame is incomplete without the likes of Pete Rose (I know he's not accused of cheating, but rather betting on his own team), Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and a few others. Even Shoeless Joe Jackson (13 years with a lifetime BA of .356, and a .408 average in 1911), acquitted in a criminal proceeding in the Black Sox scandal, deserves mention. Maybe there needs to be a Hall of Shame within the Hall of Fame, but without those guys, the history of baseball "Fame" is incomplete.

I think you're right in emphasizing the "fame" part.

I don't know what they can do with the steroid era players - that's a tough one. You can make an argument that they're products of what they took and you can make an argument that despite that, they did what they did on the field.

But having a Hall of Fame without Pete Rose or Shoeless Joe or even a guy like Roger Maris is a little silly. It is a hall of fame and you're not telling the history of baseball without those three players.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

How does his overall defensive peak years apply to a specific years GG award ? The award is for one year, not for how he's done over a period of 5 or 7 years. His defensive metrics (which you are relying on) are actually above average for a couple of the years that he won a GG.
I assume that by asking me if Jeter would have won even one GG award had he played his entire career with the Brewers, that you don't think a player with a negative defensive metric playing for a small market team could win a GG award. Is that correct ?

That isn't the slightest bit close to what I was saying. The gold glove is and always has been a joke of an award given based on popularity and top ten plays.

 

[rvwsleep]

That isn't the slightest bit close to what I was saying. The gold glove is and always has been a joke of an award given based on popularity and top ten plays.

Let's try it this way. Why did you ask me if Jeter would have won a GG if he played for the Brewers ?

 

[mauconnfan]

I think you've put the horse in front of the thing it usually pulls, at least in part. If Jeter had better power, he would've hit 3 or 4.

What? I know "The Laser Show" hits 3 or 4 (a lot the last few years) in the lineup and I'd love to hear about his production?