OT: A real class act.....

[Beemer]

There really isn't anything worse than calling a referee "a thief". One is in essence calling them a "cheat". Calling them incompetent, and idiot, blind, a jerk, etc. is one thing, but to question their integrity is a big old line to cross. In some sports that's a direct dismissal right there.

I think this may have prompted Ramos to come down harder than he might otherwise have done. Being called incompetent is one thing but having your integrity questioned is something else altogether.

 

[Checkmate]

Curious to see how the ESPN coverage analyzed it. Took until 8:20 on Golic & Wingo to discuss since Week 1 football dominated everything.
I generally like Golic and Wingo in discussing matters of this type because I feel they are very even handed and I think their discussion was generally spot on.

The points they made (very close to Patrick McEnroe) are as follows

1) The ref had every right to give the warning for coaching but where the ref really mishandled it was when she started to say. "I am not a cheater. I rather lose than cheat", the ref should have moderated this by saying. "I am not accusing you of cheating. I simply need to react when I see questionable behavior from your coaching box. This is only a warning to them, not you'). I agree strongly with this statement.

2) The game penalty should only have been made under the most extreme abuse and the language (by itself) was not sufficient to warrant that. I agree in general with this statement.

3) Serena plays a big part in the escalation of events. In their words, Serena should have been able to control her emotions and "let it go". Basically, unlike most of the abuse on the mens's side where they curse the officials out in language that can be harsher then Serena's, they do not generally persist over multiple points or games. They curse the official out, then they get back to the business of tennis. I generally agree with this statement although it should be pointed out that there can never be a scientific formula for what is too much and different officials may have different levels of tolerance. Welcome to the human condition and consequences for your actions.

4) No real mention of the gender inequity accusations. Agree that this is not a serious (i.e systemic) issue.

5) Saved the best for last. Naomi handled herself beautifully and was by far the better player. She earned the championship and it is a shame her victory should have this blemish on it. Totally agree and reiterate that her performance under such difficult and I may add hostile conditions makes the achievement even more impressive.

When the referee punishes your team for coaching he has accused you of cheating. And the coach acknowledged coaching and Serena acknowledged seeing the signal.

Granted the coaching rules are not always enforced.

 

[msf22b]

A wonderful, convincing amen to this saga from elder states-person, Martina.

Opinion | Martina Navratilova: What Serena Got Wrong

 

[meyers7]

I played and coached for many years, and believe me their are far worse things you can call a referee. In A League of Their Own I believe the worst word started with a “c”.

I have reffed for many years, and no, the worst thing is to question their integrity.

 

[oldude]

I have reffed for many years, and no, the worst thing is to question their integrity.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

 

[meyers7]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

It is an official's opinion as opposed to a coach's or player's opinion. And seeing as they are the ones making the decisions on what level the insults are....and how they should be dealt with.....hmmm?

 

[oldude]

It is an official's opinion as opposed to a coach's or player's opinion. And seeing as they are the ones making the decisions on what level the insults are....and how they should be dealt with.....hmmm?

It is one official’s opinion. I’ve had other officials tell me that they consider other types of remarks far more egregious: specifically racist, homophobic, sexually inappropriate, demeaning family members , etc.

I have previously indicated that Serena was out of line with her reaction, but my primary point was that if the referee had issued a soft warning to Serena as well as over the P.A. System to the coach’s box, rather than issuing a code violation for coaching, which almost all elite tennis players subsequently indicated occurs all the time, maybe, just maybe, that’s the end of it.

 

[CajunHusky]

Serena was wrong ...

The coach admits he was coaching; Billie Jean King says coaching goes on all the time and should be allowed but it isn't. Ramos with decades of experience is known to strictly enforce the rules. Mary Carillo says he was coaching and Ramos was correct. WARNING

Serena broke her racket. A MANDATORY penalty. One female commentator dared anyone to come up with an instance a broken racket was not penalized. POINT penalty, again mandatory the umpire had no choice.

She continued to argue and berate the umpire slowing the match and making a spectacle of the final match.

Is their a double standard? quite probably. But this match was not an example of that. And I don't believe Serena's actions were prompted by feelings of sexism even though she claims they were.

 

[Sluconn Husky]

And I don't believe Serena's actions were prompted by feelings of sexism even though she claims they were.

This sexism nonsense is stemming from her and many of her defenders claim' that Rafael Nadal had a similar outburst and wasn't given a game penalty. Nadal had been overheard telling the umpire that the ump would never work one of Nadal's matches again. That's supposed to be the similarity. Nadal did not, however, call the umpire a thief and a liar, or berate him for minutes on end demanding apologies. I actually thought Ramos was pretty lenient considering her personal diatribe against him went on and on. He waited until she impugned his professional integrity before giving her the 3rd penalty.

Depressingly, I'm still seeing endless excuses and defenses of her behavior.

 

[Bronx23]

Agreed. But if they aren't going to get rid of the no coaching rule, they should at least punish the coach, not the player. Throw him out.

My guess is the rule is changed by the end of the year. My 2nd guess is everyone writing about the rule change will call Serena for a quote. 3rd guess - they won't be able to print what she says.

So I don't completely overreact to you're third guess - it implies it is unprintable!
To my memory whether you agree with her behavior or not, there were no expletives that I heard.
So I have to wonder about why you would go there?
You took a reasonable post and turned it into ....
Bronx23

 

[JustinesGuy]

There really isn't anything worse than calling a referee "a thief". One is in essence calling them a "cheat". Calling them incompetent, and idiot, blind, a jerk, etc. is one thing, but to question their integrity is a big old line to cross. In some sports that's a direct dismissal right there.

The chair should have ejected her.
Completely outrageous. This is not her first time pulling these antics. We remember her tirade against a meek lines women over a foot fault. Common demonator she was being out played by Kim clijesters and lost it. What makes me really mad is she’s smart enough to pull out the female card in an attempt to save face.

Anyways I think she’s a major away from most majors all time... good luck

 

[Checkmate]

2018 US Open

Code Violations

Men 86

Women 22

hmmm

 

[temery]

2018 US Open

Code Violations

Men 86

Women 22

hmmm

25 men were fined

10 women were fined

The argument she was treated differently because she's a woman, has no basis in fact.

 

[meyers7]

It is one official’s opinion. I’ve had other officials tell me that they consider other types of remarks far more egregious: specifically racist, homophobic, sexually inappropriate, demeaning family members , etc.

Ehhh, it's what is taught in classes. So it's pretty much universal, at least in the soccer world.

I have previously indicated that Serena was out of line with her reaction, but my primary point was that if the referee had issued a soft warning to Serena as well as over the P.A. System to the coach’s box, rather than issuing a code violation for coaching, which almost all elite tennis players subsequently indicated occurs all the time, maybe, just maybe, that’s the end of it.

Or if Williams had just shut up and played, that would have been the end of it too.

 

[Beemer]

25 men were fined

10 women were fined

The argument she was treated differently because she's a woman, has no basis in fact.

That won't deter her or her supporters unfortunately. Talk about embarrassing your sport...

 

[oldude]

Ehhh, it's what is taught in classes. So it's pretty much universal, at least in the soccer world.

You were a soccer ref? Hell, I thought we were talking about a real sport like football, baseball or basketball...

Or if Williams had just shut up and played, that would have been the end of it too.

That really is a bit harsh. All players have the right to question a referee's call. As I said, Serena went overboard, but there's no reason to overreact by making such a belligerent remark.

 

[Beemer]

It appears that at least some umpires don't like what happened to their colleague:

Umpires may boycott Serena Williams matches after outburst at US Open final

 

[temery]

That really is a bit harsh. All players have the right to question a referee's call.

Serena was not penalized for questioning a call. She was penalized for abusive behavior.

And I don't know of many sports where the player has a right to argue with a ref. Questioning a call is asking, "are you sure?"

 

[oldude]

Serena was not penalized for questioning a call. She was penalized for abusive behavior.

And I don't know of many sports where the player has a right to argue with a ref. Questioning a call is asking, "are you sure?"

I don't disagree. What I do not like is the suggestion that she should have just, "shut up and played." The tone of that remark is both angry and confrontational. In essence, it is a reaction to Serena's behavior in the same manner that Serena reacted to the umpire's original call.

There are a couple hundred better ways to express that thought. How about, "Serena should have tried to calm herself down and focus on playing her opponent." Doesn't that sound better, less reactionary and probably the way that you would speak to someone in a reasonable manner?

 

[temery]

I don't disagree. What I do not like is the suggestion that she should have just, "shut up and played." The tone of that remark is both angry and confrontational. In essence, it is a reaction to Serena's behavior in the same manner that Serena reacted to the umpire's original call.

There are a couple hundred better ways to express that thought. How about, "Serena should have tried to calm herself down and focus on playing her opponent." Doesn't that sound better, less reactionary and probably the way that you would speak to someone in a reasonable manner?

You say potato, Myers said patato. If it was said to her directly, I agree it would have been a bit too much.

 

[oldude]

Here's an interesting article which attempts to deal with the litany of problems from all angles.

Serena: Nobody’s right, when everybody’s wrong

 

[uconndoit]

 

[Sluconn Husky]

I don't understand the point of the above video except that it seems to be a red herring regarding Serena's behavior. Some male players smashing rackets or chewing out refs (mainly McEnroe), plus one clubbing himself in the face. Are they trying to exonerate her? Point out that male players have behaved poorly in the past, or suggest that female players haven't? I mean the word "men" is in all caps and highlighted red so I figure they're the villain of the piece, but I'm not sure what it has to do with Serena's actions.

 

[uconndoit]

I don't understand the point of the above video except that it seems to be a red herring regarding Serena's behavior. Some male players smashing rackets or chewing out refs (mainly McEnroe), plus one clubbing himself in the face. Are they trying to exonerate her? Point out that male players have behaved poorly in the past, or suggest that female players haven't? I mean the word "men" is in all caps and highlighted red so I figure they're the villain of the piece, but I'm not sure what it has to do with Serena's actions.

Dig deep - it'll come to you.

 

[Plebe]

4. Serena is already the most drug tested athlete on the tour. She has recently been informed that the outfit she wore at the French Open will no longer be allowed. She got seriously jobbed at the US Open in 2004, got called for a dubious foot fault at a critical juncture in 2009, had point taken away at a critical juncture for screaming while hitting a clear winner in 2011. Enough is enough.

I agree with much of your post, but not with parts of point 4. There is absolutely no excuse for the way Serena threatened the line judge who called her for the foot fault in 2009. None. And the hindrance call in the Stosur match was correct: Serena screamed out when Stosur still had a play on the ball, and in fact she got her racket on it.

But yes, the egregious line call in 2004 (actually, an overrule that was mysteriously never announced) was by far the single worst call I have ever seen in all my years of watching tennis. So much so that it became the impetus for implementation of the challenge system.

 

[Sluconn Husky]

Dig deep - it'll come to you.

Sorry, I see no legitimate point to it.

 

[SVCBeercats]

Had the weak tennis organization nipped it in the bud, there would be no Serena situation. Why no one didn't pound out McEnroe was always a mystery to me. McEnroe and Connors behavior caused me to not watch tennis.

 

[SVCBeercats]

Or if Williams had just shut up and played, that would have been the end of it too.
That really is a bit harsh. All players have the right to question a referee's call. As I said, Serena went overboard, but there's no reason to overreact by making such a belligerent remark.

So if "shut up and played" is a "bit harsh" growing into a "belligerent remark," then how do you classify Serena remarks?

 

[meyers7]

That really is a bit harsh. All players have the right to question a referee's call. As I said, Serena went overboard, but there's no reason to overreact by making such a belligerent remark.

Eh, I don't think they have a "right". They take it, and refs let them get away with it, but I don't believe there are any rights to question calls and argue with refs. Other than the challenges with Hawk-eye (which really doesn't apply here).

Oh, and I do not consider it belligerent at all. Maybe you've never played sports before??

 

[oldude]

So if "shut up and played" is a "bit harsh" growing into a "belligerent remark," then how do you classify Serena remarks?

If you notice in my response to temery’s post, I equate Serena’s remarks with Meyers7 “shut up and played” remark.

I don't disagree. What I do not like is the suggestion that she should have just, "shut up and played." The tone of that remark is both angry and confrontational. In essence, it is a reaction to Serena's behavior in the same manner that Serena reacted to the umpire's original call.

There are a couple hundred better ways to express that thought. How about, "Serena should have tried to calm herself down and focus on playing her opponent." Doesn't that sound better, less reactionary and probably the way that you would speak to someone in a reasonable manner?