WNBA considering expanding by 2 teams

[Beemer]

As I said in a previous thread the WNBA needs to seriously consider putting franchises in smaller cities that have a strong history of supporting women's basketball. This business of putting teams in these big cities where support has to basically be built from scratch either does not work at all (see most of the teams that have folded) or can take decades to develop.

 

[Txhoopsalot]

After checking box scores for the first week of play, it appears the benches of all teams are not very strong. Several players I never heard of. After the starting five, a big drop off in production. I knoew the fact that teams are not at full strength is a factor. And two teams, Indiana and Dallas, that don't appear to have a chance of success this year. So, I'm not seeing a need for expansion, just because out favorite UConn players were waived.

The weak benches are related to the pay structure. Teams have to pay their best players and then fill out the roster with the best players that fit under the salary cap, not the best remaining players.

 

[Pinhead]

Uh... Utah Starzz! Again? On another note I acknowledge Stewie's point regarding the WNBA missing out on the momentum and synergy of the just-completed college season by not having room for many notable grads.

 

[amb3096]

The bay area had a team in Sacramento (Monarchs) that went belly up. The last great frontier of Sacramento basketball has been a distant memory in the discourse of the decade, as this past November marked eleven years since the Sacramento Monarchs folded.

One of the eight inaugural WNBA teams, the Monarchs brought a title to the City of Trees, along with countless All-Stars, Hall of Famers and genuine success in the narrative woven into the league’s history. But just three years after bringing a ring to Sacramento, the Maloof family decided in 2009 to go all-in on the Kings, implying that the Monarchs were an after-thought despite their success in the city and adoration amongst the league.

Nor really a fair representation of the Maloof brothers. At the time, the players spoke highly of how the Maloofs supported the team. They frequently attended the games and were always engaged with both the fans and the players. Then the recession hit, and they couldn't continue to afford to lose money on the Monarchs and put the Kings at risk. So they put the team up for sale, there were no takers, and the team folded.

Maybe a multi-billionaire owner would have been able to weather the storm, but your average multi-millionaire owner will always be at risk of having the monetary losses pile up since the team is more likely to lose money than not. At some point, they will need to stop the charitable donations.

 

[amb3096]

I wonder if college teams with a large fan base would push back against a WNBA franchise in their area? Concerns for splitting their fan base and revenue? There are only so many disposable dollars in the hands of fans to attend sporting events. Since the seasons don't overlap it might not be that big of an issue, but If I am an AD at Tennessee or South Carolina, I'm going to at least think about it. Of course, the Sun hasn't been a drag on UConn so maybe I'm making an issue where there isn't one.

I doubt it. It's probably more likely that the college fans would support both teams or not support the pro team at all as opposed to dropping the college team in favor of the pros.

 

[amb3096]

The weak benches are related to the pay structure. Teams have to pay their best players and then fill out the roster with the best players that fit under the salary cap, not the best remaining players.

I think the weak benches are also because a lot of players are still overseas or injured. It seemed like there were an awful lot of hardship signings this year, which explains the somewhat random "Do you know who I am?" players on some of the benches.

 

[ballerfan]

Any information on Week 1 WNBA attendance / ratings numbers? Any positive trend?

Maybe instead of jumping into high risk expansion, move poor drawing clubs to potentially better locations first and add 1-2 roster spots.

Because of Covid and mask wearing, attendance in 2020 and 2021 is not helpful to look at. Here are the WNBA attendance stats for 2019. (The average attendance for the NBA in 2018-19 was 17,844.)

2019 WNBA REGULAR SEASON ATTENDANCE
HOME TEAM	DATES ('19)	TOTAL	AVG.	% CAP.	PREVIOUS	CHANGE	DATES ('18)
L.A. Sparks	17	192,224	11,307	83.76%	10,642	6.3%	17
Phoenix Mercury	17	173,273	10,193	105.85%	9,950	2.4%	17
Minnesota Lynx	17	154,170	9,069	103.42%	10,036	-9.6%	17
Seattle Storm ***	17	128,548	7,562	79.11%	8,109	-6.7%	17
Connecticut Sun	17	116,300	6,841	73.38%	6,569	4.2%	17
Chicago Sky	17	116,188	6,835	74.78%	6,358	7.5%	17
Indiana Fever	17	100,078	5,887	74.88%	6,311	-6.7%	17
Dallas Wings	17	84,988	4,999	73.52%	4,752	5.2%	17
Las Vegas Aces *	17	79,373	4,669	63.10%	5,307	-12.0%	17
Washington Mystics ****	17	77,288	4,546	103.6%	6,136	-25.9%	16
Atlanta Dream	17	72,596	4,270	60.2%	4,194	1.8%	17
N.Y. Liberty **	17	38,067	2,239	89.79%	2,823	-20.7%	17
LEAGUE TOTALS	204	1,333,093	6,535	81.7%	6,769	-3.5%	203
* = Includes one game played at T-Mobile Arena. ** = Includes one game played at Barclays Center. * = Includes five games played at Angel of the Winds Arena and the rest at Alaska Airlines Arena. ** = Includes one game played at Capital One Arena The team also only played 16 games last year.

 

[ballerfan]

Here's an example of how important a venue can be. In 2017 the NY Liberty was playing at Madison Square Garden. In 2018 it switched to Westchester County Center, and average attendance dropped from 9,888 to 2,823.

Year	Average	High	Low
1997	13,270 (2nd)	18,051	8,554
1998	14,935 (2nd)	19,563	11,276
1999	13,797 (2nd)	16,782	10,940
2000	14,498 (2nd)	19,563	11,257
2001	15,671 (1st)	18,213	12,262
2002	14,670 (2nd)	19,563	12,037
2003	12,491 (2nd)	15,424	10,711
2004	9,629 (3rd)	15,698	5,945
2005	10,145 (1st)	12,543	7,897
2006	9,120 (2nd)	14,070	7,751
2007	8,677 (2nd)	11,341	6,267
2008	9,045 (4th)	19,393	6,928
2009	9,800 (3rd)	15,667	8,018
2010	11,069 (1st)	18,162	7,537
2011	7,702 (8th)	14,314	5,725
2012	6,779 (9th)	14,715	4,723
2013	7,189 (7th)	12,858	5,766
2014	8,949 (3rd)	17,252	7,023
2015	9,159 (3rd)	18,617	5,663
2016	9,724 (2nd)	14,503	7,356
2017	9,888 (4th)	17,443	7,004
2018	2,823 (12th)	12,488	1,419
2019	2,239 (12th)	7,715	1,181

 

[Plebe]

Houston is not a loyal sports city. It’s too big and there’s to many other things for people to do if the team does not win consistently as you saw with the comets after the 4 peat. Big population yes faithful no.

So Houston has enough fan loyalty to support the continued existence of MLS and NWSL teams, neither of which has been particularly successful, but not a WNBA team?

The Comets' folding had little to do with lack of fan support as compared to cities where teams didn't fold.

 

[WFFL]

So Houston has enough fan loyalty to support the continued existence of MLS and NWSL teams, neither of which has been particularly successful, but not a WNBA team?

The Comets' folding had little to do with lack of fan support as compared to cities where teams didn't fold.

The mattress man could not foot the bill during the comets struggling years where attendance dropped drastically. I was apart of those days so i know what happened with the comets. Tried to sell the team but all deals fell through and mattress man had to fold.

 

[cancontent]

Philly
Portland
Oakland
Toronto
Are the 4 interested cities from what i know ...so it would have to be 2 out of those 4 most likely .

I think if Toronto puts in a bid it will have really stable ownership and great management, which the league would want.

I wonder if the consortium that owns the Raptors, MLSE, has first right of refusal. It would make sense as they already have the infrastructure in place to support a team. The consortium also includes other teams, including the Leafs, Argos (Canadian Football) and Toronto FC. I think they could handle absorbing the costs to manage such an operation while it gets its footing.

For facilities, their G-League team plays in Mississauga. It would be available during the WNBA season, if they didn't want to use Scotiabank arena. Marketing would have support from the larger organizations and could be leveraged to their benefit.

 

[Argonaut]

I think some of the problem is the WNBA doesn't capitalize on people wanting to watch players coming out of college programs. When we're coming off of the national championship and WBB is at its peak momentum for the year, the W shoots themselves in the foot by not making those early games accessible. The fact that you couldn't watch any of the pre-season games is ridiculous, and then most of the young players on those training camp rosters get cut and the fans following them are turned off from watching more W games.

And all of that is completely separate from the lack of continuity around where you can watch the games.

 

[Longtime fan]

This is a great idea of course, provided the teams can be profitable.

WNBA commissioner discusses adding expansion teams

I have no idea where they "should" go. It seems logical to consider cities with strong WCBB following - Columbia, SC, Knoxville, Lexington KY, somewhere in Iowa (ISU and Iowa both have strong fan support). But maybe those aren't logical places? Where do the BY experts think new teams should go?

It's a great idea and hope it comes to pass. I have to imagine players like Evina, Crystal, Moriah, and others who are barely hanging on, could find good homes...

“We don’t want to jeopardize the momentum we have, but we understand the issue about roster sizes,” Engelbert said. “But when you’re a country the size and scale of ours and you’re only in 12 cities, growing the league is a way to do that as well. Then you open up roster spots. I don’t think it’s about rosters per team. It’s about more opportunities to play for more players to play.”

Engelbert’s comments come just days after star Storm forward Breanna Stewart blasted the league for its restrictive salary cap, which has led to fewer available roster spots for incoming draft picks, including those selected in the first round. The 2018 league MVP argued that the WNBA needs to consider creating a developmental league or allowing teams to sign “practice players,” or else the league will suffer from a lack of young talent.

Good for Stewie, but bottom line, not too long ago, the league was not only barely hanging on, but in danger of going under (at least that is my impression). There's a reason the WNBA pays so little, even compared to overseas gigs for women. It seems the league is on the right trajectory, and hopefully interest continues to rise and the league continues to become more profitable.

As a distant observer, I wonder at the logic of this. From what I understand, most teams do not have enough money to sign their drafted rookies. Much less, pay a truly fair wage. So how do they justify expanding a shaky financial enterprise ? More debt? And I am a supporter. I want the WNBA to become an outlet I yearn to watch.

 

[amb3096]

I think some of the problem is the WNBA doesn't capitalize on people wanting to watch players coming out of college programs. When we're coming off of the national championship and WBB is at its peak momentum for the year, the W shoots themselves in the foot by not making those early games accessible. The fact that you couldn't watch any of the pre-season games is ridiculous, and then most of the young players on those training camp rosters get cut and the fans following them are turned off from watching more W games.

And all of that is completely separate from the lack of continuity around where you can watch the games.

I think you're overestimating the loyalty of college fanbases to their players once they turn pro. There might be pockets of hardcore fans that follow their players, but it seems most are loyal to the school, not the players or the sport.

As far as televising games go, the training camp preseason games are pointless. It's mostly 2nd/3rd tiers fighting for a roster spot against each other while the stars are playing overseas.

 

[amb3096]

Here's an example of how important a venue can be. In 2017 the NY Liberty was playing at Madison Square Garden. In 2018 it switched to Westchester County Center, and average attendance dropped from 9,888 to 2,823.

Year	Average	High	Low
1997	13,270 (2nd)	18,051	8,554
1998	14,935 (2nd)	19,563	11,276
1999	13,797 (2nd)	16,782	10,940
2000	14,498 (2nd)	19,563	11,257
2001	15,671 (1st)	18,213	12,262
2002	14,670 (2nd)	19,563	12,037
2003	12,491 (2nd)	15,424	10,711
2004	9,629 (3rd)	15,698	5,945
2005	10,145 (1st)	12,543	7,897
2006	9,120 (2nd)	14,070	7,751
2007	8,677 (2nd)	11,341	6,267
2008	9,045 (4th)	19,393	6,928
2009	9,800 (3rd)	15,667	8,018
2010	11,069 (1st)	18,162	7,537
2011	7,702 (8th)	14,314	5,725
2012	6,779 (9th)	14,715	4,723
2013	7,189 (7th)	12,858	5,766
2014	8,949 (3rd)	17,252	7,023
2015	9,159 (3rd)	18,617	5,663
2016	9,724 (2nd)	14,503	7,356
2017	9,888 (4th)	17,443	7,004
2018	2,823 (12th)	12,488	1,419
2019	2,239 (12th)	7,715	1,181

The most interesting thing about this is how the it shows just how badly the league has grown. It looks like the first 5-6 years, the top drawing team was averaging in the 15-16k for crowd size. By 2005, that's down to 10k and it doesn't look like it's really ever gotten back to it's initial peaks.

 

[Cuango]

As a distant observer, I wonder at the logic of this. From what I understand, most teams do not have enough money to sign their drafted rookies. Much less, pay a truly fair wage. So how do they justify expanding a shaky financial enterprise ? More debt? And I am a supporter. I want the WNBA to become an outlet I yearn to watch.

I would be interested in knowing your criteria for a “truly fair wage”? Aren’t fair wages predicated on what the market will stand? Surely the opportunity for higher wages in the WNBA are dependent on the profitability of the league itself? Sure, if you could find 12-16 billionaires who didn’t care if they made a profit then I suppose wages could rise to a level that would lessen the incessant whining about salaries (though it would likely Imo never be enough for some) but in that event, it would no longer be a business but merely an expensive hobby for those billionaires. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against bigger paychecks for people who make their employers lots of money! That’s only fair. However, that’s not happening here. Rather, the league is a giant money pit and the players don’t seem to be able to accept that reality.

 

[UHF]

I would be interested in knowing your criteria for a “truly fair wage”? Aren’t fair wages predicated on what the market will stand? Surely the opportunity for higher wages in the WNBA are dependent on the profitability of the league itself? Sure, if you could find 12-16 billionaires who didn’t care if they made a profit then I suppose wages could rise to a level that would lessen the incessant whining about salaries (though it would likely Imo never be enough for some) but in that event, it would no longer be a business but merely an expensive hobby for those billionaires. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against bigger paychecks for people who make their employers lots of money! That’s only fair. However, that’s not happening here. Rather, the league is a giant money pit and the players don’t seem to be able to accept that reality.

Entitlement syndrome.

 

[Argonaut]

I think you're overestimating the loyalty of college fanbases to their players once they turn pro. There might be pockets of hardcore fans that follow their players, but it seems most are loyal to the school, not the players or the sport.

As far as televising games go, the training camp preseason games are pointless. It's mostly 2nd/3rd tiers fighting for a roster spot against each other while the stars are playing overseas.

But you have to grab those loyal collegiate fans when and where you can. There are fewer NBA fans than you’re going to convert, so you have to make the move to grabbing the college crowd. I don’t think I’ve spoken to (not saying they don’t exist…) a single W fan who wasn’t a WCBB fan first. Market directly to those WCBB fans. You won’t get them all, but you’ll start getting some.

And with the preseason games, they’re already recording the games for the teams, so how hard would it be to make them available for free on the app? I wasn’t thinking they need to be on ESPN… lol.

 

[Plebe]

The mattress man could not foot the bill during the comets struggling years where attendance dropped drastically. I was apart of those days so i know what happened with the comets. Tried to sell the team but all deals fell through and mattress man had to fold.

Again, to say the folding was solely about attendance is an oversimplification at best.

In 2007, their penultimate season, the Comets were still 5th out of 13 teams in attendance, ahead of several other teams still in existence today. Then the new owner moved them from the Toyota Center to a much smaller arena, the Reliant Center. So of course attendance in 2008 was smaller. The fact that this situation came to a head in the depths of the 2008 recession didn't help matters.

 

[Mdoggie]

Colorado. Team name? Denver Gold.

 

[Gluap]

Attendance is a very volatile indicator right now. Covid surges are surely impacting attendance in some areas more than others. That says nothing about the variance in reaction / behaviors within a surge in different locales. For example Ct. has surging positivity rates . Put by some as high as 15-16 % although hard to tell given home testing and lack of testing in younger age groups. Couple that with an over representation in fan base of older fans who are at higher risk and that adds up to minimally a hard to gauge metric regarding attendance.

 

[HopJim]

Here's an example of how important a venue can be. In 2017 the NY Liberty was playing at Madison Square Garden. In 2018 it switched to Westchester County Center, and average attendance dropped from 9,888 to 2,823.

Year	Average	High	Low
1997	13,270 (2nd)	18,051	8,554
1998	14,935 (2nd)	19,563	11,276
1999	13,797 (2nd)	16,782	10,940
2000	14,498 (2nd)	19,563	11,257
2001	15,671 (1st)	18,213	12,262
2002	14,670 (2nd)	19,563	12,037
2003	12,491 (2nd)	15,424	10,711
2004	9,629 (3rd)	15,698	5,945
2005	10,145 (1st)	12,543	7,897
2006	9,120 (2nd)	14,070	7,751
2007	8,677 (2nd)	11,341	6,267
2008	9,045 (4th)	19,393	6,928
2009	9,800 (3rd)	15,667	8,018
2010	11,069 (1st)	18,162	7,537
2011	7,702 (8th)	14,314	5,725
2012	6,779 (9th)	14,715	4,723
2013	7,189 (7th)	12,858	5,766
2014	8,949 (3rd)	17,252	7,023
2015	9,159 (3rd)	18,617	5,663
2016	9,724 (2nd)	14,503	7,356
2017	9,888 (4th)	17,443	7,004
2018	2,823 (12th)	12,488	1,419
2019	2,239 (12th)	7,715	1,181

Very interesting stats. Would also be useful to compare the costs of Madison Square Garden to other venues around the US. Difficult to run any sports or entertainment related business when your fixed costs are high.

 

[amb3096]

Very interesting stats. Would also be useful to compare the costs of Madison Square Garden to other venues around the US. Difficult to run any sports or entertainment related business when your fixed costs are high.

Yeah, on paper that Liberty attendance looks good, but not when MSG can accommodate like 20k fans and they are usually hovering around half of that. They were probably losing more money than teams that had significantly lower attendance but smaller venues. There's probably a reason that the Tsais haven't moved them back.

 

[Pinhead]

I think some of the problem is the WNBA doesn't capitalize on people wanting to watch players coming out of college programs. When we're coming off of the national championship and WBB is at its peak momentum for the year, the W shoots themselves in the foot by not making those early games accessible. The fact that you couldn't watch any of the pre-season games is ridiculous, and then most of the young players on those training camp rosters get cut and the fans following them are turned off from watching more W games.

And all of that is completely separate from the lack of continuity around where you can watch the games.

Stewie made this very point. WNBA squanders momentum and synergy coming off the just completed college season.

 

[Dillon77]

Very interesting stats. Would also be useful to compare the costs of Madison Square Garden to other venues around the US. Difficult to run any sports or entertainment related business when your fixed costs are high.

Yeah, on paper that Liberty attendance looks good, but not when MSG can accommodate like 20k fans and they are usually hovering around half of that. They were probably losing more money than teams that had significantly lower attendance but smaller venues. There's probably a reason that the Tsais haven't moved them back.

Joseph Tsai bought and moved the Liberty to play in Barclay's in Brooklyn. Same place that the other team he dabbles in -- The Nets -- play at. Points hold in terms of expenses, but this is a Brooklyn team now.