Why no talk of death penalty for Penn State?

[upstater]

Talk about putting words in people's mouths. Try to stay on some point. Just pick one you like and then make up the rest.

JimDish, what in the world are you talking about? I wasn't responding to you. Someone else said the exact thing in my quote verbatim.

 

[Palatine]

I'll just wait for the book to bring all the facts out. But it sure looks like all the Penn State coaches and administrators were on the same sheet of music. It was the Sargent Schultz "I see nothing, I know nothing." protect the football program priority plan.

How many knew is a mystery but it was a lot of folks.

 

[upstater]

I'll just wait for the book to bring all the facts out. But it sure looks like all the Penn State coaches and administrators were on the same sheet of music. It was the Sargent Schultz "I see nothing, I know nothing." protect the football program priority plan.

How many knew is a mystery but it was a lot of folks.

Could be. We'll see. The emails that PSU turned over two weeks ago should go a long way in telling us what Spanier knew, and how they conducted inquiries.

 

[businesslawyer]

As for "lack of institutional control" as defined by the NCAA, this does not fit under that context.

Read here: http://compliance.pac-10.org/thetools/instctl.pdf

Like many of us have said, this matter is criminal and is beyond the jurisdiction of the NCAA.

Well, actually reading the rule has changed my opinion. I would have thought that the program would not be responsible for what Sandusky did, but would be responsible for covering it up to protect the football program (which very well might have been what happened). Unfortunately, the NCAA defines "institutional control" as control over compliance with NCAA rules, and not in a more general sense.

 

[upstater]

Well, actually reading the rule has changed my opinion. I would have thought that the program would not be responsible for what Sandusky did, but would be responsible for covering it up to protect the football program (which very well might have been what happened). Unfortunately, the NCAA defines "institutional control" as control over compliance with NCAA rules, and not in a more general sense.

The NCAA has already clarified on this matter. They did say that it could issue penalties (I'm assuming even if it had nothing to do with NCAA rules).

 

[upstater]

Just in case people are interested, Dr. Dranov said this morning that though McQueary wouldn't tell him what he saw, he was clearly distraught by what he had seen. Still, Dranov advised him not to go to the police. His testimony was followed up by a Second Mile person who said McQueary continued to sign up for Sandusky's Second Mile events after 2001.

A mixed bag, all in all. While questions about McQueary's lack of clarity were reinforced, the Dr. said that it was because he was so distraught. Nonetheless, the doctor advised him not to tell police.

 

[Carl Spackler]

The doctor told him to go tell Joe Paterno. McQueary did go to Joe Paterno and tell him what he experienced that evening in the locker room facility at Penn State. Are my facts still messed up?

 

[upstater]

The doctor told him to go tell Joe Paterno. McQueary did go to Joe Paterno and tell him what he experienced that evening in the locker room facility at Penn State. Are my facts still messed up?

And McQueary did. He told Joe exactly what he told the doctor. And like the doctor, Joe didn't tell him to go to police.

 

[Carl Spackler]

And McQueary did. He told Joe exactly what he told the doctor. And like the doctor, Joe didn't tell him to go to police.

Just curious - do you find anything wrong with that? Paterno not telling him to go to the police?

FYI: McQueary didn't tell the doctor anything that would be required (at least by CT law) to be reported regarding child abuse. That's why the doctor kept asking him to tell him exactly what he saw, b/c if he did...at least in CT - that doctor's duty would be to be on the phone to the state department of child services. But, understandably, the guy couldn't put into words. Visibly shaking. The testimony of the janitor, who's no longer a witness I believe, is such that the guy said that he saw all the blood and guts of war, experienced it first hand, combat in Vietnam I believe and was able to handle it better than most - but seeing Sandusky "licking on him" a boy in a shower, mentally shattered that janitor.

There are statutes in CT, that apply to professionals regarding reporting child abuse. I'm not familiar with PA law regarding such issues. In CT, I would hope that a doctor would do exactly what this Doctor did, and tell the man to go to his superiors and tell them everything. If PA law is in any way close to CT law on such matters, the doctor did his duty. As did McQueary.

But then you get to the heart of the matter - Paterno. The entire culture of Penn State University. THe man with the power to make decisions that superceded what the vast majority of people have power to do. A decision was made about what to do with Sandusky, by Paterno, several years before McQueary told Paterno about seeing him in the shower with a boy, and nothing McQueary told Paterno, apparently made him decide to do anything more than what had already been done.

Paterno, one of his last words, was that he wished he had done more. God rest his soul, I hope that he meant turning Sandusky over to proper authorities for investigation, the very first time he suspected something, only the Lord knows when Paterno first suspected something - regardless of what it meant to the reputation of Penn State University, rather than doing more about keeping Sandusky under wraps and house arrest.

have a nice day. going out to run to get some of this negative filth energy off of me.

 

[upstater]

Just curious - do you find anything wrong with that? Paterno not telling him to go to the police?

FYI: McQueary didn't tell the doctor anything that would be required (at least by CT law) to be reported regarding child abuse. That's why the doctor kept asking him to tell him exactly what he saw, b/c if he did...at least in CT - that doctor's duty would be to be on the phone to the state department of child services. But, understandably, the guy couldn't put into words. Visibly shaking. The testimony of the janitor, who's no longer a witness I believe, is such that the guy said that he saw all the blood and guts of war, experienced it first hand, combat in Vietnam I believe and was able to handle it better than most - but seeing Sandusky "licking on him" a boy in a shower, mentally shattered that janitor.

There are statutes in CT, that apply to professionals regarding reporting child abuse. I'm not familiar with PA law regarding such issues. In CT, I would hope that a doctor would do exactly what this Doctor did, and tell the man to go to his superiors and tell them everything. If PA law is in any way close to CT law on such matters, the doctor did his duty. As did McQueary.

But then you get to the heart of the matter - Paterno. The entire culture of Penn State University. THe man with the power to make decisions that superceded what the vast majority of people have power to do. A decision was made about what to do with Sandusky, by Paterno, several years before McQueary told Paterno about seeing him in the shower with a boy, and nothing McQueary told Paterno, apparently made him decide to do anything more than what had already been done.

Paterno, one of his last words, was that he wished he had done more. God rest his soul, I hope that he meant turning Sandusky over to proper authorities for investigation, the very first time he suspected something, only the Lord knows when Paterno first suspected something - regardless of what it meant to the reputation of Penn State University, rather than doing more about keeping Sandusky under wraps and house arrest.

have a nice day. going out to run to get some of this negative filth energy off of me.

No, I can't understand your reasoning. McQueary told Paterno what he had told the doctor. You're saying that it's understandable the doctor didn't tell him to call police. The doctor did his duty? But Paterno didn't? Makes no sense to me, especially since only one of them is bound by procedures to go to police. The other, a powerful football coach, is bound to follow university procedures and report to his superiors--even if less powerful than he is.

After the fact (i.e. when his superiors did nothing), I do believe Paterno should have gone to the police. (Although much remains to be seen about what went on in the emails between President, VP of police, and the lawyers). And for that he deserved to be fired. And, after the fact, the doctor should have gone to police as well, but he didn't. Just as Paterno followed up with superiors, I'm sure the doctor followed up with McQueary. Furthermore, Paterno never said he wished he had done more. He said, "In hindsight, I wish I had done more." There's a difference. This is the equivalent of Condoleeza Rice's "Knowing what we know now." No ' duh! Who wouldn't?

 

[MilliniumPrince]

As a grown man no one have to tell me to go to the police.

 

[Carl Spackler]

No, I can't understand your reasoning. McQueary told Paterno what he had told the doctor. You're saying that it's understandable the doctor didn't tell him to call police. The doctor did his duty? But Paterno didn't? Makes no sense to me, especially since only one of them is bound by procedures to go to police. The other, a powerful football coach, is bound to follow university procedures and report to his superiors--even if less powerful than he is.

After the fact (i.e. when his superiors did nothing), I do believe Paterno should have gone to the police. (Although much remains to be seen about what went on in the emails between President, VP of police, and the lawyers). And for that he deserved to be fired. And, after the fact, the doctor should have gone to police as well, but he didn't. Just as Paterno followed up with superiors, I'm sure the doctor followed up with McQueary. Furthermore, Paterno never said he wished he had done more. He said, "In hindsight, I wish I had done more." There's a difference. This is the equivalent of Condoleeza Rice's "Knowing what we know now." No ' duh! Who wouldn't?

If you're attitude and tone, in this entire discussion here, and other discussion..., toward this whole situation in any way reflects the general attitude, consensus of the Penn State culture in what happened, and is currently happening, then I absolutely, 100% stand behind the concept that the Penn State football program deserves a death penalty ban on competition. It would be the only way to really establish that the culture of penn state is NOT above the life of a single child.

You can say that you believe so and so deserves what they get, and punishment that, and new people here now, and those people are gone that.....and Paterno's dead.......but everything between the lines in communication says otherwise as to how you feel. In hindsight? F8ck that. My opinion, is that Joe Paterno, the idol, had a fatal flaw in that he chose to handle Sandusky - for many, many years with his own power, and it wasn't enough to stop Sandusky, and he never corrected that flaw. Your attitude here, reflects that general idol worship, that is unwilling to accept how ugly and fatal that flaw was.

It will never happen, the death penalty, but that's how I feel.

Hopefully this trial ends soon, and as Rick Reilly put it - Sandusky ends up in the general population in the clink, for the rest of his days on this earth.

 

[upstater]

If you're attitude and tone, in this entire discussion here, and other discussion..., toward this whole situation in any way reflects the general attitude, consensus of the Penn State culture in what happened, and is currently happening, then I absolutely, 100% stand behind the concept that the Penn State football program deserves a death penalty ban on competition. It would be the only way to really establish that the culture of penn state is NOT above the life of a single child.

You can say that you believe so and so deserves what they get, and punishment that, and new people here now, and those people are gone that.....and Paterno's dead.......but everything between the lines in communication says otherwise as to how you feel. In hindsight? F8ck that. My opinion, is that Joe Paterno, the idol, had a fatal flaw in that he chose to handle Sandusky - for many, many years with his own power, and it wasn't enough to stop Sandusky, and he never corrected that flaw. Your attitude here, reflects that general idol worship, that is unwilling to accept how ugly and fatal that flaw was.

It will never happen, the death penalty, but that's how I feel.

Hopefully this trial ends soon, and as Rick Reilly put it - Sandusky ends up in the general population in the clink, for the rest of his days on this earth.

You're really losing your mind. How can you even discuss anything whatsoever if you're going to distort everything?

 

[upstater]

As a grown man no one have to tell me to go to the police.

You do realize I'm criticizing McQueary, right?

 

[NHUConnfan]

Well, actually reading the rule has changed my opinion. I would have thought that the program would not be responsible for what Sandusky did, but would be responsible for covering it up to protect the football program (which very well might have been what happened). Unfortunately, the NCAA defines "institutional control" as control over compliance with NCAA rules, and not in a more general sense.

Now let me ask you, since you're a lawyer. How difficult would it be to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this was done to protect the football program? For me, all lawyers need to do is say it was to protect the university (more broadly) and the doubt is already cast.

 

[Carl Spackler]

You're really losing your mind. How can you even discuss anything whatsoever if you're going to distort everything?

Thinking about what happened in the locker rooms and sauna of the penn state football facilities,that a guy like Sandusky could regularly bring kids into the showers in full view of other coaches, that people KNEW about his behavior for so long, and what happened on football team road trips in team hotels, will do that to a person. Losing your mind that is. I'm not distorting anything. I've been very clear as to what my opinion is, the conclusions I've drawn based on the evidence are my opinion. ....you do know the difference right? between fact and opinion?

Eric Greitens, who is clearly one of those human beings that God puts on this planet to change the world, wrote an autobiography a few years ago called the Heart and the Fist. I highly recommend reading it. A very western and modern and stunningly simple explanation of life, the eastern principle of yin and yang through western experience.

THere are times wehn compassion, and passivity and communication in maintaining or severing social ties are the ways to fix some kind of social problem. And there are times when the only way you can fix a social problem is to bring down the hammer with brute force and inflict damage. Facts. That you cannot see the ongoing social problem with the culture of penn state university, that I see, is my evidence that the problem exists.

My opinion is that the time has long passed, for going through the heart to fix the problem and the only way to fix the problem is to bring the fist to the athletic department and football program at Penn State.

THe NCAA Is a limp wrist kind of organization though, for this matter. So that fist has to come from somewhere else.

 

[businesslawyer]

Now let me ask you, since you're a lawyer. How difficult would it be to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this was done to protect the football program? For me, all lawyers need to do is say it was to protect the university (more broadly) and the doubt is already cast.

I don't know. That's facts, not law. I would guess that you could do it, but I just don't know.

But if the cover up isn't related to NCAA rules, the way I read the rule linked above it's not a lack of institutional control as the NCAA uses the term.

 

[NHUConnfan]

I don't know. That's facts, not law. I would guess that you could do it, but I just don't know.

But if the cover up isn't related to NCAA rules, the way I read the rule linked above it's not a lack of institutional control as the NCAA uses the term.

Yes, exactly what I was saying to counter Palatine and the rest.

 

[upstater]

Yes, exactly what I was saying to counter Palatine and the rest.

But again, the NCAA reacts like Roger Goodell. It does what it wants.

 

[Adios]

But again, the NCAA reacts like Roger Goodell. It does what it wants.

Given that, there will be no death penalty. The new coaching staff at PSU is creating a new culture. What's past is past, they're still a member of the B1G. And still a powerful one, too. It's amazing what agricultural schools have become in the US.

 

[NHUConnfan]

Given that, there will be no death penalty. The new coaching staff at PSU is creating a new culture. What's past is past, they're still a member of the B1G. And still a powerful one, too. It's amazing what agricultural schools have become in the US.

I would sincerely hope you don't think PSU is just an ag school. They've got several top programs. It's a fantastic public university.

 

[CL82]

The assistant coach has said he never told the head coach that. He even testified to that under oath last week. The head coach said that the assistant told him that something of a sexual nature occurred. The assistant verified that. Then the assistant said he was more explicit with the administrators. The administrators claim he was not. We shall see whom jurors find more trustworthy soon.
.

So you are saying that upon hearing that an adult man and a child were in a shower together and that "something of a sexual nature occurred" between them no had a duty to act? I think at point there is both a legal and a moral duty to act. Frankly, I don't think I'd be able to live with myself if I took no action upon hearing that.

 

[Adios]

I would sincerely hope you don't think PSU is just an ag school. They've got several top programs. It's a fantastic public university.

It started out as an agricultural high school.

 

[upstater]

So you are saying that upon hearing that an adult man and a child were in a shower together and that "something of a sexual nature occurred" between them no had a duty to act? I think at point there is both a legal and a moral duty to act. Frankly, I don't think I'd be able to live with myself if I took no action upon hearing that.

Did I say that? I actually said the exact opposite.

 

[mattp]

upstater said: ↑

The assistant coach has said he never told the head coach that. He even testified to that under oath last week. The head coach said that the assistant told him that something of a sexual nature occurred. The assistant verified that. Then the assistant said he was more explicit with the administrators. The administrators claim he was not. We shall see whom jurors find more trustworthy soon.​

.​

So you are saying that upon hearing that an adult man and a child were in a shower together and that "something of a sexual nature occurred" between them no had a duty to act? I think at point there is both a legal and a moral duty to act. Frankly, I don't think I'd be able to live with myself if I took no action upon hearing that.

how could you possibly have gotten that from what he said? he said the assistants said they were explicit and the administrators said he was not and we'll find out who the jury believes and you take that as him saying nobody had a duty to act? reread what you actually quoted yourself

 

[Jarhead_1775]

So you are saying that upon hearing that an adult man and a child were in a shower together and that "something of a sexual nature occurred" between them no had a duty to act? I think at point there is both a legal and a moral duty to act. Frankly, I don't think I'd be able to live with myself if I took no action upon hearing that.

Speaking as someone who falls into the "mandated reporter" category, NO details are necessary. I could and should be charged under the statute if I failed to report that "something of a sexual nature" took place and I failed to report it. The law is set up so that the proper authorities make the determination if abuse has occurred, not a football coach, not a doctor. Pa's laws must be very lax compared to ct's if this doctor isn't swinging for failing to report.

 

[NHUConnfan]

It started out as an agricultural high school.

Funny, most public universities did.

 

[upstater]

Speaking as someone who falls into the "mandated reporter" category, NO details are necessary. I could and should be charged under the statute if I failed to report that "something of a sexual nature" took place and I failed to report it. The law is set up so that the proper authorities make the determination if abuse has occurred, not a football coach, not a doctor. Pa's laws must be very lax compared to ct's if this doctor isn't swinging for failing to report.

This is why there is controversy. Why didn't the doctor report it? Pa's laws aren't lax. There were two mandatory reporters involved in the chain of info from McQueary. The doctor and the supervisor of the UP police. Both of them should have reported. Neither did. When asked about this, the doctor said he didn't advise or report because of McQueary's testimony. Because of this case, statutes have changed. Right now, procedures require immediate reporting for everyone. You don't need to go to a superior.

 

[Carl Spackler]

In an attempt for upstater - to understand where I'm coming from - I offer this - you do have some kind literature/education background correct? A quote from Eric Greitens. Purple heart &bronze medal honoree, 4 time deployed Navy Seal covert operations commander in the War on Terror, Ph. D., Oxford University Rhodes Scholar, Greenpeace humanitarian worker in eastern europe and africa....oh yeah, and founder of the Mission Continues.

As a man of action, education and accomplishment, do you feel some link with the ancient and esoteric concept of a warrior-poet?


I think it’s incredibly important that we have true citizen-warriors, and I do feel a strong link to the concept of what it means to be a citizen-warrior. When you look at Greek history, and for instance the plays of Aeschylus, who was a warrior at Marathon; when you look at Sophocles, who was both a General and a playwright, I think it becomes clear why they were able to write so powerfully about courage and tragedy. They drew from their own life experiences. Citizen-warriors live full lives, and the writings of the Greek citizen-warriors, or warrior-poets, speak to that.

To be a citizen is both to protect and to create, to defend and to build something worth defending. In the Greek Polis that was understood intimately, because for a city to be defended, it needed its citizens to be capable of being warriors. For a city to be prosperous, it needed citizens that could do more than be warriors. So, I think that the idea of the citizen-warrior, or, as we now say, the citizen-soldier, is really at the heart of any democratic society.




To be a citizen is to both protect and to create. To defend, and to build somethign worth defending.


I don't see anything happening at Penn State, except defending what the ultlimate citizen, Joe Paterno - created.........and what Joe Paterno created, because of how he handled Jerry Sandusky - is not worth defending, and deserves complete destruction and then a rebuild.

But it seems to me, that penn state, would rather have this thing over as soon as possible, have their fall guys, and then continue business as usual with their elitist attitude that was built by Joe Paterno over 6 decades.

Yes - if a citizen at UConn - if what was allowed to happen the way it did at penn state, happened at uconn, i would want complete destruction before a rebuild too. Complete destruction and rebuild for UConn. FIring people is not enough. THe culture needs to be changed, and destruction is the only way to ensure that it changes. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be any force able to do it, aside from the civil lawsuits that are sure to drain Penn State a bit, but I fear that that kind of thing, is not strong enough.

My opinions.

Stay cool.

 

[upstater]

In an attempt for upstater - to understand where I'm coming from - I offer this - you do have some kind literature/education background correct? A quote from Eric Greitens. Purple heart &bronze medal honoree, 4 time deployed Navy Seal covert operations commander in the War on Terror, Ph. D., Oxford University Rhodes Scholar, Greenpeace humanitarian worker in eastern europe and africa....oh yeah, and founder of the Mission Continues.

As a man of action, education and accomplishment, do you feel some link with the ancient and esoteric concept of a warrior-poet?


I think it’s incredibly important that we have true citizen-warriors, and I do feel a strong link to the concept of what it means to be a citizen-warrior. When you look at Greek history, and for instance the plays of Aeschylus, who was a warrior at Marathon; when you look at Sophocles, who was both a General and a playwright, I think it becomes clear why they were able to write so powerfully about courage and tragedy. They drew from their own life experiences. Citizen-warriors live full lives, and the writings of the Greek citizen-warriors, or warrior-poets, speak to that.

To be a citizen is both to protect and to create, to defend and to build something worth defending. In the Greek Polis that was understood intimately, because for a city to be defended, it needed its citizens to be capable of being warriors. For a city to be prosperous, it needed citizens that could do more than be warriors. So, I think that the idea of the citizen-warrior, or, as we now say, the citizen-soldier, is really at the heart of any democratic society.




To be a citizen is to both protect and to create. To defend, and to build somethign worth defending.


I don't see anything happening at Penn State, except defending what the ultlimate citizen, Joe Paterno - created.........and what Joe Paterno created, because of how he handled Jerry Sandusky - is not worth defending, and deserves complete destruction and then a rebuild.

But it seems to me, that penn state, would rather have this thing over as soon as possible, have their fall guys, and then continue business as usual with their elitist attitude that was built by Joe Paterno over 6 decades.

Yes - if a citizen at UConn - if what was allowed to happen the way it did at penn state, happened at uconn, i would want complete destruction before a rebuild too. Complete destruction and rebuild for UConn. FIring people is not enough. THe culture needs to be changed, and destruction is the only way to ensure that it changes. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be any force able to do it, aside from the civil lawsuits that are sure to drain Penn State a bit, but I fear that that kind of thing, is not strong enough.

My opinions.

Stay cool.

What PSU should do is run a clean program that reports child molesters immediately. That's what I expect they are doing. Your logic would have them totally destroy the football program first. Well, would you apply that same logic to Eastern Michigan University, where the President was found guilty of covering up the murder of two co-eds committed by another student. Should EMU be destroyed first, and then rebuilt?

PSU is going to pay in two ways. One, they will pay damages in civil suits. Two, 10% of AD money is going to children services charities. What would destroying football accomplish?