OT: - A real class act..... | Page 4 | The Boneyard

OT: A real class act.....

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temery

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Well, you are right in that you don't know me but you took it upon yourself to try and label me-- "those of your bent"-- anyway. Not cool.

There wasn't one thing that happened in that match that had anything to do with Serena's gender, or race for that matter since you brought it up. She simply acted like a petulant and entitled child before dragging out the gender card. A great example for girls everywhere would've been to channel her anger over the coaching calls--admitted by her coach, incidentally--and compete like mad for the title. Instead she sulked, complained, vented, and tried to make herself a total victim in an absurd fashion. Sorry if that take bothers you.

Agreed. But if they aren't going to get rid of the no coaching rule, they should at least punish the coach, not the player. Throw him out.

My guess is the rule is changed by the end of the year. My 2nd guess is everyone writing about the rule change will call Serena for a quote. 3rd guess - they won't be able to print what she says.
 

Sluconn Husky

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Agreed. But if they aren't going to get rid of the no coaching rule, they should at least punish the coach, not the player. Throw him out.

I'm okay with that, and I also understand Serena's being upset. Had she made her point(s) without both getting personal and going on endlessly she probably would've been fine. She let everything get to her badly and turned it into a Williams vs Ramos thing.

And for anyone interested, a former chair umpire who once penalized McEnroe backs Ramos.

It is Serena Williams who owes an apology to umpire Carlos Ramos
 
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Some people on other message boards I follow have suggested this meltdown was a deliberate tactic on Willliams' part to throw Osaka off her game. If it was it didn't work out the way Serena intended, Osaka kept her cool and kept playing her game.
 

oldude

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My 2 cents:

Osaka was the better player and deserved to win and Serena overreacted to the penalty.

Beyond that, after the match, there was a virtual “who’s who” of elite tennis players (Evert, both McEnroes, Roddick, King and many others) who were incredulous that the referee penalized Serena in a major championship for receiving coaching, which players agree goes on all the time; and also agreed that men get away with far worse than calling the referee a “thief”.

A number of players indicated that they had done far worse and received nothing more than a “soft” warning from a referee, advising them not to do it again or they would lose a point.

I have no idea why the referee in question felt as if he had to penalize Serena when her coach gestured with his hands that she should come to the net more. It seemed like a pretty innocuous gesture imo, and frankly, when Serena tried it, Osaka hammered several passing shots right by her. He could have issued a warning, and that might have been the end of it.

In baseball, basketball and football, I’ve seen countless coaches and players go off on umpires and officials, including the Little Italian guy, saying far worse things than Serena. In most instances, a good official will first ignore the comments, secondly warn the offender, and then, and only then, T them up, penalize them or send them to the showers.

IMO, the referee was wrong not to initially issue a warning either for the coaching infraction or Serena’s comment to him. Serena’s overreaction was also wrong - and, as we all know two wrongs ........
 
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My 2 cents:

Osaka was the better player and deserved to win and Serena overreacted to the penalty.

Beyond that, after the match, there was a virtual “who’s who” of elite tennis players (Evert, both McEnroes, Roddick, King and many others) who were incredulous that the referee penalized Serena in a major championship for receiving coaching, which players agree goes on all the time; and also agreed that men get away with far worse than calling the referee a “thief”.

A number of players indicated that they had done far worse and received nothing more than a “soft” warning from a referee, advising them not to do it again or they would lose a point.

I have no idea why the referee in question felt as if he had to penalize Serena when her coach gestured with his hands that she should come to the net more. It seemed like a pretty innocuous gesture imo, and frankly, when Serena tried it, Osaka hammered several passing shots right by her. He could have issued a warning, and that might have been the end of it.

In baseball, basketball and football, I’ve seen countless coaches and players go off on umpires and officials, including the Little Italian guy, saying far worse things than Serena. In most instances, a good official will first ignore the comments, secondly warn the offender, and then, and only then, T them up, penalize them or send them to the showers.

IMO, the referee was wrong not to initially issue a warning either for the coaching infraction or Serena’s comment to him. Serena’s overreaction was also wrong - and, as we all know two wrongs ...

He did give a warning for coaching. That started the progression.
 

oldude

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He did give a warning for coaching. That started the progression.
I should have been clearer in my post. Initially, the referee issued Serena a warning for coaching that resulted in a code violation, the first of three, that ultimately lead to a game point awarded to Osaka. My argument is that the referee could have chosen to issue a “soft” warning for the coaching infraction as well as being called a theif, in an effort to diffuse the situation. Both incidents were relatively minor imo. The racquet destruction was pretty flagrant, and impossible to ignore.

Serena was pretty wound up, she was losing and maybe a soft warning in either instance wouldn’t have made a difference. But maybe it would have, and today we could have simply celebrated the emergence of one great young champion along with the remarkable effort and perseverance of the greatest women’s tennis player in history, rather than discussing an unfortunate series of incidents that overshadowed two remarkable tennis players.
 

Carnac

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Without reflecting on the events of the day, I was very happy Osaka win the match. I've been following the Williams sisters from the beginning. Yesterday belonged to Osaka. It wasn't given to her, she outplayed her opponent.

It was NOT Serena's day. Once the chair umpire got in her head, she was done. She was so mad and pissed off at him, she could not concentrate on the match, which is why she lost in straight sets, 6-2, 6-4. :eek:
 
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temery

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I should have been clearer in my post. Initially, the referee issued Serena a warning for coaching that resulted in a code violation, the first of three, that ultimately lead to a game point awarded to Osaka. My argument is that the referee could have chosen to issue a “soft” warning for the coaching infraction as well as being called a theif, in an effort to diffuse the situation. Both incidents were relatively minor imo. The racquet destruction was pretty flagrant, and impossible to ignore.

Serena was pretty wound up, she was losing and maybe a soft warning in either instance wouldn’t have made a difference. But maybe it would have, and today we could have simply celebrated the emergence of one great young champion along with the remarkable effort and perseverance of the greatest women’s tennis player in history, rather than discussing an unfortunate series of incidents that overshadowed two remarkable tennis players.

The problem with a soft warning to a player is the coach wouldn't know unless told.

The only rational solution is to get rid of the rule.
 

meyers7

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Beyond that, after the match, there was a virtual “who’s who” of elite tennis players (Evert, both McEnroes, Roddick, King and many others) who were incredulous that the referee penalized Serena in a major championship for receiving coaching, which players agree goes on all the time; and also agreed that men get away with far worse than calling the referee a “thief”.
There really isn't anything worse than calling a referee "a thief". One is in essence calling them a "cheat". Calling them incompetent, and idiot, blind, a jerk, etc. is one thing, but to question their integrity is a big old line to cross. In some sports that's a direct dismissal right there.
 

oldude

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There really isn't anything worse than calling a referee "a thief". One is in essence calling them a "cheat". Calling them incompetent, and idiot, blind, a jerk, etc. is one thing, but to question their integrity is a big old line to cross. In some sports that's a direct dismissal right there.
I played and coached for many years, and believe me their are far worse things you can call a referee. In A League of Their Own I believe the worst word started with a “c”.
 

oldude

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The problem with a soft warning to a player is the coach wouldn't know unless told.

The only rational solution is to get rid of the rule.
No, the referee could announce over the loudspeaker a general warning, “There is to be no coaching from the players box”, just like she does when the fans get a little rambunctious when the players are trying to serve. At the same time the referee should call in both players and advise them of the soft warning.

Think about how many times you’ve watched a basketball game that’s starting to get a little out of control when the refs warn the players and then call in both coaches to reiterate their warning. If that doesn’t work, they start T-ing people up.
 

eebmg

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Curious to see how the ESPN coverage analyzed it. Took until 8:20 on Golic & Wingo to discuss since Week 1 football dominated everything.
I generally like Golic and Wingo in discussing matters of this type because I feel they are very even handed and I think their discussion was generally spot on.

The points they made (very close to Patrick McEnroe) are as follows

1) The ref had every right to give the warning for coaching but where the ref really mishandled it was when she started to say. "I am not a cheater. I rather lose than cheat", the ref should have moderated this by saying. "I am not accusing you of cheating. I simply need to react when I see questionable behavior from your coaching box. This is only a warning to them, not you'). I agree strongly with this statement.

2) The game penalty should only have been made under the most extreme abuse and the language (by itself) was not sufficient to warrant that. I agree in general with this statement.

3) Serena plays a big part in the escalation of events. In their words, Serena should have been able to control her emotions and "let it go". Basically, unlike most of the abuse on the mens's side where they curse the officials out in language that can be harsher then Serena's, they do not generally persist over multiple points or games. They curse the official out, then they get back to the business of tennis. I generally agree with this statement although it should be pointed out that there can never be a scientific formula for what is too much and different officials may have different levels of tolerance. Welcome to the human condition and consequences for your actions.

4) No real mention of the gender inequity accusations. Agree that this is not a serious (i.e systemic) issue.

5) Saved the best for last. Naomi handled herself beautifully and was by far the better player. She earned the championship and it is a shame her victory should have this blemish on it. Totally agree and reiterate that her performance under such difficult and I may add hostile conditions makes the achievement even more impressive. :D
 
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There really isn't anything worse than calling a referee "a thief". One is in essence calling them a "cheat". Calling them incompetent, and idiot, blind, a jerk, etc. is one thing, but to question their integrity is a big old line to cross. In some sports that's a direct dismissal right there.

I think this may have prompted Ramos to come down harder than he might otherwise have done. Being called incompetent is one thing but having your integrity questioned is something else altogether.
 
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Curious to see how the ESPN coverage analyzed it. Took until 8:20 on Golic & Wingo to discuss since Week 1 football dominated everything.
I generally like Golic and Wingo in discussing matters of this type because I feel they are very even handed and I think their discussion was generally spot on.

The points they made (very close to Patrick McEnroe) are as follows

1) The ref had every right to give the warning for coaching but where the ref really mishandled it was when she started to say. "I am not a cheater. I rather lose than cheat", the ref should have moderated this by saying. "I am not accusing you of cheating. I simply need to react when I see questionable behavior from your coaching box. This is only a warning to them, not you'). I agree strongly with this statement.

2) The game penalty should only have been made under the most extreme abuse and the language (by itself) was not sufficient to warrant that. I agree in general with this statement.

3) Serena plays a big part in the escalation of events. In their words, Serena should have been able to control her emotions and "let it go". Basically, unlike most of the abuse on the mens's side where they curse the officials out in language that can be harsher then Serena's, they do not generally persist over multiple points or games. They curse the official out, then they get back to the business of tennis. I generally agree with this statement although it should be pointed out that there can never be a scientific formula for what is too much and different officials may have different levels of tolerance. Welcome to the human condition and consequences for your actions.

4) No real mention of the gender inequity accusations. Agree that this is not a serious (i.e systemic) issue.

5) Saved the best for last. Naomi handled herself beautifully and was by far the better player. She earned the championship and it is a shame her victory should have this blemish on it. Totally agree and reiterate that her performance under such difficult and I may add hostile conditions makes the achievement even more impressive. :D

When the referee punishes your team for coaching he has accused you of cheating. And the coach acknowledged coaching and Serena acknowledged seeing the signal.

Granted the coaching rules are not always enforced.
 

meyers7

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I played and coached for many years, and believe me their are far worse things you can call a referee. In A League of Their Own I believe the worst word started with a “c”.
I have reffed for many years, and no, the worst thing is to question their integrity.
 

meyers7

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You are certainly entitled to your opinion.
It is an official's opinion as opposed to a coach's or player's opinion. And seeing as they are the ones making the decisions on what level the insults are....and how they should be dealt with.....hmmm?
 

oldude

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It is an official's opinion as opposed to a coach's or player's opinion. And seeing as they are the ones making the decisions on what level the insults are....and how they should be dealt with.....hmmm?
It is one official’s opinion. I’ve had other officials tell me that they consider other types of remarks far more egregious: specifically racist, homophobic, sexually inappropriate, demeaning family members , etc.

I have previously indicated that Serena was out of line with her reaction, but my primary point was that if the referee had issued a soft warning to Serena as well as over the P.A. System to the coach’s box, rather than issuing a code violation for coaching, which almost all elite tennis players subsequently indicated occurs all the time, maybe, just maybe, that’s the end of it.
 
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Serena was wrong ...

The coach admits he was coaching; Billie Jean King says coaching goes on all the time and should be allowed but it isn't. Ramos with decades of experience is known to strictly enforce the rules. Mary Carillo says he was coaching and Ramos was correct. WARNING

Serena broke her racket. A MANDATORY penalty. One female commentator dared anyone to come up with an instance a broken racket was not penalized. POINT penalty, again mandatory the umpire had no choice.

She continued to argue and berate the umpire slowing the match and making a spectacle of the final match.

Is their a double standard? quite probably. But this match was not an example of that. And I don't believe Serena's actions were prompted by feelings of sexism even though she claims they were.
 

Sluconn Husky

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And I don't believe Serena's actions were prompted by feelings of sexism even though she claims they were.

This sexism nonsense is stemming from her and many of her defenders claim' that Rafael Nadal had a similar outburst and wasn't given a game penalty. Nadal had been overheard telling the umpire that the ump would never work one of Nadal's matches again. That's supposed to be the similarity. Nadal did not, however, call the umpire a thief and a liar, or berate him for minutes on end demanding apologies. I actually thought Ramos was pretty lenient considering her personal diatribe against him went on and on. He waited until she impugned his professional integrity before giving her the 3rd penalty.

Depressingly, I'm still seeing endless excuses and defenses of her behavior.
 
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Agreed. But if they aren't going to get rid of the no coaching rule, they should at least punish the coach, not the player. Throw him out.

My guess is the rule is changed by the end of the year. My 2nd guess is everyone writing about the rule change will call Serena for a quote. 3rd guess - they won't be able to print what she says.
So I don't completely overreact to you're third guess - it implies it is unprintable!
To my memory whether you agree with her behavior or not, there were no expletives that I heard.
So I have to wonder about why you would go there?
You took a reasonable post and turned it into ....
Bronx23
 
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