All Hail Derek Jeter

[WhereistheDove?]

[ Keith Olbermann weighs in.....]

Very nice sendoff! Yes, Jeter was the worst player who ever played - that's why he played in 13 all-star games. Very classy, nice way to show your re2spect, Kieth. You're a scumbag.

His 20-year lifetime batting average of .309 and playoff batting average of .308 are HOF worthy, but mainly Jeets was CLUTCH.

Here's the "flip" to get Jeremy Giambi out and save game 3 of the 2001 ALDS...

http://m.mlb.com/video/v3134880/nyyoak-gm-3-jeter-cuts-down-runner-with-iconic-flip

Yes, Olbermann is an for saying it (mainly due to the timing), however you've totally intentionally, I can only assume, misrepresented what he said. In fact you really aren't even in the same ballpark in terms of what he said. That all being said, I can't say Olbermann is wrong. You can argue top 10 Yankees but the rest of it is pretty much right, though the timing still screams "Look at me!" and is obnoxious.

 

[Aluminny69]

Without looking it up,my gut tells me that Cal Ripkin Jr. had a better statistical career, may have even been a better shortstop. Did Ripken make the HOF unanimously on the first ballot?

Either way, this has been an interesting discussion. Yes, Olbermann is a blowhard, but he does raise some interesting points, and goes against the Jeter wave. I agree the timing is bad...

 

[Creaky]

A great defensive player ? Yes. A great player ? No. There are 383 players (not counting pitchers or that would add another 200) who have a higher lifetime WAR than Maz. I've been a James devotee since the 80's and still have copies of "Baseball Abstract" from those years floating around somewhere. Defensive metrics are still in a state of flux. There are just too many obvious anomalies to consider them accurate. How's this.
Don Mattingly won of 9 gold glove awards and was a truly great defensive player, Yet, according to the defensive WAR metric, he was a below average fielder for every season of his career except one !

My point was simple: you're wrong that Mazeroski's election to the Hall came anywhere near "destroying any standards that the HoF has." He was a great second baseman. There are many lesser players in the Hall. Most were elected before he was.

Also, you're saying above that Mazeroski looks bad per defensive WAR, which is indicative of his worth, AND that Mattingly looks bad per defensive WAR, but that's a travesty. Now I get it.

 

[j66kicker]

Without looking it up,my gut tells me that Cal Ripkin Jr. had a better statistical career, may have even been a better shortstop. Did Ripken make the HOF unanimously on the first ballot?

Either way, this has been an interesting discussion. Yes, Olbermann is a blowhard, but he does raise some interesting points, and goes against the Jeter wave. I agree the timing is bad...

Cal may have been a better shortstop - that is subjective. He had 2 gold gloves, Jeter had 5

In 21 years Cal had 3184 hits (#15 all time) to Jeter's 3463 (so far) (#6 all time). Jeter's hits are the all-time best for a shortstop.

Cal batted .276 for his career (#764 all time) to Jeter's .309 (#114 all time).

Cal had 1 World Series championship, 2 league MVPs, 19 All Star appearances and 2 All Star MVPs.

Derek had 5 WS championships, 1 league MVP, 1 World Series MVP, 14 All Star appearances, 1 All Star MVP.

Both clearly belong in the HOF. Nobody is ever going to get in unanimously on the first ballot because some writers don't think anyone should, and won't vote for anyone their first year.

 

[Lynx23]

I've watched it many, many (many) times. He's safe. But whatcha gonna do?

Jeter was safe. I'll refer you to the top right corner of the 3rd page of photos in Ian O'Connor's The Captain, Jeter's authorized biography. Posada can be seen applying the tag to the back of Giambi's right leg while his cleat is inches from the ground. It's one of those ridiculously close plays that could go either way but the ump got it right. In fact, it's so close, that if you like Jeter, he's probably safe and if you're not a big fan, he's likely out. Replay would not have overturned the call whether he had been called safe or out, because there would not have been sufficient evidence to do so. The bottom line is, the ump called him safe and that's how history will record the play. BTW, I was at the game last night and the place couldn't have been more electric. A fitting end to a great career.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Cal may have been a better shortstop - that is subjective. He had 2 gold gloves, Jeter had 5

In 21 years Cal had 3184 hits (#15 all time) to Jeter's 3463 (so far) (#6 all time). Jeter's hits are the all-time best for a shortstop.

Cal batted .276 for his career (#764 all time) to Jeter's .309 (#114 all time).

Cal had 1 World Series championship, 2 league MVPs, 19 All Star appearances and 2 All Star MVPs.

Derek had 5 WS championships, 1 league MVP, 1 World Series MVP, 14 All Star appearances, 1 All Star MVP.

Both clearly belong in the HOF. Nobody is ever going to get in unanimously on the first ballot because some writers don't think anyone should, and won't vote for anyone their first year.

Please don't use gold gloves to quantify defensive ability. Pretty much every advanced defensive metric agrees that Derek Jeter was not a very good defensive shortstop and definitely not worthy of those gold gloves. He's a hall of fame offensive shortstop but defensively, not so much. That jump throw hid the fact that he just couldn't get to that many balls with subpar range.

 

[rvwsleep]

My point was simple: you're wrong that Mazeroski's election to the Hall came anywhere near "destroying any standards that the HoF has." He was a great second baseman. There are many lesser players in the Hall. Most were elected before he was.

Also, you're saying above that Mazeroski looks bad per defensive WAR, which is indicative of his worth, AND that Mattingly looks bad per defensive WAR, but that's a travesty. Now I get it.

If you're going to quote me, please do it accurately. Where did I say that "Mazeroski looks bad per defensive War". I stated that "There are 383 players (not counting pitchers or that would add another 200) who have a higher lifetime WAR than Maz" (WAR is composed of offensive and defensive components). That is a statement of fact. I never used the term "defensive WAR" as it pertains to Maz in that post. But, as a matter of fact, most of Maz's WAR total comes from the defensive component, the unreliable metric. He wasn't good with a bat in his hands.
How you came up with "Maz looks bad per defensive War" I don't know.
He wasn't worthy of the HOF even if you included defensive WAR. Exclude it and there would be a 1,000 players in front of Maz.
I brought up Mattingly's defensive WAR as an example of the metrics unreliability. Using defensive WAR is a travesty in both cases.
Now do you get it ?

 

[Creaky]

If you're going to quote me, please do it accurately. Where did I say that "Mazeroski looks bad per defensive War". I stated that "There are 383 players (not counting pitchers or that would add another 200) who have a higher lifetime WAR than Maz" (WAR is composed of offensive and defensive components). That is a statement of fact. I never used the term "defensive WAR" as it pertains to Maz in that post. But, as a matter of fact, most of Maz's WAR total comes from the defensive component, the unreliable metric. He wasn't good with a bat in his hands.
How you came up with "Maz looks bad per defensive War" I don't know.
He wasn't worthy of the HOF even if you included defensive WAR. Exclude it and there would be a 1,000 players in front of Maz.
I brought up Mattingly's defensive WAR as an example of the metrics unreliability. Using defensive WAR is a travesty in both cases.
Now do you get it ?

It wasn't a quote. It was a characterization of the way you handled your WAR assessments. My point remains the same: you're wrong that Mazeroski's election to the Hall came anywhere near "destroying any standards that the HoF has." He was a great second baseman. There are many lesser players in the Hall. Most were elected before he was.

 

[rvwsleep]

It wasn't a quote. It was a characterization of the way you handled your WAR assessments. My point remains the same: you're wrong that Mazeroski's election to the Hall came anywhere near "destroying any standards that the HoF has." He was a great second baseman. There are many lesser players in the Hall. Most were elected before he was.

An inaccurate characterization. You forgot that part.
The point does remain the same. Maz does not belong in the HOF. By putting him in, the Old Timers committee have lowered the standards of it's entry. Would you have voted him in ?

 

[Tonyc]

You cant make this stuff up. Last nite was written for the books and after game to congratulate the Orioles well how much more class can you show. A true Icon and Role model for everybody no matter your age. We could all model ourselves after DJ. I had tears in my eyes in the 9th inning because I knew it was going to happen ,just the way it did. It doesnt get any better then last nite. What a last hurrah.

 

[johnnyc]

His reaction to Posada saying "He's #1" is ridiculous. Jorge has been Jeter's closest friend on the team for more than 20 years, going back to when they played together in the minors. Posada wasn't engaging in a detailed analysis, he was giving a friend a compliment. So Keith gives us selected stats (does he really believe that Nettles was a better Yankee than Jeter ?) to prove what ? Throw out the defensive war stat (see my previous post) and Jeter has the 20th highest offensive WAR ranking in the history of the game.

I made my list of top 10 Yankees just off the top of my head with no statistical study. I don't really understand the statistic WAR. I know it is a comparison to an average player in a single season or over a career. Anyway, after I made the list I then looked up each players total WAR for their career.....


01. The Babe 163
02. The Mick 109
03. Gehrig 112
04. Joe D 78
05. Yogi 59
06. Mo 57
07. Jeter 72
08. Red Ruffing 55
09. Whitey Ford 54
10. Mattingly 42

Jeter comes out looking pretty good and might be placed higher but again I do not fully understand WAR and if it is accurate especially with defense.

 

[RoyDodger]

There's another likely future Hall of Famer retiring from MLB whose retirement has received almost no attention. He played 18 years, hit 439 homers and has had 1,412 rbis. He also has an OPS of .841 in those 18 years. Can anyone name him?

 

[SubbaBub]

There's another likely future Hall of Famer retiring from MLB whose retirement has received almost no attention. He played 18 years, hit 439 homers and has had 1,412 rbis. He also has an OPS of .841 in those 18 years. Can anyone name him?

Paul Kenerko, and no one cares.

 

[rvwsleep]

Paul Kenerko, and no one cares.

A few people in Chicago probably do.

 

[lsj001]

Paul Kenerko is borderline HOF and even that is a stretch.

 

[RoyDodger]

Paul Kenerko, and no one cares.

Funny about that. I wonder why. In 18 years he had more homers and rbis and a better OPS than Jeter had in 20 years. Jeter only had 260 homers and 1310 rbis and an OPS of .817. By that standard, he was a better hitter and more productive than Jeter. But, of course, he didn't play for the New York Yankees.

Incidentally, Konerko goes down in my book as one the Dodgers' worst trades ever. They traded him to Cincinnati for Jeff Shaw, an almost over-the-hill pitcher, when Konerko was only 22. And the Reds, being equally stupid, traded him to the White Sox after one season.

 

[j66kicker]

Funny about that. I wonder why. In 18 years he had more homers and rbis and a better OPS than Jeter had in 20 years. Jeter only had 260 homers and 1310 rbis and an OPS of .817. By that standard, he was a better hitter and more productive than Jeter. But, of course, he didn't play for the New York Yankees.

Incidentally, Konerko goes down in my book as one the Dodgers' worst trades ever. They traded him to Cincinnati for Jeff Shaw, an almost over-the-hill pitcher, when Konerko was only 22. And the Reds, being equally stupid, traded him to the White Sox after one season.

I always liked Konerko. Hard to compare some offensive stats of power hitters (which OPS rewards) vs leadoff and #2 hitters. True Jeter's OPS only .828 vs Konerko's .842. Jeter's career batting avg is 30 points higher, and he has 358 stolen bases vs. 9 for Konerko. Jeter also has 161 more walks, and OBP of .377 vs Konerko's .354.

 

[lsj001]

Not to mention the 1,100 more hits. Paul Kenerko has a 20% chance at best to make the Hall. Look at his numbers versus Ortiz. That's a better comparison.

 

[mauconnfan]

Funny about that. I wonder why. In 18 years he had more homers and rbis and a better OPS than Jeter had in 20 years. Jeter only had 260 homers and 1310 rbis and an OPS of .817. By that standard, he was a better hitter and more productive than Jeter. But, of course, he didn't play for the New York Yankees.

Incidentally, Konerko goes down in my book as one the Dodgers' worst trades ever. They traded him to Cincinnati for Jeff Shaw, an almost over-the-hill pitcher, when Konerko was only 22. And the Reds, being equally stupid, traded him to the White Sox after one season.

He hit 3 or 4 in the lineup vs 1 or 2 so he better have more HR's and RBI. Need to think about these things before you have ridiculous comparisons. Konerko did it right too it would seem and a good guy also. "More productive"? I think not...........

 

[geneticrex]

I know a few scouts, including the one that drafted my brother. I know a few players, current and former, including a sure future HOFer who played with my brother. I know a few former players who are currently in the coaching profession at both the minor and major league levels who played with my brother, including his minor league roommate.

We've had some interesting discussions about the validity of some of these "metrics". Many times the conversations have deteriorated into laughter. While they ARE used to an extent and have varying degrees of validity, anyone who takes the "metrics" as bible, while refusing to believe their lying eyes, are fooling themselves.

In his prime, Derek Jeter was a fine defensive shortstop, because he made himself into one with an unwavering work ethic. His range on pop-ups into both foul territory and the outfield carried a "+" rating, while his ability to charge and throw off balance with accuracy was as good as anyone in the game. A talent that even Don Zimmer marveled at. His sure hands made the routine play as automatic as it got and his overall arm strength and release were rated a positional "+". His footwork around the bag and his transition, as well as his delivery to the bag on DPs, were also considered "+" by actual baseball people. His athletic ability and arm strength allowed him to make the jump throw from the hole almost routine, despite the fact that he is considered a large shortstop and the notion the reason for the backhanded jump throw was because of a lack of range in the hole if laughable, as one only need look at his pre-pitch positioning on those particular plays. Some of his highest marks were in an area far less obvious to the casual fan and that area is defensive acumen.

Was Jeter a defensive marvel, the likes of say Omar Vizquel??? Did he have the range of the 5'9" 160# men that have played the position??? Was the 35 to 40 year old Jeter the same defensive SS he was in his youth??? Nope, but the current attempt to smear the 21 to 35 year old Jeter as some ham-handed hack wearing a skillet in lieu of a glove, with zero range and a defensive liability because the "metrics" say so, is the conversation that makes the baseball people we know, laugh.

 

[RoyDodger]

He hit 3 or 4 in the lineup vs 1 or 2 so he better have more HR's and RBI. Need to think about these things before you have ridiculous comparisons. Konerko did it right too it would seem and a good guy also. "More productive"? I think not......

Some people on this board get much too defensive. I didn't say that Konerko was more productive than Derek Jeter overall. Only that by the standard of home runs, rbis and OPS. I've been a baseball fan since the days of Ebbets Field (first game 1952) and have seen some of the greatest players in the history of baseball. Of course, Derek Jeter is a great and a future Hall of Famer. He's #6 in all-time hits behind Stan Musial and Tris Speaker!! That's some company. I was simply wondering why someone like Konerko, who has had an outstanding career, was getting almost no attention upon retirement after an 18 year career.

But when you rush to judgment on who makes the Baseball Hall of Fame, think about this member of the Hall: He played 15 years with five different teams. He had a lifetime BA of .306. He hit 78 homers and 870 rbis and an OPS of .781. Can you name him?

 

[mauconnfan]

Some people on this board get much too defensive. I didn't say that Konerko was more productive than Derek Jeter overall. Only that by the standard of home runs, rbis and OPS. I've been a baseball fan since the days of Ebbets Field (first game 1952) and have seen some of the greatest players in the history of baseball. Of course, Derek Jeter is a great and a future Hall of Famer. He's #6 in all-time hits behind Stan Musial and Tris Speaker!! That's some company. I was simply wondering why someone like Konerko, who has had an outstanding career, was getting almost no attention upon retirement after an 18 year career.

But when you rush to judgment on who makes the Baseball Hall of Fame, think about this member of the Hall: He played 15 years with five different teams. He had a lifetime BA of .306. He hit 78 homers and 870 rbis and an OPS of .781. Can you name him?

Without looking anything up I'm only guessing it was pitcher who could hit!! LOL..........

 

[rvwsleep]

George Kell. The problem is the Veteran's committee. Now broken into 3 separate committee's, they have allowed players in who weren't accepted by the BBWAA in the eligibility time frame allowed of 15 years. If you can't win the approval of 75% of the writers over a 15 year period by the people who watched you play, you probably don't deserve to be inducted.
BTW. Kell's offensive numbers blow Mazeroski's out of the water.
Maz 260 BA 299 OBP 667 OPS
Kell 306 BA 367 OBP 781 OPS
Maz's 667 OPS is the 3rd lowest for any non pitcher in the HoF who played after WW II and the 2 lower ( Aparicio and O Smith) were deemed much more valuable to their team as judged by MVP voting over the years.

 

[RoyDodger]

George Kell. The problem is the Veteran's committee. Now broken into 3 separate committee's, they have allowed players in who weren't accepted by the BBWAA in the eligibility time frame allowed of 15 years. If you can't win the approval of 75% of the writers over a 15 year period by the people who watched you play, you probably don't deserve to be inducted.
BTW. Kell's offensive numbers blow Mazeroski's out of the water.
Maz 260 BA 299 OBP 667 OPS
Kell 306 BA 367 OBP 781 OPS
Maz's 667 OPS is the 3rd lowest for any non pitcher in the HoF who played after WW II and the 2 lower ( Aparicio and O Smith) were deemed much more valuable to their team as judged by MVP voting over the years.

Excellent. Yes, the Veteran's Committee has been controversial in its choices at times, but there are also controversies over ballplayers it has refused to admit such as Gil Hodges, who was recognized during his career as one of the best, if not the best, first baseman of his time. He played on seven pennant winners and two World Championship teams (that's what they called them in those days before the current "World Series Champion" title took over) and managed the Mets to their first World Series title in 1969. I just noted from Hodges' Baseball Reference page that he received votes for MVP in nine different seasons (although he was never MVP) and was an All-Star eight times. I've always suspected that Hodges didn't make it because that Brooklyn Dodgers team already had four regulars in the HOF (Robinson, Reese, Snider and Campanella). The point I'm making is that the voting for the HOF can be quite subjective.

 

[Wally East]

He hit 3 or 4 in the lineup vs 1 or 2 so he better have more HR's and RBI. Need to think about these things before you have ridiculous comparisons. Konerko did it right too it would seem and a good guy also. "More productive"? I think not......

I think you've put the horse in front of the thing it usually pulls, at least in part. If Jeter had better power, he would've hit 3 or 4.

 

[Aluminny69]

Maz is in the HOF for hitting the Greatest Home Run Ever......

 

[johnnyc]

I was simply wondering why someone like Konerko, who has had an outstanding career, was getting almost no attention upon retirement after an 18 year career.

Playing in NY has something to do with it but also Jeter's playoff success which is a career in itself. But also it might be because of these new stats that people are looking at now. I was surprised to see that Jeter has a higher WAR stat by 44 points over Konerko. Maybe position played has something to do with it?

 

[rvwsleep]

Maz is in the HOF for hitting the Greatest Home Run Ever.

Wow. Didn't know you could get into the HoF for hitting just one home run. What about Bobby Thompson ? His lifetime WAR is close to Maz's and his offensive WAR is MUCH higher. A single event criteria would open the door to lots more players. How about pitching a perfect game in the World Series ?
Why not let everybody in ?

 

[rvwsleep]

Excellent. Yes, the Veteran's Committee has been controversial in its choices at times, but there are also controversies over ballplayers it has refused to admit such as Gil Hodges, who was recognized during his career as one of the best, if not the best, first baseman of his time. He played on seven pennant winners and two World Championship teams (that's what they called them in those days before the current "World Series Champion" title took over) and managed the Mets to their first World Series title in 1969. I just noted from Hodges' Baseball Reference page that he received votes for MVP in nine different seasons (although he was never MVP) and was an All-Star eight times. I've always suspected that Hodges didn't make it because that Brooklyn Dodgers team already had four regulars in the HOF (Robinson, Reese, Snider and Campanella). The point I'm making is that the voting for the HOF can be quite subjective.

I've gone back and forth on Hodges inclusion in the Hall. It's close but I think his career as a manger makes the difference.
An interesting side note. Hodges, from the people I know who actually saw him play, was an excellent defensive first baseman. Yet, his lifetime defensive WAR is way below average and he was graded out to be above average defensively in only 1 of the 14 full seasons that he played.

 

[sivad40]

Speaking of shortshops, is Alan Trammell a HOFer?