All Hail Derek Jeter

[RoyDodger]

He hit 3 or 4 in the lineup vs 1 or 2 so he better have more HR's and RBI. Need to think about these things before you have ridiculous comparisons. Konerko did it right too it would seem and a good guy also. "More productive"? I think not......

Some people on this board get much too defensive. I didn't say that Konerko was more productive than Derek Jeter overall. Only that by the standard of home runs, rbis and OPS. I've been a baseball fan since the days of Ebbets Field (first game 1952) and have seen some of the greatest players in the history of baseball. Of course, Derek Jeter is a great and a future Hall of Famer. He's #6 in all-time hits behind Stan Musial and Tris Speaker!! That's some company. I was simply wondering why someone like Konerko, who has had an outstanding career, was getting almost no attention upon retirement after an 18 year career.

But when you rush to judgment on who makes the Baseball Hall of Fame, think about this member of the Hall: He played 15 years with five different teams. He had a lifetime BA of .306. He hit 78 homers and 870 rbis and an OPS of .781. Can you name him?

 

[mauconnfan]

Some people on this board get much too defensive. I didn't say that Konerko was more productive than Derek Jeter overall. Only that by the standard of home runs, rbis and OPS. I've been a baseball fan since the days of Ebbets Field (first game 1952) and have seen some of the greatest players in the history of baseball. Of course, Derek Jeter is a great and a future Hall of Famer. He's #6 in all-time hits behind Stan Musial and Tris Speaker!! That's some company. I was simply wondering why someone like Konerko, who has had an outstanding career, was getting almost no attention upon retirement after an 18 year career.

But when you rush to judgment on who makes the Baseball Hall of Fame, think about this member of the Hall: He played 15 years with five different teams. He had a lifetime BA of .306. He hit 78 homers and 870 rbis and an OPS of .781. Can you name him?

Without looking anything up I'm only guessing it was pitcher who could hit!! LOL..........

 

[rvwsleep]

George Kell. The problem is the Veteran's committee. Now broken into 3 separate committee's, they have allowed players in who weren't accepted by the BBWAA in the eligibility time frame allowed of 15 years. If you can't win the approval of 75% of the writers over a 15 year period by the people who watched you play, you probably don't deserve to be inducted.
BTW. Kell's offensive numbers blow Mazeroski's out of the water.
Maz 260 BA 299 OBP 667 OPS
Kell 306 BA 367 OBP 781 OPS
Maz's 667 OPS is the 3rd lowest for any non pitcher in the HoF who played after WW II and the 2 lower ( Aparicio and O Smith) were deemed much more valuable to their team as judged by MVP voting over the years.

 

[RoyDodger]

George Kell. The problem is the Veteran's committee. Now broken into 3 separate committee's, they have allowed players in who weren't accepted by the BBWAA in the eligibility time frame allowed of 15 years. If you can't win the approval of 75% of the writers over a 15 year period by the people who watched you play, you probably don't deserve to be inducted.
BTW. Kell's offensive numbers blow Mazeroski's out of the water.
Maz 260 BA 299 OBP 667 OPS
Kell 306 BA 367 OBP 781 OPS
Maz's 667 OPS is the 3rd lowest for any non pitcher in the HoF who played after WW II and the 2 lower ( Aparicio and O Smith) were deemed much more valuable to their team as judged by MVP voting over the years.

Excellent. Yes, the Veteran's Committee has been controversial in its choices at times, but there are also controversies over ballplayers it has refused to admit such as Gil Hodges, who was recognized during his career as one of the best, if not the best, first baseman of his time. He played on seven pennant winners and two World Championship teams (that's what they called them in those days before the current "World Series Champion" title took over) and managed the Mets to their first World Series title in 1969. I just noted from Hodges' Baseball Reference page that he received votes for MVP in nine different seasons (although he was never MVP) and was an All-Star eight times. I've always suspected that Hodges didn't make it because that Brooklyn Dodgers team already had four regulars in the HOF (Robinson, Reese, Snider and Campanella). The point I'm making is that the voting for the HOF can be quite subjective.

 

[Wally East]

He hit 3 or 4 in the lineup vs 1 or 2 so he better have more HR's and RBI. Need to think about these things before you have ridiculous comparisons. Konerko did it right too it would seem and a good guy also. "More productive"? I think not......

I think you've put the horse in front of the thing it usually pulls, at least in part. If Jeter had better power, he would've hit 3 or 4.

 

[Aluminny69]

Maz is in the HOF for hitting the Greatest Home Run Ever......

 

[johnnyc]

I was simply wondering why someone like Konerko, who has had an outstanding career, was getting almost no attention upon retirement after an 18 year career.

Playing in NY has something to do with it but also Jeter's playoff success which is a career in itself. But also it might be because of these new stats that people are looking at now. I was surprised to see that Jeter has a higher WAR stat by 44 points over Konerko. Maybe position played has something to do with it?

 

[rvwsleep]

Maz is in the HOF for hitting the Greatest Home Run Ever.

Wow. Didn't know you could get into the HoF for hitting just one home run. What about Bobby Thompson ? His lifetime WAR is close to Maz's and his offensive WAR is MUCH higher. A single event criteria would open the door to lots more players. How about pitching a perfect game in the World Series ?
Why not let everybody in ?

 

[rvwsleep]

Excellent. Yes, the Veteran's Committee has been controversial in its choices at times, but there are also controversies over ballplayers it has refused to admit such as Gil Hodges, who was recognized during his career as one of the best, if not the best, first baseman of his time. He played on seven pennant winners and two World Championship teams (that's what they called them in those days before the current "World Series Champion" title took over) and managed the Mets to their first World Series title in 1969. I just noted from Hodges' Baseball Reference page that he received votes for MVP in nine different seasons (although he was never MVP) and was an All-Star eight times. I've always suspected that Hodges didn't make it because that Brooklyn Dodgers team already had four regulars in the HOF (Robinson, Reese, Snider and Campanella). The point I'm making is that the voting for the HOF can be quite subjective.

I've gone back and forth on Hodges inclusion in the Hall. It's close but I think his career as a manger makes the difference.
An interesting side note. Hodges, from the people I know who actually saw him play, was an excellent defensive first baseman. Yet, his lifetime defensive WAR is way below average and he was graded out to be above average defensively in only 1 of the 14 full seasons that he played.

 

[sivad40]

Speaking of shortshops, is Alan Trammell a HOFer?

 

[WhereistheDove?]

I know a few scouts, including the one that drafted my brother. I know a few players, current and former, including a sure future HOFer who played with my brother. I know a few former players who are currently in the coaching profession at both the minor and major league levels who played with my brother, including his minor league roommate.

We've had some interesting discussions about the validity of some of these "metrics". Many times the conversations have deteriorated into laughter. While they ARE used to an extent and have varying degrees of validity, anyone who takes the "metrics" as bible, while refusing to believe their lying eyes, are fooling themselves.

In his prime, Derek Jeter was a fine defensive shortstop, because he made himself into one with an unwavering work ethic. His range on pop-ups into both foul territory and the outfield carried a "+" rating, while his ability to charge and throw off balance with accuracy was as good as anyone in the game. A talent that even Don Zimmer marveled at. His sure hands made the routine play as automatic as it got and his overall arm strength and release were rated a positional "+". His footwork around the bag and his transition, as well as his delivery to the bag on DPs, were also considered "+" by actual baseball people. His athletic ability and arm strength allowed him to make the jump throw from the hole almost routine, despite the fact that he is considered a large shortstop and the notion the reason for the backhanded jump throw was because of a lack of range in the hole if laughable, as one only need look at his pre-pitch positioning on those particular plays. Some of his highest marks were in an area far less obvious to the casual fan and that area is defensive acumen.

Was Jeter a defensive marvel, the likes of say Omar Vizquel??? Did he have the range of the 5'9" 160# men that have played the position??? Was the 35 to 40 year old Jeter the same defensive SS he was in his youth??? Nope, but the current attempt to smear the 21 to 35 year old Jeter as some ham-handed hack wearing a skillet in lieu of a glove, with zero range and a defensive liability because the "metrics" say so, is the conversation that makes the baseball people we know, laugh.

I'm sorry but at his best he was decent but below average and certainly never gold glove worthy. His range was just never very good and his defensive reputation came from sure hands and the ability to make fairly routine plays for good defensive shortstops look amazing. These metrics generally aren't even that advanced when you actually break them down. Each player has a zone and then is compared to the rest at their position based on how many balls in their zone they convert to outs. It's imperfect but pretty accurate when you get a large enough sample size. DJ has a large sample size and it's not good. He's a hall of fame bat who played just enough defense to be passable at short. The fact that he has multiple gold gloves to his name is one of the many things that completely discredits that award. Regardless of how much name dropping you do to back up you opinion, I completely disagree.

 

[johnnyc]

Speaking of shortshops, is Alan Trammell a HOFer?

I'm gonna say yes based on comparing him to the shortstops that played during his era and are in the HOF.....Yount, Ripken and Ozzie.

 

[rvwsleep]

I'm sorry but at his best he was decent but below average and certainly never gold glove worthy. His range was just never very good and his defensive reputation came from sure hands and the ability to make fairly routine plays for good defensive shortstops look amazing. These metrics generally aren't even that advanced when you actually break them down. Each player has a zone and then is compared to the rest at their position based on how many balls in their zone they convert to outs. It's imperfect but pretty accurate when you get a large enough sample size. DJ has a large sample size and it's not good. He's a hall of fame bat who played just enough defense to be passable at short. The fact that he has multiple gold gloves to his name is one of the many things that completely discredits that award. Regardless of how much name dropping you do to back up you opinion, I completely disagree.

Who would you have given the GG to in the AL at shortstop in 2009 ?

 

[geneticrex]

I'm sorry but at his best he was decent but below average and certainly never gold glove worthy. His range was just never very good and his defensive reputation came from sure hands and the ability to make fairly routine plays for good defensive shortstops look amazing. These metrics generally aren't even that advanced when you actually break them down. Each player has a zone and then is compared to the rest at their position based on how many balls in their zone they convert to outs. It's imperfect but pretty accurate when you get a large enough sample size. DJ has a large sample size and it's not good. He's a hall of fame bat who played just enough defense to be passable at short. The fact that he has multiple gold gloves to his name is one of the many things that completely discredits that award. Regardless of how much name dropping you do to back up you opinion, I completely disagree.

You can disagree to your heart's content and if you think it's just "my opinion", you'd be just as wrong on that count. Wanna try for 3???

PS

Check your reading comprehension skills. I purposely dropped no names.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

You can disagree to your heart's content and if you think it's just "my opinion", you'd be just as wrong on that count. Wanna try for 3???

PS

Check your reading comprehension skills. I purposely dropped no names.

I was trying to figure out how to word that and that was as good as I could do. Using others to validate your opinion even if you just dropped titles.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Who would you have given the GG to in the AL at shortstop in 2009 ?

Elvis Andrus should have won his rookie year. That's not a swipe at DJ though, Andrus is one of the best defensive shortstops in baseball. The errors are what sunk him, which is yet another reason why the gold glove is a total joke.

 

[rvwsleep]

Elvis Andrus should have won his rookie year. That's not a swipe at DJ though, Andrus is one of the best defensive shortstops in baseball. The errors are what sunk him, which is yet another reason why the gold glove is a total joke.

You'll have to help me with this. I assume that your quote "at his best he was decent but below average" means that DJ was a below average fielder in 2009.
If so, how did you determine that ?

 

[WhereistheDove?]

You'll have to help me with this. I assume that your quote "at his best he was decent but below average" means that DJ was a below average fielder in 2009.
If so, how did you determine that ?

I'm not talking about every individual year, I'm talking about his overall defensive peak years. Answer me this. If he played his entire career for the brewers, do you honestly think he'd have one gold glove?

 

[temery]

Sorry, but he should have retired, and been happy to read all the good things said about him.

Finishing a career with a narcissistic farewell tour is not something I can get excited about. Retire already.

 

[geneticrex]

I was trying to figure out how to word that and that was as good as I could do. Using others to validate your opinion even if you just dropped titles.

I am completely comfortable in my knowledge of the mechanics of the game of baseball, to allow my observations to stand on their own.....

You choose to employ metrics to validate your opinion on the shortcomings of Derek Jeter. I choose to use what is available to me and although my knowledge of the mechanics of hitting coming from decades of study (which has translated into helping to improve the skills of hitters at multiple levels, including D1 1st team All-Americans), may be the area I'm better versed in, I have "some" understanding of the other skillsets involved.

I'm fully aware of the varying metrics used in player evaluation, as are the professional evaluators I've had the pleasure to discuss numerous topics with over the years and on the topic of Derek Jeter's defensive abilities, the "opinion" of many of those whose livelihoods depend on accurate evaluations, agree with me.

Does that mean your opinion is less valid than mine??? Absolutely not, but you cannot refute a single point I made in my original statement about Jeter in his prime years at the position. He possessed all the required skills to succeed at the position and the only area he trails some of the great defensive shortstops is maximum range, especially up the middle. Of course as most know, Cal Ripken also had similar issues and this isn't simply my opinion, but the opinion of people paid to give their opinion.

If you would like to debate Jeter's hands, release, footwork, arm strength, defensive acumen, etc., feel free. I love discussing "inside" baseball, from leak, to hip slide, the load phase, you name it.

 

[Lynx23]

This thread is interesting but I think too much time is being spent trying to quantify Jeter's accomplishments or lack thereof) in baseball when, in fact, many current ball players as well as Bud Selig have recently stated that he has been the "face of baseball" for many years. Why is that? What do they know that some don't or just refuse to acknowledge? The five world championships and his finishing 6th on the all-time hit list should provide adequate justification for his legitimacy as a future HOF'er, not to mention his postseason records. More importantly, Jeter has always played hard (no one can dispute that), has never been implicated in the use of PED's (those of you who are decrying his defense and hitting skills are actually supporting this assertion), and has never embarrassed the game in any way. Can you think of one negative thing Jeter ever did or said about another player? I think some people just don't "get" what he has meant to baseball on a whole different level beyond metrics and the respect he has brought to the game. Maybe all of the recent adulation isn't just about the numbers but the way he carried himself in conjunction with a career well-played. There aren't that many solid role models left in professional sports. There may be a few, but there aren't many. Baseball will miss him.

 

[rvwsleep]

I'm not talking about every individual year, I'm talking about his overall defensive peak years. Answer me this. If he played his entire career for the brewers, do you honestly think he'd have one gold glove?

Now I understand what you meant. But that was not what you said. And you still didn't explain what method you used to determine that Jeter was "at his best he was decent but below average"
To answer your question. Yes, I do.

 

[RoyDodger]

No, Trammell is not in the Hall although some believe he belongs. See this article from yesterday on SB Nation.

Sadly, Trammell was fired yesterday as a coach with the Arizona Diamondbacks along with Manager Kirk Gibson. The first act of new GM Dave Stewart's career.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

I am completely comfortable in my knowledge of the mechanics of the game of baseball, to allow my observations to stand on their own.....

You choose to employ metrics to validate your opinion on the shortcomings of Derek Jeter. I choose to use what is available to me and although my knowledge of the mechanics of hitting coming from decades of study (which has translated into helping to improve the skills of hitters at multiple levels, including D1 1st team All-Americans), may be the area I'm better versed in, I have "some" understanding of the other skillsets involved.

I'm fully aware of the varying metrics used in player evaluation, as are the professional evaluators I've had the pleasure to discuss numerous topics with over the years and on the topic of Derek Jeter's defensive abilities, the "opinion" of many of those whose livelihoods depend on accurate evaluations, agree with me.

Does that mean your opinion is less valid than mine??? Absolutely not, but you cannot refute a single point I made in my original statement about Jeter in his prime years at the position. He possessed all the required skills to succeed at the position and the only area he trails some of the great defensive shortstops is maximum range, especially up the middle. Of course as most know, Cal Ripken also had similar issues and this isn't simply my opinion, but the opinion of people paid to give their opinion.

If you would like to debate Jeter's hands, release, footwork, arm strength, defensive acumen, etc., feel free. I love discussing "inside" baseball, from leak, to hip slide, the load phase, you name it.

I won't refute his defensive skills. He knew how to play defense when he could get to the ball but was just athletically limited, for lack of a better term, when it came to getting to those balls. It may be his only true flaw as you pointed out, however it's also by far the most important defensive trait at the most important defensive position. He was born with a hall of fame talent for hitting a baseball, just not moving laterally to get to one in the hole. I doubt we're going to agree on that point though.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Now I understand what you meant. But that was not what you said. And you still didn't explain what method you used to determine that Jeter was "at his best he was decent but below average"
To answer your question. Yes, I do.

I have. It's something pretty much every defensive metric agrees on. Go watch andrelton Simmons play. Those top ten play jump throws are routine grounders for him that you wouldn't even think twice about. Granted, he is probably going to go down as one of the top defensive shortstops in history but it illustrates just how important a couple steps worth of range are to a player.