All Hail Derek Jeter

[WhereistheDove?]

This thread is interesting but I think too much time is being spent trying to quantify Jeter's accomplishments or lack thereof) in baseball when, in fact, many current ball players as well as Bud Selig have recently stated that he has been the "face of baseball" for many years. Why is that? What do they know that some don't or just refuse to acknowledge? The five world championships and his finishing 6th on the all-time hit list should provide adequate justification for his legitimacy as a future HOF'er, not to mention his postseason records. More importantly, Jeter has always played hard (no one can dispute that), has never been implicated in the use of PED's (those of you who are decrying his defense and hitting skills are actually supporting this assertion), and has never embarrassed the game in any way. Can you think of one negative thing Jeter ever did or said about another player? I think some people just don't "get" what he has meant to baseball on a whole different level beyond metrics and the respect he has brought to the game. Maybe all of the recent adulation isn't just about the numbers but the way he carried himself in conjunction with a career well-played. There aren't that many solid role models left in professional sports. There may be a few, but there aren't many. Baseball will miss him.

Regardless of opinions on his defense, he is a legitimate hall of famer. There is just no question about that imo. He was consistently a phenomenal shortstop for a very long time. Had he played his career for a small market team and never won a world series, he would still be a hall of famer.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

No, Trammell is not in the Hall although some believe he belongs. See this article from yesterday on SB Nation.

Sadly, Trammell was fired yesterday as a coach with the Arizona Diamondbacks along with Manager Kirk Gibson. The first act of new GM Dave Stewart's career.

Just to be correct, he was fired by Tony LaRussa who is running the show in Diamondback land. And who hired Stewart at the same time.

I am an admirer of Jeter for his career and the way he carried himself throughout. I am a long time Yankee fan but don't follow them (or baseball) minutely. I agree with those who consider him a Hall of Fame lock and deserving.

I also agree there are folks who are in the HOF who were borderline. Maz may indeed be one of them, but I also agree he was - from all I have read - a great defensive player. You want borderline - Phil Rizzuto, is a good example.

And - last comment - like TEmery I'm not the biggest fan of the "farewell tour" process, but it seems to be a "thing" now; Rivera did it last year.

 

[Fishy]

The "tour" thing is nonsense and it didn't start last year.

Any time a player of that stature who's been with one team their entire career retires, opposing teams throw little pregame presentations to them on their last visit. It happened with Mickey Mantle, it happened with Ozzie Smith, it happened with Cal Ripken, it happened with Tony Gwynn, it happened with Chipper Jones, it happened with Mariano Rivera and it happened with Jeter....so stop.

If you're not in the stadium that night, it's no more visible than than a four-second clip on SportsCenter, so hard to see how that taxes anyone's patience.

 

[geneticrex]

I won't refute his defensive skills. He knew how to play defense when he could get to the ball but was just athletically limited, for lack of a better term, when it came to getting to those balls. It may be his only true flaw as you pointed out, however it's also by far the most important defensive trait at the most important defensive position. He was born with a hall of fame talent for hitting a baseball, just not moving laterally to get to one in the hole. I doubt we're going to agree on that point though.

Actually, the most important trait for a shortstop to possess is the ability to make the routine play at an alarmingly high percentage. Extended positional range, varying from player to player, is an added bonus.

Derek Jeter's overall fielding percentage at .976 is comparable to players considered the finest at the position because Jeter made all the plays he was supposed to make. He was by no wild stretch of the imagination, some sausage fingered hack creating a defensive liability every time he assumed the position. Baseball teams do not "hide" a player a shortstop simply because he can amass 200 hits a season.

If Jeter was the liability that some now label him, the Yankees would have moved him in his youth. Possibly to 3rd, where extended lateral range isn't as important as SS, or the outfield since Jeter's above average foot speed, above average arm and ability to track is well documented.

Was he a defensive wizard in the class of an Ozzie Smith??? No.

Was he a solid defensive shortstop who made all the routine plays and would occasionally turn in a gem??? Yes.

 

[RoyDodger]

The "tour" thing is nonsense and it didn't start last year.

Any time a player of that stature who's been with one team their entire career retires, opposing teams throw little pregame presentations to them on their last visit. It happened with Mickey Mantle, it happened with Ozzie Smith, it happened with Cal Ripken, it happened with Tony Gwynn, it happened with Chipper Jones, it happened with Mariano Rivera and it happened with Jeter....so stop.

If you're not in the stadium that night, it's no more visible than than a four-second clip on SportsCenter, so hard to see how that taxes anyone's patience.

I've been following baseball a long time, and do not recollect anything resembling the retirement tours of Mariano Rivera and Derek Jeter. As for Mickey Mantle, I'll cite one recent NY Daily News article: "Mantle’s tour, fitting for a Mad Men-like Manhattanite who lived and died before our age of public emoting, didn’t happen at all. His career fizzled quietly, a little sad, virtually undetected. Declining health had pushed him in the direction of retirement before, but the team lured him back in ’68." And a couple of other quotes:
“It was a different game, a different era,” says Michael. “They didn’t do things like (retirement tours). It wasn’t just Mickey that didn’t do it. No one did those things in those days. Now promotions are so much bigger.”

Adds Appel: “This whole year has been evidence of baseball’s marketing machine. There couldn’t have been a Steiner Sports in 1968. There wouldn’t have been a market for it.” LINK

 

[rugbymate]

This thread is interesting but I think too much time is being spent trying to quantify Jeter's accomplishments or lack thereof) in baseball when, in fact, many current ball players as well as Bud Selig have recently stated that he has been the "face of baseball" for many years. Why is that? What do they know that some don't or just refuse to acknowledge? The five world championships and his finishing 6th on the all-time hit list should provide adequate justification for his legitimacy as a future HOF'er, not to mention his postseason records. More importantly, Jeter has always played hard (no one can dispute that), has never been implicated in the use of PED's (those of you who are decrying his defense and hitting skills are actually supporting this assertion), and has never embarrassed the game in any way. Can you think of one negative thing Jeter ever did or said about another player? I think some people just don't "get" what he has meant to baseball on a whole different level beyond metrics and the respect he has brought to the game. Maybe all of the recent adulation isn't just about the numbers but the way he carried himself in conjunction with a career well-played. There aren't that many solid role models left in professional sports. There may be a few, but there aren't many. Baseball will miss him.

I think you captured the intent of this thread....it was really to honor the man Derek Jeter is and his impact on the game. Statistical arguments aside, DJ brought a gravitas to the game and a trust of the game that had eroded over the years. This is particularly true after the Sosa, McGwire, Bonds and ARod shameless tarnishing of the game for purely personal gain. DJ stood above it all and was the quintessential team player( by the way, the reason many of us are on this board is because of the selflessness of UCONN women's team play).
Let us hope that all professional sports become populated by role models like the incomparable Derek Jeter.

 

[rvwsleep]

I'm not talking about every individual year, I'm talking about his overall defensive peak years. Answer me this. If he played his entire career for the brewers, do you honestly think he'd have one gold glove?

How does his overall defensive peak years apply to a specific years GG award ? The award is for one year, not for how he's done over a period of 5 or 7 years. His defensive metrics (which you are relying on) are actually above average for a couple of the years that he won a GG.
I assume that by asking me if Jeter would have won even one GG award had he played his entire career with the Brewers, that you don't think a player with a negative defensive metric playing for a small market team could win a GG award. Is that correct ?

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

Statistics can prove or disprove anything, IMHO the greatest "stat" to qualify a player for Hall of Fame Induction is:WAS HE ONE OF THE ELITE PLAYERS IN THE ERA HE PLAYED AND RATED HIGH AMONG HIS PEERS AT THAT POSITION!
In every way Derek Jeter deserves to be a unanimous first ballot Hall of Famer! Stat-wise, Image-wise, he was THE FACE of the Yankees and MLB for 20 years!
Jack Morris, Jim Kaat, Mike Mussina, are 3 pitchers who were among the elite but didn't hit the MAGIC #'s that are supposed to take a player to the Hof F level! Granted several players were inducted into the HALL that stats were lower, but WERE among the elite to play the game during their era.
I don't think Bill Mazeroski being in the HALL destroys the HofF in any way!
Gil Hodges was one of the elite at 1st base and surely deserves to be in the HALL! Especially if you throw in his managerial years.

I also feel that even with the over-whelming stats, Pete Rose, should NEVER be inducted into the HALL! In every MLB dugout since the Black Sock scandal of 1919 there's been a sign posted that association with gamblers was cause for banishment from the game! Pete put himself above the game and lied for over 10 years that he didn't gamble. "I'm Pete Rose and the rules don't apply to me!"

Also any players using PED's should never get in the HALL! They knowingly drugged up to pad their stats to make them better then they were!
The irony of the druggies is that most of them were among the elite and had the #'s to get into the HALL clean, but for some reason didn't trust themselves without the 'ROIDS!

 

[RoyDodger]

Also any players using PED's should never get in the HALL! They knowingly drugged up to pad their stats to make them better then they were!
The irony of the druggies is that most of them were among the elite and had the #'s to get into the HALL clean, but for some reason didn't trust themselves without the 'ROIDS!

Despite disliking ballplayers who have cheated or are strongly suspected of having cheated, I somehow feel that the Hall of Fame is incomplete without the likes of Pete Rose (I know he's not accused of cheating, but rather betting on his own team), Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and a few others. Even Shoeless Joe Jackson (13 years with a lifetime BA of .356, and a .408 average in 1911), acquitted in a criminal proceeding in the Black Sox scandal, deserves mention. Maybe there needs to be a Hall of Shame within the Hall of Fame, but without those guys, the history of baseball "Fame" is incomplete.

 

[Fishy]

I've been following baseball a long time, and do not recollect anything resembling the retirement tours of Mariano Rivera and Derek Jeter.

Perhaps I've just followed it more closely than you have.

This is no different than Ripken or Smith or Jones, but because the last two were Yankees, some people feel obligated to make believe it's something that's been manufactured.

 

[rvwsleep]

Statistics can prove or disprove anything, IMHO the greatest "stat" to qualify a player for Hall of Fame Induction is:WAS HE ONE OF THE ELITE PLAYERS IN THE ERA HE PLAYED AND RATED HIGH AMONG HIS PEERS AT THAT POSITION!
In every way Derek Jeter deserves to be a unanimous first ballot Hall of Famer! Stat-wise, Image-wise, he was THE FACE of the Yankees and MLB for 20 years!
Jack Morris, Jim Kaat, Mike Mussina, are 3 pitchers who were among the elite but didn't hit the MAGIC #'s that are supposed to take a player to the Hof F level! Granted several players were inducted into the HALL that stats were lower, but WERE among the elite to play the game during their era.
I don't think Bill Mazeroski being in the HALL destroys the HofF in any way!
Gil Hodges was one of the elite at 1st base and surely deserves to be in the HALL! Especially if you throw in his managerial years.

I also feel that even with the over-whelming stats, Pete Rose, should NEVER be inducted into the HALL! In every MLB dugout since the Black Sock scandal of 1919 there's been a sign posted that association with gamblers was cause for banishment from the game! Pete put himself above the game and lied for over 10 years that he didn't gamble. "I'm Pete Rose and the rules don't apply to me!"

Also any players using PED's should never get in the HALL! They knowingly drugged up to pad their stats to make them better then they were!
The irony of the druggies is that most of them were among the elite and had the #'s to get into the HALL clean, but for some reason didn't trust themselves without the 'ROIDS!

What about players who are already in the HoF who are subsequently found to have taken PED's ?

 

[Fishy]

Despite disliking ballplayers who have cheated or are strongly suspected of having cheated, I somehow feel that the Hall of Fame is incomplete without the likes of Pete Rose (I know he's not accused of cheating, but rather betting on his own team), Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and a few others. Even Shoeless Joe Jackson (13 years with a lifetime BA of .356, and a .408 average in 1911), acquitted in a criminal proceeding in the Black Sox scandal, deserves mention. Maybe there needs to be a Hall of Shame within the Hall of Fame, but without those guys, the history of baseball "Fame" is incomplete.

I think you're right in emphasizing the "fame" part.

I don't know what they can do with the steroid era players - that's a tough one. You can make an argument that they're products of what they took and you can make an argument that despite that, they did what they did on the field.

But having a Hall of Fame without Pete Rose or Shoeless Joe or even a guy like Roger Maris is a little silly. It is a hall of fame and you're not telling the history of baseball without those three players.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

How does his overall defensive peak years apply to a specific years GG award ? The award is for one year, not for how he's done over a period of 5 or 7 years. His defensive metrics (which you are relying on) are actually above average for a couple of the years that he won a GG.
I assume that by asking me if Jeter would have won even one GG award had he played his entire career with the Brewers, that you don't think a player with a negative defensive metric playing for a small market team could win a GG award. Is that correct ?

That isn't the slightest bit close to what I was saying. The gold glove is and always has been a joke of an award given based on popularity and top ten plays.

 

[rvwsleep]

That isn't the slightest bit close to what I was saying. The gold glove is and always has been a joke of an award given based on popularity and top ten plays.

Let's try it this way. Why did you ask me if Jeter would have won a GG if he played for the Brewers ?

 

[mauconnfan]

I think you've put the horse in front of the thing it usually pulls, at least in part. If Jeter had better power, he would've hit 3 or 4.

What? I know "The Laser Show" hits 3 or 4 (a lot the last few years) in the lineup and I'd love to hear about his production?

 

[j66kicker]

Let's try it this way. Why did you ask me if Jeter would have won a GG if he played for the Brewers ?

Isn't the GG voted on by players & managers?

 

[Wally East]

Isn't the GG voted on by players & managers?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=who+votes+for+the+gold+glove+award

 

[j66kicker]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=who votes for the gold glove award

Thanks. Managers can't vote for their own players, and a Sabermetric measure counts for 25%. Really doesn't sound like a popularity contest.

 

[geneticrex]

Thanks. Managers can't vote for their own players, and a Sabermetric measure counts for 25%. Really doesn't sound like a popularity contest.

Because it isn't.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

RoyDodger- - - The players mentioned are out because they chose to be out by cheating! If this leaves baseball's legacy wanting then that's their problem! You don't reward cheating, so it makes cheating worth-while because eventually you'll be forgiven or forgotten.
Life is really simple, you have two choices, the right way or the wrong way, NO SECOND CHANCES! You screw up you're gone!
There should be an area put aside in Cooperstown, with a large plaque that states from these dates to these dates certain players (not named) chose to use PED's to pad their stats and there were players in 1919 and the 1970's and 1980's that gambled and they are both banned from the Hall of Fame and Baseball!

rvwsleep- - - Very good question and maybe adding to their plaque that they subsequently were found to have used drugs to attain admission to the HofF might be an answer.

Fishy- - - Roger Maris NOT being in the Hall is a travesty! But he's not in because the voters are stupid, not for anything Roger did! I saw Maris many times while growing up in the Bronx and he was a 5 tool player, hit, hit for power, run, throw, & defense! He could have easily been a .300 hitter but sacrificed avg. for power in Yankee Stadium! And the fact that his 61 was clean and Bonds, Sosa & McGuire have "passed" him on drugs stinks!
As far as Rose goes he made his bed now he has to lie in the muck! His ego put him banned from baseball! He has no-one to blame but himself! Now he's crying, "forgive me, everyone should get a 2nd chance!"

After everything that's happened with PED's, if your now caught drugging you're banned from baseball even on first offense in the minors or majors! No 50 games then 100, then out!

 

[rvwsleep]

Here's the problem. The HoF is already full of players who took PED's. Starting at least in the 1960's, lots of players were using PED's. In his autobiography, Hank Aaron admitted to using amphetamines toward the end of his career.
(In 1973, at the age of 39, Hank had his best HR to at bat ratio of his entire career. 40 HR's in 392 AB's).
You can see the problem baseball has. Where do you draw the line ? Was it ok to take amphetamines but not steroids ? Penalise only those who have tested positive for a banned substance ? Very few of the players who have taken PED's have tested positive.
As you can see, I have plenty of questions but very few good answers.
One writer's dilemma
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8769398/a-writer-gives-hall-fame-vote

 

[RoyDodger]

RoyDodger- - - The players mentioned are out because they chose to be out by cheating! If this leaves baseball's legacy wanting then that's their problem! You don't reward cheating, so it makes cheating worth-while because eventually you'll be forgiven or forgotten.
Life is really simple, you have two choices, the right way or the wrong way, NO SECOND CHANCES! You screw up you're gone!
There should be an area put aside in Cooperstown, with a large plaque that states from these dates to these dates certain players (not named) chose to use PED's to pad their stats and there were players in 1919 and the 1970's and 1980's that gambled and they are both banned from the Hall of Fame and Baseball!

I thought I made it clear that I'm fully aware of the cheating. Who isn't? But the issue is about what you refer to as a "reward." Obviously, the current voters see the HOF in that way. I have trouble with that. I believe the Hall was intended to be a reflection of baseball history and fame. Have you ever been to Cooperstown? Aside from the plaques, it's all about baseball history from the myth of Abner Doubleday to the present. Leaving out some of the top players of all-time (and some based on suspicion only) would be like teaching history and consciously leaving out various troubled times in history because it's distasteful.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

RoyDodger- - - -I think the majority of fans, players, etc. think of it as a museum but more than that rewarding the games greatest players for what thay brought to the table! Present members of the H of F have openly said they DO NOT want cheaters/druggies inducted and will not vote for them! They don't want those cheaters names connected with the Hall! So it means a lot to the members that it stays clean!

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

rvwsleep- - - Thanks for the great article! MLB & voters have to come up with a mission statement and clarify what is or isn't out of bounds! My personal feeling is stated above but I agree that there is too much grey areas that is misunderstood! Such as, is a pitcher eligible for both the CY YOUNG Award AND the MVP or just CYA?

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

rvwsleep- - - And I do realize that the Hall is far from PURE at the present time! It is quite a ? that has to be addressed at some time!