Zion Williamson

[superjohn]

No, it's just to illustrate the fact that 3 and a Championship is not peanuts. People seem to think Self hasn't won much in the NCAAs, given how long he has coached. They discount it at any rate. Shouldn't do.

I just don't get bringing Calhoun into it. Calhoun built a program out of nothing and did it with minimal top flight recruits compared to all the other top programs. Self walked into one of the top programs of all-time and kept them at that level. Unlike Calhoun he has basically had his pick of the top recruits year in and year out.

He's done a great job of maintaining Kansas basketball and getting a bunch of #1 and #2 seeds but not sure there has ever been another coach who has been bounced more early in the tournament as a #1 and #2 seed.

This year was is best coaching job IMO but this team didn't have the horses to win it all, a bunch of his other teams did and they flamed out too early in the tourny.

The guy I'm sick of hearing about is Izzo. If you didn't actually watch college hoops and just listened to the talking heads you would think Izzo is the greatest coach of all-time.

 

[intlzncster]

I just don't get bringing Calhoun into it. Calhoun built a program out of nothing and did it with minimal top flight recruits compared to all the other top programs. Self walked into one of the top programs of all-time and kept them at that level. Unlike Calhoun he has basically had his pick of the top recruits year in and year out.

He's done a great job of maintaining Kansas basketball and getting a bunch of #1 and #2 seeds but not sure there has ever been another coach who has been bounced more early in the tournament as a #1 and #2 seed.

This year was is best coaching job IMO but this team didn't have the horses to win it all, a bunch of his other teams did and they flamed out too early in the tourny.

The guy I'm sick of hearing about is Izzo. If you didn't actually watch college hoops and just listened to the talking heads you would think Izzo is the greatest coach of all-time.

I think people are too critical of Self in general. Sure, he's not in the GOAT conversation, not near it, but he's still a great coach. Yes, he's flamed out too early too often; part of that might be a result of playing in the Big 12; overall comp isn't as good there. It's almost like people hold it against him that he hasn't won 3 championships or something.

It's so damn hard to win multiple championships. Only 14 guys have ever won more than one. And only 6 have won more than two. Jay Wright with a legitimate shot to join that group.

 

[TheChamps990411]

This video of Zion Williamson getting his vertical jump measured

After basically showing he could touch the top of the backboard one of his teamates comes and body bumps him and he then bumps the kid back and sends him flying. I noticed the kid is basically just muscle and not much fat! I figured hed be a little chunky weighing 280lbs at 6`7 but nope! All muscle. This kid is a man amongst boys physically. I would not be surprised if he puts up some Glenn Robinson stats as a frosh.

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

Are you confusing Randle with Terrence Jones? I remember Jones's first few games for UK being nuts and him looking better than a lot of folks anticipated.

That was my thought exactly. Jones looked like a HOF in that memorable stretch ( I have vivid images still in my head of him acting like he already had a bust in Springfield)but has completely disappeared from hoops. Maybe he’s still in the Gleague or Euro but I don’t recall him ever doing anything of night in the league. Bust in Springfield? More like bust in the draft! Randle however is a very good NBA player and was a few years later.

 

[Fishy]

I cannot imagine what that kid would be like if he got rid of the baby fat.

 

[auror]

I just don't get bringing Calhoun into it. Calhoun built a program out of nothing and did it with minimal top flight recruits compared to all the other top programs. Self walked into one of the top programs of all-time and kept them at that level. Unlike Calhoun he has basically had his pick of the top recruits year in and year out.

He's done a great job of maintaining Kansas basketball and getting a bunch of #1 and #2 seeds but not sure there has ever been another coach who has been bounced more early in the tournament as a #1 and #2 seed.

This year was is best coaching job IMO but this team didn't have the horses to win it all, a bunch of his other teams did and they flamed out too early in the tourny.

The guy I'm sick of hearing about is Izzo. If you didn't actually watch college hoops and just listened to the talking heads you would think Izzo is the greatest coach of all-time.

It's a UConn message board. People understand Calhoun's accomplishments.

It's the context needed to give proper credit to what Self has done without hashing out Self's career nitty gritty. If he's even remotely in the same ballpark (and by achieving some things quicker it's hard to deny), it stands to reason it would be worth TV talking heads discussing him as a coach with merit.

 

[HuskyFich]

I wish the kid nothing but success, but I hope he is who ends up getting duke exposed. He (like Brian Bowen) committed to Duke out of nowhere and is the most obvious 1 and done player in probably 5 years.

Please?

 

[Scrutineer]

Self has won a major conference title 14 straight years. He has an 82% winning percentage at Kansas... in major conference play.

He has 3 Final Fours in 24 years (including a title). Jim Calhoun didn't get to the Final Four until his 26th season. Calhoun had a 72% winning percentage at UConn... including non-conference cupcakes.

Hell he won at Illinois, which no one aside from Bruce Weber with Self's recruits could do before or after since the '80s.

That's all well and good, but give Calhoun some credit for raising Northeastern from D2 to D1 as part of his career and then winning three NC's at UConn, in four Final Fours, in 13 years, after taking over a basket case of a program.

UConn was not exactly a school with a long history of major success before he arrived and he came into the Big East when it was at its peak. The Big 12 doesn't hold a candle to what the Big East was during Calhoun's time.

Self should get credit for being a great recruiter, at a school with a storied history, in a mediocre league, but only one NC out of three Final Fours for all the hype he gets is hardly a match for Calhoun.

 

[Kemba'sYogurt]

I wish the kid nothing but success, but I hope he is who ends up getting duke exposed. He (like Brian Bowen) committed to Duke out of nowhere and is the most obvious 1 and done player in probably 5 years.

Please?

Just to side with the kid and point out a different perspective, the kid was looking to stay in the Carolinas. The perceived leaders were Clemson and South Carolina so maybe it could just be that he realized he could stay local and receive the best coaching.

However, it definitely does raise some eyebrows as literally nobody had any indication Duke was even in the discussion really.

 

[auror]

That's all well and good, but give Calhoun some credit for raising Northeastern from D2 to D1 as part of his career and then winning three NC's at UConn, in four Final Fours, in 13 years, after taking over a basket case of a program.

UConn was not exactly a school with a long history of major success before he arrived and he came into the Big East when it was at its peak. The Big 12 doesn't hold a candle to what the Big East was during Calhoun's time.

Self should get credit for being a great recruiter, at a school with a storied history, in a mediocre league, but only one NC out of three Final Fours for all the hype he gets is hardly a match for Calhoun.

The mistake you're still making is underrating Self. I'm not denigrating Calhoun by using him as context for Self's success, I'm complimenting Self by the flattery of even bringing up Jim's name in the same paragraph.

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

Just to side with the kid and point out a different perspective, the kid was looking to stay in the Carolinas. The perceived leaders were Clemson and South Carolina so maybe it could just be that he realized he could stay local and receive the best coaching.

However, it definitely does raise some eyebrows as literally nobody had any indication Duke was even in the discussion really.

Duke is ALWAYS in the discussion

 

[huskyblooz]

Cmon guys. Let’s give Self some credit. What he’s done in the Big 12 is astounding!

 

[Huskyforlife]

"Just an athlete"

 

[whosurdaddy2720]

"Just an athlete"

Yikes!

I hate dook as much as the next guy but Zion looks like a player for real. Size, strength, athleticism and he plays with intensity?!? Even his ball handling and court vision seem above average.

If he can hit that outside shot consistently he's gonna be a serious problem.

 

[kobe]

Yikes!

I hate dook as much as the next guy but Zion looks like a player for real. Size, strength, athleticism and he plays with intensity?!? Even his ball handling and court vision seem above average.

If he can hit that outside shot constantly he's gonna be a serious problem.

he's way more skilled than people give him credit for. mostly because his highlight tapes are all dunks (and rightfully so).

 

[Huskyforlife]

Yikes!

I hate dook as much as the next guy but Zion looks like a player for real. Size, strength, athleticism and he plays with intensity?!? Even his ball handling and court vision seem above average.

If he can hit that outside shot constantly he's gonna be a serious problem.

They are and he is. He’s a matchup nightmare at PF, where he doesn’t need a lethal jumper, but should still work on making it respectable.

 

[Kitaman]

It’s great when people who just watch 10 second clips of his best dunks think he’s just a raw athlete.

There is some history here:

 

[BIIIG]

Playing at Duke will drastically stall his progression for the NBA. Coach Kryzypoopski cares more about winning titles than player progression. Nothing wrong with winning titles, but if Zion wants to be the next big thing, Duke was not the place to go. Coach K is going to use Zion's strengths which will work at the college level, but when he gets to the NBA and has less of a size advantage, brute strength will not be enough to get buckets. Duke already has Barrett and Redish in their lineup there is no incentive to have Zion become a better shooter or ball handler. Just look at Jahlil Okafor. Guy was a stud at Duke, but got to the NBA and suddenly he didn't have the size advantages he had in college. Calipari might not win as many titles, but the progression players make under his coaching for a year or two is leaps and bounds ahead of what they get under Krapzyeski.

Just look at some of the 5 star recruits Duke has ruined over the past 5 years.
DUKE: Jahlil Okafor, Tyus Jones, Chase Jeter, Derryck Thornton, Frank Jackson, Marques Bolden

 

[intlzncster]

Playing at Duke will drastically stall his progression for the NBA. Coach Kryzypoopski cares more about winning titles than player progression. Nothing wrong with winning titles, but if Zion wants to be the next big thing, Duke was not the place to go. Coach K is going to use Zion's strengths which will work at the college level, but when he gets to the NBA and has less of a size advantage, brute strength will not be enough to get buckets. Duke already has Barrett and Redish in their lineup there is no incentive to have Zion become a better shooter or ball handler. Just look at Jahlil Okafor. Guy was a stud at Duke, but got to the NBA and suddenly he didn't have the size advantages he had in college. Calipari might not win as many titles, but the progression players make under his coaching for a year or two is leaps and bounds ahead of what they get under Krapzyeski.

Just look at some of the 5 star recruits Duke has ruined over the past 5 years.
DUKE: Jahlil Okafor, Tyus Jones, Chase Jeter, Derryck Thornton, Frank Jackson, Marques Bolden

If you're good, your good. Definitely didn't hurt Jason Tatum. Didn't hurt Kyrie. Ingram.

A lot of those guys weren't really that great though. Jahlil you could call from a mile away, couldn't play a lick of D. Tyus jumped too early, but capitalized on championship hype.

Zion is on the Kyrie/Tatum track. Remains to be seen if he can reach his potential.

 

[LIuconn]

Just look at some of the 5 star recruits Duke has ruined over the past 5 years.
DUKE: Jahlil Okafor, Tyus Jones, Chase Jeter, Derryck Thornton, Frank Jackson, Marques Bolden

Maybe it was the ranking system that was wrong, not Duke. After some time it all comes out in the wash

 

[Kenny11]

He’s a monster. I wonder if nba teams worry about his long term health though. To be that explosive and yet carry so much weight it definitely makes me wonder if he could play into his 30s without dropping some serious weight.

 

[superjohn]

He’s a monster. I wonder if nba teams worry about his long term health though. To be that explosive and yet carry so much weight it definitely makes me wonder if he could play into his 30s without dropping some serious weight.

After marveling at his sheer size and athleticism that was my next thought. The human body isn't meant to do that long term at that size. Makes me think of Bo Jackson.

 

[intlzncster]

After marveling at his sheer size and athleticism that was my next thought. The human body isn't meant to do that long term at that size. Makes me think of Bo Jackson.

Maybe, but guys like LeBron do exist. I think, if he shows the drive, he'll lean up a bit in the pros. Will be interesting to watch.

 

[BIIIG]

He’s a monster. I wonder if nba teams worry about his long term health though. To be that explosive and yet carry so much weight it definitely makes me wonder if he could play into his 30s without dropping some serious weight.

Couldn't agree more. Not to say that he can't play long term, but you definitely do have to take that into consideration.

Wonder what it would have been like if computers media were as prevalent when Shaq was around during his high school days

 

[BIIIG]

If you're good, your good. Definitely didn't hurt Jason Tatum. Didn't hurt Kyrie. Ingram.

A lot of those guys weren't really that great though. Jahlil you could call from a mile away, couldn't play a lick of D. Tyus jumped too early, but capitalized on championship hype.

Zion is on the Kyrie/Tatum track. Remains to be seen if he can reach his potential.

There's definitely something to be said about that. I mean there were plenty of guys that made the jump straight from high school to the NBA and had great careers (Garnett, Kob, McGrady, etc.), so if you're good you're good is definitely true. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that when you look at the top recruits, the one and done players, that Duke has had, and then the ones Kentucky has had, it seems like in the long term the Kentucky players fair far better.

Over the past ten years here are the relevant one and done players from each:
DUKE: Kyrie Irving, Austin Rivers, Jabari Parker, Jahlil Okafor, Tyus Jones, Justise Winslow, Brandon Ingram, Jayson Tatum
KENTUCKY: John Wall, DeMarcus Cousins, Eric Bledsoe, Brandon Knight, Anthony Davis, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Julius Randle, Devin Booker, Karl Anthony Towns, De'Aaron Fox, Bam Adebayo

And 6 of those 8 Duke players were a top 3 in their recruiting class. My point being that they were the types of guys who were already good as you said, they didn't progress in their sole college year. If you're a player who knows you are going to the NBA but are forced to go to college for one year wouldn't your biggest goal be progression? Duke has caught up to Kentucky in recruiting absolutely but Coach K has a ways to go in NBA readiness progression compared to Calipari.

 

[superjohn]

Couldn't agree more. Not to say that he can't play long term, but you definitely do have to take that into consideration.

Wonder what it would have been like if computers media were as prevalent when Shaq was around during his high school days

It would have been crazy. Shaq is still the biggest freak of nature in the history of sports.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Just look at some of the 5 star recruits Duke has ruined over the past 5 years.
DUKE: Jahlil Okafor, Tyus Jones, Chase Jeter, Derryck Thornton, Frank Jackson, Marques Bolden

I hate Duke as much as the next guy but the idea that K ruined these guys is silly. Daniel Orton's playing in Japan for god's sake. Did Cal ruin him in his one year at Kentucky?

 

[pj]

Duke has caught up to Kentucky in recruiting absolutely but Coach K has a ways to go in NBA readiness progression compared to Calipari.

They're both mediocre at development (compared to other top coaches) but K is better at winning than Calipari.

 

[auror]

They're both mediocre at development (compared to other top coaches) but K is better at winning than Calipari.

Cal has a much better record at winning against KenPom expectation in NCAA tournaments over the last 16 years than K. Like much, much better (ranked #2 vs. #329).

Of course, that's partially because K overachieves during the regular season and Cal underachieves.

 

[pj]

Cal has a much better record at winning against KenPom expectation in NCAA tournaments over the last 16 years than K. Like much, much better (ranked #2 vs. #329).

Of course, that's partially because K overachieves during the regular season and Cal underachieves.

Yeah, you need a comparison against talent level, not regular season performance. Cal is in a weak conference and has the luxury of playing poorly during the season. K not so much. So it's much easier for Cal to raise performance in the tourney.