I think the weak benches are also because a lot of players are still overseas or injured. It seemed like there were an awful lot of hardship signings this year, which explains the somewhat random "Do you know who I am?" players on some of the benches.
WNBA considering expanding by 2 teams
- Thread starter EricSD
- Start date
Because of Covid and mask wearing, attendance in 2020 and 2021 is not helpful to look at. Here are the WNBA attendance stats for 2019. (The average attendance for the NBA in 2018-19 was 17,844.)
| 2019 WNBA REGULAR SEASON ATTENDANCE | |||||||
| HOME TEAM | DATES ('19) | TOTAL | AVG. | % CAP. | PREVIOUS | CHANGE | DATES ('18) |
| L.A. Sparks | 17 | 192,224 | 11,307 | 83.76% | 10,642 | 6.3% | 17 |
| Phoenix Mercury | 17 | 173,273 | 10,193 | 105.85% | 9,950 | 2.4% | 17 |
| Minnesota Lynx | 17 | 154,170 | 9,069 | 103.42% | 10,036 | -9.6% | 17 |
| Seattle Storm *** | 17 | 128,548 | 7,562 | 79.11% | 8,109 | -6.7% | 17 |
| Connecticut Sun | 17 | 116,300 | 6,841 | 73.38% | 6,569 | 4.2% | 17 |
| Chicago Sky | 17 | 116,188 | 6,835 | 74.78% | 6,358 | 7.5% | 17 |
| Indiana Fever | 17 | 100,078 | 5,887 | 74.88% | 6,311 | -6.7% | 17 |
| Dallas Wings | 17 | 84,988 | 4,999 | 73.52% | 4,752 | 5.2% | 17 |
| Las Vegas Aces * | 17 | 79,373 | 4,669 | 63.10% | 5,307 | -12.0% | 17 |
| Washington Mystics **** | 17 | 77,288 | 4,546 | 103.6% | 6,136 | -25.9% | 16 |
| Atlanta Dream | 17 | 72,596 | 4,270 | 60.2% | 4,194 | 1.8% | 17 |
| N.Y. Liberty ** | 17 | 38,067 | 2,239 | 89.79% | 2,823 | -20.7% | 17 |
| LEAGUE TOTALS | 204 | 1,333,093 | 6,535 | 81.7% | 6,769 | -3.5% | 203 |
| * = Includes one game played at T-Mobile Arena. ** = Includes one game played at Barclays Center. * = Includes five games played at Angel of the Winds Arena and the rest at Alaska Airlines Arena. ** = Includes one game played at Capital One Arena The team also only played 16 games last year. |
Here's an example of how important a venue can be. In 2017 the NY Liberty was playing at Madison Square Garden. In 2018 it switched to Westchester County Center, and average attendance dropped from 9,888 to 2,823.
| Year | Average | High | Low |
| 1997 | 13,270 (2nd) | 18,051 | 8,554 |
| 1998 | 14,935 (2nd) | 19,563 | 11,276 |
| 1999 | 13,797 (2nd) | 16,782 | 10,940 |
| 2000 | 14,498 (2nd) | 19,563 | 11,257 |
| 2001 | 15,671 (1st) | 18,213 | 12,262 |
| 2002 | 14,670 (2nd) | 19,563 | 12,037 |
| 2003 | 12,491 (2nd) | 15,424 | 10,711 |
| 2004 | 9,629 (3rd) | 15,698 | 5,945 |
| 2005 | 10,145 (1st) | 12,543 | 7,897 |
| 2006 | 9,120 (2nd) | 14,070 | 7,751 |
| 2007 | 8,677 (2nd) | 11,341 | 6,267 |
| 2008 | 9,045 (4th) | 19,393 | 6,928 |
| 2009 | 9,800 (3rd) | 15,667 | 8,018 |
| 2010 | 11,069 (1st) | 18,162 | 7,537 |
| 2011 | 7,702 (8th) | 14,314 | 5,725 |
| 2012 | 6,779 (9th) | 14,715 | 4,723 |
| 2013 | 7,189 (7th) | 12,858 | 5,766 |
| 2014 | 8,949 (3rd) | 17,252 | 7,023 |
| 2015 | 9,159 (3rd) | 18,617 | 5,663 |
| 2016 | 9,724 (2nd) | 14,503 | 7,356 |
| 2017 | 9,888 (4th) | 17,443 | 7,004 |
| 2018 | 2,823 (12th) | 12,488 | 1,419 |
| 2019 | 2,239 (12th) | 7,715 | 1,181 |
Plebe
La verdad no peca pero incomoda
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So Houston has enough fan loyalty to support the continued existence of MLS and NWSL teams, neither of which has been particularly successful, but not a WNBA team?
The Comets' folding had little to do with lack of fan support as compared to cities where teams didn't fold.
The mattress man could not foot the bill during the comets struggling years where attendance dropped drastically. I was apart of those days so i know what happened with the comets. Tried to sell the team but all deals fell through and mattress man had to fold.
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I wonder if the consortium that owns the Raptors, MLSE, has first right of refusal. It would make sense as they already have the infrastructure in place to support a team. The consortium also includes other teams, including the Leafs, Argos (Canadian Football) and Toronto FC. I think they could handle absorbing the costs to manage such an operation while it gets its footing.
For facilities, their G-League team plays in Mississauga. It would be available during the WNBA season, if they didn't want to use Scotiabank arena. Marketing would have support from the larger organizations and could be leveraged to their benefit.
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Argonaut
No, not that Providence.
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I think some of the problem is the WNBA doesn't capitalize on people wanting to watch players coming out of college programs. When we're coming off of the national championship and WBB is at its peak momentum for the year, the W shoots themselves in the foot by not making those early games accessible. The fact that you couldn't watch any of the pre-season games is ridiculous, and then most of the young players on those training camp rosters get cut and the fans following them are turned off from watching more W games.
And all of that is completely separate from the lack of continuity around where you can watch the games.
And all of that is completely separate from the lack of continuity around where you can watch the games.
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As a distant observer, I wonder at the logic of this. From what I understand, most teams do not have enough money to sign their drafted rookies. Much less, pay a truly fair wage. So how do they justify expanding a shaky financial enterprise ? More debt? And I am a supporter. I want the WNBA to become an outlet I yearn to watch.
I think you're overestimating the loyalty of college fanbases to their players once they turn pro. There might be pockets of hardcore fans that follow their players, but it seems most are loyal to the school, not the players or the sport.
As far as televising games go, the training camp preseason games are pointless. It's mostly 2nd/3rd tiers fighting for a roster spot against each other while the stars are playing overseas.
The most interesting thing about this is how the it shows just how badly the league has grown. It looks like the first 5-6 years, the top drawing team was averaging in the 15-16k for crowd size. By 2005, that's down to 10k and it doesn't look like it's really ever gotten back to it's initial peaks.
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I would be interested in knowing your criteria for a “truly fair wage”? Aren’t fair wages predicated on what the market will stand? Surely the opportunity for higher wages in the WNBA are dependent on the profitability of the league itself? Sure, if you could find 12-16 billionaires who didn’t care if they made a profit then I suppose wages could rise to a level that would lessen the incessant whining about salaries (though it would likely Imo never be enough for some) but in that event, it would no longer be a business but merely an expensive hobby for those billionaires. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against bigger paychecks for people who make their employers lots of money! That’s only fair. However, that’s not happening here. Rather, the league is a giant money pit and the players don’t seem to be able to accept that reality.
Entitlement syndrome.
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Argonaut
No, not that Providence.
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But you have to grab those loyal collegiate fans when and where you can. There are fewer NBA fans than you’re going to convert, so you have to make the move to grabbing the college crowd. I don’t think I’ve spoken to (not saying they don’t exist…) a single W fan who wasn’t a WCBB fan first. Market directly to those WCBB fans. You won’t get them all, but you’ll start getting some.
And with the preseason games, they’re already recording the games for the teams, so how hard would it be to make them available for free on the app? I wasn’t thinking they need to be on ESPN… lol.
Plebe
La verdad no peca pero incomoda
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Again, to say the folding was solely about attendance is an oversimplification at best.
In 2007, their penultimate season, the Comets were still 5th out of 13 teams in attendance, ahead of several other teams still in existence today. Then the new owner moved them from the Toyota Center to a much smaller arena, the Reliant Center. So of course attendance in 2008 was smaller. The fact that this situation came to a head in the depths of the 2008 recession didn't help matters.
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Attendance is a very volatile indicator right now. Covid surges are surely impacting attendance in some areas more than others. That says nothing about the variance in reaction / behaviors within a surge in different locales. For example Ct. has surging positivity rates . Put by some as high as 15-16 % although hard to tell given home testing and lack of testing in younger age groups. Couple that with an over representation in fan base of older fans who are at higher risk and that adds up to minimally a hard to gauge metric regarding attendance.
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Very interesting stats. Would also be useful to compare the costs of Madison Square Garden to other venues around the US. Difficult to run any sports or entertainment related business when your fixed costs are high.
Yeah, on paper that Liberty attendance looks good, but not when MSG can accommodate like 20k fans and they are usually hovering around half of that. They were probably losing more money than teams that had significantly lower attendance but smaller venues. There's probably a reason that the Tsais haven't moved them back.
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Stewie made this very point. WNBA squanders momentum and synergy coming off the just completed college season.
Dillon77
WBB Enthusiast; ND Alum, Fan
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Joseph Tsai bought and moved the Liberty to play in Barclay's in Brooklyn. Same place that the other team he dabbles in -- The Nets -- play at. Points hold in terms of expenses, but this is a Brooklyn team now.
I didn't realize that the figure of under 2k average fans was at Barclay's. Yikes...
But it does show what happens when you have an owner in which money is no object and he can afford to lose money every game because he's so rich that he owns the stadium vs. those teams with owners where money matters to them.
Agreed totally
CamrnCrz1974
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A few things ...
First, attendance figures for the first 10 or so years of the league were not "real". As an example, Washington used to count tickets given away as part of its attendance numbers.
The numbers in the last two CBA periods are definitely much closer to reality, in terms of measuring paid ticket sales and turnstile in the building.
Some of you might try searching for this via Google and not find credible confirmation. The data mentioned above was shared with me by a former WNBA General Manager who spent ten years with that franchise (those of you know me will figure out said former GM's identity).
Second, to address @EricLA 's point about WNBA salaries as compared to overseas, the money earned in places like Russia is not sustainable. Teams are owned by billionaires and oligarchs who enjoy women's basketball; the second their interest wanes or they no longer desire to do so, the money will be gone.
The WNBA, by contrast, is building for the long game, developing sustained interest and attendance.
As far as profitability, the WNBA has really held its own, as multiple teams have earned a profit in recent years.
In terms of livelihood of the league, consider:
You do not see businesspeople making those types of purchases and capital investments without demonstrative evidence of existing or potential multi-faceted financial growth strategy and revenue potential.
First, attendance figures for the first 10 or so years of the league were not "real". As an example, Washington used to count tickets given away as part of its attendance numbers.
The numbers in the last two CBA periods are definitely much closer to reality, in terms of measuring paid ticket sales and turnstile in the building.
Some of you might try searching for this via Google and not find credible confirmation. The data mentioned above was shared with me by a former WNBA General Manager who spent ten years with that franchise (those of you know me will figure out said former GM's identity).
Second, to address @EricLA 's point about WNBA salaries as compared to overseas, the money earned in places like Russia is not sustainable. Teams are owned by billionaires and oligarchs who enjoy women's basketball; the second their interest wanes or they no longer desire to do so, the money will be gone.
The WNBA, by contrast, is building for the long game, developing sustained interest and attendance.
As far as profitability, the WNBA has really held its own, as multiple teams have earned a profit in recent years.
In terms of livelihood of the league, consider:
- Billionaire (and Brooklyn Nets owner) Joseph Tsai bought the NY Liberty.
- Half-a-Billionaire (and Las Vegas Raiders owner) Mark Davis bought the LV Aces.
- Three months ago, the WNBA announced the largest-ever capital raise for a women’s sports - $75 million, with one of the investors being billionaire (and Miami Heat owner) Micky Arison.
You do not see businesspeople making those types of purchases and capital investments without demonstrative evidence of existing or potential multi-faceted financial growth strategy and revenue potential.
So I fully realize this isn't going to happen, but I think a WNBA team in either Des Moines or Iowa City that was able to draft Caitlin Clark could be successful. Iowa and Iowa State have good WBB attendance in general, and Clark has helped take that to a new level at Iowa. The team could also be marketed as the state's only professional team in a major league.
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I don't have much of an answer. I know that some of the players make a really good salary ( mid six figures ) playing for women's teams in Europe and other places. What the current situation here suggests is that the WNBA is simply not viable. The fan base is certainly there for the college game (WBB) but it seems tepid at best for the pro game. I don't think the WNBA has done a good job marketing itself. Or maybe the issue goes deeper. Why is the mens NBA so successful? And the women's isn't? That is the question. Is it because " super men players" are just so much more interesting to watch? ( I am not a fan, actually. Once dunking and 100% shooting of threes from mid court became routine ). But the women have trouble attracting interest and loyalty. Not super enough? I don't know.
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Boston is ranked #2 in the country for basketball fans only behind LA.
What cities is basketball most popular?
Los Angeles is at the top of the list as the best city for basketball fans with Boston, Salt Lake City, San Francisco, and Philadelphia rounding out the Top 5. Researchers for the WalletHub study compared nearly 300 cities to find the best cities for fans of the game whether it's professional or college.
May 12,. 2022
www.pennlive.com
wgntv.com
What cities is basketball most popular?
Los Angeles is at the top of the list as the best city for basketball fans with Boston, Salt Lake City, San Francisco, and Philadelphia rounding out the Top 5. Researchers for the WalletHub study compared nearly 300 cities to find the best cities for fans of the game whether it's professional or college.
May 12,. 2022
Pa. cities amongst the best and worst for basketball fans: study
One city in Pennsylvania is considered one of the absolute best—and another, the absolute worst—for basketball fans.
Where Chicago ranks on best cities for b-ball fans
CHICAGO – Many area basketball fans would be quick to say Chicago’s “got game” when it comes to the sport. But one study says otherwise. On WalletHub’s list of 2022…
wgntv.com
RogueDave
Wasn’t Me!
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Agree with you on it would be nice but not going to happen. Fully support your intention on this for sure.
Uncertainty is on the transition of fan support to WNBA team and it all has to do with League playing in the Summer.
The Iowa WBB programs have a lot of synergy going for great Winter WBB attendance. Winters are long and harsh with not a lot to do. The programs are very well run with excellent facilities. Strong history of winning. Very Strong fan interest.
Unfortunately I believe a Iowa WNBA summer league team would have many of the same challenges as the other cities for attendance.
Summer’s are short with lots of other entertainment and recreational opportunities than going and sitting indoors watching anything. In summer getting out there doing recreational activities outweighs watching for most Iowaians.
But still Iowa as a state is a huge supporter of Woman’s athletics.
Bald Husky
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I follow the Connecticut Sun as my summer basketball fix. In the fall and winter you have NBA, NHL, NFL, college football, college basketball. In the summer , you have MLB, that's it except for the WNBA. The WNBA is a good league, with great players and competitive teams. Just having MLB to watch is boring, especially when the home team sucks.
RockyMTblue2
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Which 2 teams, Indiana and the Liberty?
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Has their financial situation changed? Last I heard, they were losing millions every year. An infusion of cash ( which is what I heard happened) isn’t going to suddenly make them profitable. Salaries are trending upward as is media coverage. While still a pittance compared to NBA salaries, $228,000 is far more than most Americans can dream of making. Perhaps, they should show a little gratitude and focus on improved play, less politics and making silly, delusional, and self-aggrandizing comments about NBA players and instead work on improving attendance across the board! That, is the only plausible road to 7 figure salaries. I wish them well (clearly the sports world is better off with a thriving professional women’s league), but ultimately, profitability is the only way for them to achieve their dreams of generational wealth, and NBA level paychecks. One can only imagine how George Nika’s, Bob Cousy, and even Bird and Magic must feel when they see players that couldn’t (in some cases) carry their jockstrap, making $25,000,000 per season but someone had to build the league up into the financial behemoth it is today. Stewart, Wilson, Jones, Loyd etc are the stepping stones that may lead to that kind of wealth for future players. Frustrating, but that is their current reality I’m afraid!
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