Why no talk of death penalty for Penn State?

[MilliniumPrince]

As a grown man no one have to tell me to go to the police.

 

[Carl Spackler]

No, I can't understand your reasoning. McQueary told Paterno what he had told the doctor. You're saying that it's understandable the doctor didn't tell him to call police. The doctor did his duty? But Paterno didn't? Makes no sense to me, especially since only one of them is bound by procedures to go to police. The other, a powerful football coach, is bound to follow university procedures and report to his superiors--even if less powerful than he is.

After the fact (i.e. when his superiors did nothing), I do believe Paterno should have gone to the police. (Although much remains to be seen about what went on in the emails between President, VP of police, and the lawyers). And for that he deserved to be fired. And, after the fact, the doctor should have gone to police as well, but he didn't. Just as Paterno followed up with superiors, I'm sure the doctor followed up with McQueary. Furthermore, Paterno never said he wished he had done more. He said, "In hindsight, I wish I had done more." There's a difference. This is the equivalent of Condoleeza Rice's "Knowing what we know now." No ' duh! Who wouldn't?

If you're attitude and tone, in this entire discussion here, and other discussion..., toward this whole situation in any way reflects the general attitude, consensus of the Penn State culture in what happened, and is currently happening, then I absolutely, 100% stand behind the concept that the Penn State football program deserves a death penalty ban on competition. It would be the only way to really establish that the culture of penn state is NOT above the life of a single child.

You can say that you believe so and so deserves what they get, and punishment that, and new people here now, and those people are gone that.....and Paterno's dead.......but everything between the lines in communication says otherwise as to how you feel. In hindsight? F8ck that. My opinion, is that Joe Paterno, the idol, had a fatal flaw in that he chose to handle Sandusky - for many, many years with his own power, and it wasn't enough to stop Sandusky, and he never corrected that flaw. Your attitude here, reflects that general idol worship, that is unwilling to accept how ugly and fatal that flaw was.

It will never happen, the death penalty, but that's how I feel.

Hopefully this trial ends soon, and as Rick Reilly put it - Sandusky ends up in the general population in the clink, for the rest of his days on this earth.

 

[upstater]

If you're attitude and tone, in this entire discussion here, and other discussion..., toward this whole situation in any way reflects the general attitude, consensus of the Penn State culture in what happened, and is currently happening, then I absolutely, 100% stand behind the concept that the Penn State football program deserves a death penalty ban on competition. It would be the only way to really establish that the culture of penn state is NOT above the life of a single child.

You can say that you believe so and so deserves what they get, and punishment that, and new people here now, and those people are gone that.....and Paterno's dead.......but everything between the lines in communication says otherwise as to how you feel. In hindsight? F8ck that. My opinion, is that Joe Paterno, the idol, had a fatal flaw in that he chose to handle Sandusky - for many, many years with his own power, and it wasn't enough to stop Sandusky, and he never corrected that flaw. Your attitude here, reflects that general idol worship, that is unwilling to accept how ugly and fatal that flaw was.

It will never happen, the death penalty, but that's how I feel.

Hopefully this trial ends soon, and as Rick Reilly put it - Sandusky ends up in the general population in the clink, for the rest of his days on this earth.

You're really losing your mind. How can you even discuss anything whatsoever if you're going to distort everything?

 

[upstater]

As a grown man no one have to tell me to go to the police.

You do realize I'm criticizing McQueary, right?

 

[NHUConnfan]

Well, actually reading the rule has changed my opinion. I would have thought that the program would not be responsible for what Sandusky did, but would be responsible for covering it up to protect the football program (which very well might have been what happened). Unfortunately, the NCAA defines "institutional control" as control over compliance with NCAA rules, and not in a more general sense.

Now let me ask you, since you're a lawyer. How difficult would it be to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this was done to protect the football program? For me, all lawyers need to do is say it was to protect the university (more broadly) and the doubt is already cast.

 

[Carl Spackler]

You're really losing your mind. How can you even discuss anything whatsoever if you're going to distort everything?

Thinking about what happened in the locker rooms and sauna of the penn state football facilities,that a guy like Sandusky could regularly bring kids into the showers in full view of other coaches, that people KNEW about his behavior for so long, and what happened on football team road trips in team hotels, will do that to a person. Losing your mind that is. I'm not distorting anything. I've been very clear as to what my opinion is, the conclusions I've drawn based on the evidence are my opinion. ....you do know the difference right? between fact and opinion?

Eric Greitens, who is clearly one of those human beings that God puts on this planet to change the world, wrote an autobiography a few years ago called the Heart and the Fist. I highly recommend reading it. A very western and modern and stunningly simple explanation of life, the eastern principle of yin and yang through western experience.

THere are times wehn compassion, and passivity and communication in maintaining or severing social ties are the ways to fix some kind of social problem. And there are times when the only way you can fix a social problem is to bring down the hammer with brute force and inflict damage. Facts. That you cannot see the ongoing social problem with the culture of penn state university, that I see, is my evidence that the problem exists.

My opinion is that the time has long passed, for going through the heart to fix the problem and the only way to fix the problem is to bring the fist to the athletic department and football program at Penn State.

THe NCAA Is a limp wrist kind of organization though, for this matter. So that fist has to come from somewhere else.

 

[businesslawyer]

Now let me ask you, since you're a lawyer. How difficult would it be to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this was done to protect the football program? For me, all lawyers need to do is say it was to protect the university (more broadly) and the doubt is already cast.

I don't know. That's facts, not law. I would guess that you could do it, but I just don't know.

But if the cover up isn't related to NCAA rules, the way I read the rule linked above it's not a lack of institutional control as the NCAA uses the term.

 

[NHUConnfan]

I don't know. That's facts, not law. I would guess that you could do it, but I just don't know.

But if the cover up isn't related to NCAA rules, the way I read the rule linked above it's not a lack of institutional control as the NCAA uses the term.

Yes, exactly what I was saying to counter Palatine and the rest.

 

[upstater]

Yes, exactly what I was saying to counter Palatine and the rest.

But again, the NCAA reacts like Roger Goodell. It does what it wants.

 

[Adios]

But again, the NCAA reacts like Roger Goodell. It does what it wants.

Given that, there will be no death penalty. The new coaching staff at PSU is creating a new culture. What's past is past, they're still a member of the B1G. And still a powerful one, too. It's amazing what agricultural schools have become in the US.

 

[NHUConnfan]

Given that, there will be no death penalty. The new coaching staff at PSU is creating a new culture. What's past is past, they're still a member of the B1G. And still a powerful one, too. It's amazing what agricultural schools have become in the US.

I would sincerely hope you don't think PSU is just an ag school. They've got several top programs. It's a fantastic public university.

 

[CL82]

The assistant coach has said he never told the head coach that. He even testified to that under oath last week. The head coach said that the assistant told him that something of a sexual nature occurred. The assistant verified that. Then the assistant said he was more explicit with the administrators. The administrators claim he was not. We shall see whom jurors find more trustworthy soon.
.

So you are saying that upon hearing that an adult man and a child were in a shower together and that "something of a sexual nature occurred" between them no had a duty to act? I think at point there is both a legal and a moral duty to act. Frankly, I don't think I'd be able to live with myself if I took no action upon hearing that.

 

[Adios]

I would sincerely hope you don't think PSU is just an ag school. They've got several top programs. It's a fantastic public university.

It started out as an agricultural high school.

 

[upstater]

So you are saying that upon hearing that an adult man and a child were in a shower together and that "something of a sexual nature occurred" between them no had a duty to act? I think at point there is both a legal and a moral duty to act. Frankly, I don't think I'd be able to live with myself if I took no action upon hearing that.

Did I say that? I actually said the exact opposite.

 

[mattp]

upstater said: ↑

The assistant coach has said he never told the head coach that. He even testified to that under oath last week. The head coach said that the assistant told him that something of a sexual nature occurred. The assistant verified that. Then the assistant said he was more explicit with the administrators. The administrators claim he was not. We shall see whom jurors find more trustworthy soon.​

.​

So you are saying that upon hearing that an adult man and a child were in a shower together and that "something of a sexual nature occurred" between them no had a duty to act? I think at point there is both a legal and a moral duty to act. Frankly, I don't think I'd be able to live with myself if I took no action upon hearing that.

how could you possibly have gotten that from what he said? he said the assistants said they were explicit and the administrators said he was not and we'll find out who the jury believes and you take that as him saying nobody had a duty to act? reread what you actually quoted yourself

 

[Jarhead_1775]

So you are saying that upon hearing that an adult man and a child were in a shower together and that "something of a sexual nature occurred" between them no had a duty to act? I think at point there is both a legal and a moral duty to act. Frankly, I don't think I'd be able to live with myself if I took no action upon hearing that.

Speaking as someone who falls into the "mandated reporter" category, NO details are necessary. I could and should be charged under the statute if I failed to report that "something of a sexual nature" took place and I failed to report it. The law is set up so that the proper authorities make the determination if abuse has occurred, not a football coach, not a doctor. Pa's laws must be very lax compared to ct's if this doctor isn't swinging for failing to report.

 

[NHUConnfan]

It started out as an agricultural high school.

Funny, most public universities did.

 

[upstater]

Speaking as someone who falls into the "mandated reporter" category, NO details are necessary. I could and should be charged under the statute if I failed to report that "something of a sexual nature" took place and I failed to report it. The law is set up so that the proper authorities make the determination if abuse has occurred, not a football coach, not a doctor. Pa's laws must be very lax compared to ct's if this doctor isn't swinging for failing to report.

This is why there is controversy. Why didn't the doctor report it? Pa's laws aren't lax. There were two mandatory reporters involved in the chain of info from McQueary. The doctor and the supervisor of the UP police. Both of them should have reported. Neither did. When asked about this, the doctor said he didn't advise or report because of McQueary's testimony. Because of this case, statutes have changed. Right now, procedures require immediate reporting for everyone. You don't need to go to a superior.

 

[Carl Spackler]

In an attempt for upstater - to understand where I'm coming from - I offer this - you do have some kind literature/education background correct? A quote from Eric Greitens. Purple heart &bronze medal honoree, 4 time deployed Navy Seal covert operations commander in the War on Terror, Ph. D., Oxford University Rhodes Scholar, Greenpeace humanitarian worker in eastern europe and africa....oh yeah, and founder of the Mission Continues.

As a man of action, education and accomplishment, do you feel some link with the ancient and esoteric concept of a warrior-poet?


I think it’s incredibly important that we have true citizen-warriors, and I do feel a strong link to the concept of what it means to be a citizen-warrior. When you look at Greek history, and for instance the plays of Aeschylus, who was a warrior at Marathon; when you look at Sophocles, who was both a General and a playwright, I think it becomes clear why they were able to write so powerfully about courage and tragedy. They drew from their own life experiences. Citizen-warriors live full lives, and the writings of the Greek citizen-warriors, or warrior-poets, speak to that.

To be a citizen is both to protect and to create, to defend and to build something worth defending. In the Greek Polis that was understood intimately, because for a city to be defended, it needed its citizens to be capable of being warriors. For a city to be prosperous, it needed citizens that could do more than be warriors. So, I think that the idea of the citizen-warrior, or, as we now say, the citizen-soldier, is really at the heart of any democratic society.




To be a citizen is to both protect and to create. To defend, and to build somethign worth defending.


I don't see anything happening at Penn State, except defending what the ultlimate citizen, Joe Paterno - created.........and what Joe Paterno created, because of how he handled Jerry Sandusky - is not worth defending, and deserves complete destruction and then a rebuild.

But it seems to me, that penn state, would rather have this thing over as soon as possible, have their fall guys, and then continue business as usual with their elitist attitude that was built by Joe Paterno over 6 decades.

Yes - if a citizen at UConn - if what was allowed to happen the way it did at penn state, happened at uconn, i would want complete destruction before a rebuild too. Complete destruction and rebuild for UConn. FIring people is not enough. THe culture needs to be changed, and destruction is the only way to ensure that it changes. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be any force able to do it, aside from the civil lawsuits that are sure to drain Penn State a bit, but I fear that that kind of thing, is not strong enough.

My opinions.

Stay cool.

 

[upstater]

In an attempt for upstater - to understand where I'm coming from - I offer this - you do have some kind literature/education background correct? A quote from Eric Greitens. Purple heart &bronze medal honoree, 4 time deployed Navy Seal covert operations commander in the War on Terror, Ph. D., Oxford University Rhodes Scholar, Greenpeace humanitarian worker in eastern europe and africa....oh yeah, and founder of the Mission Continues.

As a man of action, education and accomplishment, do you feel some link with the ancient and esoteric concept of a warrior-poet?


I think it’s incredibly important that we have true citizen-warriors, and I do feel a strong link to the concept of what it means to be a citizen-warrior. When you look at Greek history, and for instance the plays of Aeschylus, who was a warrior at Marathon; when you look at Sophocles, who was both a General and a playwright, I think it becomes clear why they were able to write so powerfully about courage and tragedy. They drew from their own life experiences. Citizen-warriors live full lives, and the writings of the Greek citizen-warriors, or warrior-poets, speak to that.

To be a citizen is both to protect and to create, to defend and to build something worth defending. In the Greek Polis that was understood intimately, because for a city to be defended, it needed its citizens to be capable of being warriors. For a city to be prosperous, it needed citizens that could do more than be warriors. So, I think that the idea of the citizen-warrior, or, as we now say, the citizen-soldier, is really at the heart of any democratic society.




To be a citizen is to both protect and to create. To defend, and to build somethign worth defending.


I don't see anything happening at Penn State, except defending what the ultlimate citizen, Joe Paterno - created.........and what Joe Paterno created, because of how he handled Jerry Sandusky - is not worth defending, and deserves complete destruction and then a rebuild.

But it seems to me, that penn state, would rather have this thing over as soon as possible, have their fall guys, and then continue business as usual with their elitist attitude that was built by Joe Paterno over 6 decades.

Yes - if a citizen at UConn - if what was allowed to happen the way it did at penn state, happened at uconn, i would want complete destruction before a rebuild too. Complete destruction and rebuild for UConn. FIring people is not enough. THe culture needs to be changed, and destruction is the only way to ensure that it changes. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be any force able to do it, aside from the civil lawsuits that are sure to drain Penn State a bit, but I fear that that kind of thing, is not strong enough.

My opinions.

Stay cool.

What PSU should do is run a clean program that reports child molesters immediately. That's what I expect they are doing. Your logic would have them totally destroy the football program first. Well, would you apply that same logic to Eastern Michigan University, where the President was found guilty of covering up the murder of two co-eds committed by another student. Should EMU be destroyed first, and then rebuilt?

PSU is going to pay in two ways. One, they will pay damages in civil suits. Two, 10% of AD money is going to children services charities. What would destroying football accomplish?

 

[Carl Spackler]

What PSU should do is run a clean program that reports child molesters immediately. That's what I expect they are doing. Your logic would have them totally destroy the football program first. Well, would you apply that same logic to Eastern Michigan University, where the President was found guilty of covering up the murder of two co-eds committed by another student. Should EMU be destroyed first, and then rebuilt?

PSU is going to pay in two ways. One, they will pay damages in civil suits. Two, 10% of AD money is going to children services charities. What would destroying football accomplish?

Detach yourself for a second. I don't know anything about the culture and widespread influence of E. Michigan. Simple question: Would you be comfortable showering and using the sauna after a hard practice/game at the same facility that Jerry Sandusky did what he did?

Yes - I'm talking about complete destroying that facility. I'm talking about sanctions to the football program strong enough such that officials in the institution, now and in the future, NEVER put defending their athletic department in a position on the priority list of actions that supercedes something like - bringing a child rapist to justice. I know - your response - well - they did report him..........f8ck that. This man was bringing boys into the showers at the football facility for at least two decades, and nobody stopped him.

It appears, after careful review of the NCAA 439 page operating manual, that the only way it happens, is if Penn State self-imposes.

I applaud Mr. McQueary for being the citizen-warrior to make a change, and get in the spotlight to say something is not right, even as long as it took. I wonder why people all over pennsylvania and penn state aren't shouting from the tops of the blue ridge mountains about all the change that should be happening right now (and I hope is happening), in procedures, in laws of the land, in the way individuals conduct themselves and are held accountable.......and ignoring this trial.....confident that justice willl be done to the man - and instead publicly demonstrating how and why something like the coverup of Jerry Sandusky will never happen again......but the culture of Penn STate is not to do that.

Instead, it appears that entire culture, the entire state of pennsylvania, instead, is paying breathless attention to what side of a he said / she said argument over who knew what, and said what, when, and everybody is simply saying - well those people aren't at the university anymore, when somebody like me questions. ......no they're gone - can you imagine if they were still there? That's a given - they all should be gone.

The question is what's being done to change everything that allowed those people to exist in that culture as they did.

The fact that nobody is talking about these things, as loudly as they can, and instead, just like you here upstater, are following this trial to find out he said/ she said......is what I'm talking about. Everything I just wrote is dealing with teh social problem through the heart. If it is happening, why aren't people talking about it? If it's not - the fist is definitely necessary.

 

[mattp]

how can you applaud McQuery as a "citizen-warrior" when he acted as a bystander while a child was raped? i think people are getting too caught up on the reporting and not enough on his allowing it to happen

 

[Carl Spackler]

how can you applaud McQuery as a "citizen-warrior" when he acted as a bystander while a child was raped? i think people are getting too caught up on the reporting and not enough on his allowing it to happen

I"ve read the disgusting documents in this case. There is a statement by a janitor, in the prelim documents of this case, where he says he witnessed Jerry Sandusky in an act, found himself able to do nothing about the situation, and that eventually caused a complete mental breakdown. This was a combat veteran in Vietnam that clearly said that what he witnessed for that single moment, caused him more anguish and pain and mental disorder, than all the blood, guts and death of that war.

I don't know how I'd react to seeing/witnessing this man in the act. I'd hope that I would react differently than McQueary did. I'm not sure any human being can definitively predict what they would do in the presence of such a thing happening. He came forward, eventually, and he is the man that stepped up to question the culture that had been defended and protected for so long, and yes - for - that I label him as a citizen warrior.

 

[upstater]

Detach yourself for a second. I don't know anything about the culture and widespread influence of E. Michigan.

The president is covering for a murderer. What more do you need to0 know? Or, are you saying you know the culture at PSU but not at EMU? Find that hard to believe.

Simple question: Would you be comfortable showering and using the sauna after a hard practice/game at the same facility that Jerry Sandusky did what he did.

Yes, of course I would. You're saying they also need to waste tens if not hundreds of millions to build new facilities? Is your position that Catholic churches should be destroyed as well?

The rest of what you wrote is just a screed to make yourself feel better.

 

[CL82]

Did I say that? I actually said the exact opposite.

Ah, then I misunderstood it. It seemed out of character for you.