Why no talk of death penalty for Penn State?

[Carl Spackler]

For some people, not only should the NCAA be an arbiter, but the NCAA should create rules that guide universities in how to handle crime investigations.

I'll take that as some ridiculous shot at me.

I firmly believe that Sandusky would be in shackles a long time ago, if the powers at Penn State, felt threatened at all by an organization like the NCAA......and it makes me sick.

That those powers didn't apparently feel the need to properly investigate a serial pedophile, that police, district attorneys, governors very likely closed doors and buried their heads in the sand, but may have done more had the NCAA threatened the athletic department with major sanctions....is my opinion only. It's a conclusion I've come to on my own, and it makes me sick.

No - upstater - the NCAA shouldn't have to be in position to legislate on criminal matters - but the culture of Penn State has apparently made it something that the NCAA should have to address, and that should make you ashamed.

I believe, that by the NCAA putting a simple line in the 439 page manual, stating that knowledge or evidence of suspected criminal behavior by representatives of the athletic departments of member institutions, occurring on university premises, or at university athletic functions, or at university athletic facilites, should be properly reported to authorities....if that existed -....... - it's highly, HIGHLY likely that a guy like Sandusky isn't just given a pink slip and corner closet office at Penn State for over a decade, and the souls of innocent children could have been spared of the torture inflicted and to be endured.

Penn State people simply don't want to believe that Joe Paterno very likely made a conscious choice to handle Jerry Sandusky in-house, and used every bit of his executive, legislative, judicial and social influence to do it.

I'm letting my emotions get control of me again on this, and it makes me want to beat the out of somebody. Enough wading through the cesspool that is Penn State's involvement with Jerry Sandusky today for me.

 

[upstater]

Penn State, judging by the way things shook out for the Catholic Church, is going to lose tens of millions per victim, easily over $100 million. The idea that the NCAA is going to be some kind of deterrent in a case like this is laughable. PSU, and by PSU I'm talking about the three principals in this case (I'm including Spanier on the assumption that he's going to be indicted), screwed up royally. The idea that they had any clue about this exposure is hard to imagine.

 

[upstater]

What did they lie about?

About what McQueary told them. They claim McQueary did not tell them about the rape.

 

[Carl Spackler]

You are saying there should be less punishment. I am saying there should be more. Criminal penalties should not be the only penalties that attach. Penn State as an organization acted in a corrupt and fraudulent manner that resulted in years of continued sexual assaults on children. Penn State did this in order to protect the reputation of the organization and the football team. The organization should get punished.

The fans of Penn State do not have the RIGHT to have a Top 20 football program, especially if the price is serial child rape. If Penn State fans are so inclined, they can root for the program after it comes back from the death penalty.

I actually agree with Nelson here. The problem is, that to my knowledge, there's nothign the NCAA has to go on to punish the penn state athletic department for whatever involvement is proven with Sandusky's sexual abuse of boys.

The conclusion, again, that I have reached....is that the only reason that Sandusky wasn't shackled a long time ago....is because the athletic department at Penn State never felt threatened by choosing to handle things the way they did, AND that the culture of that community was such that it could be handled the way it was handled for so long. If a college community ever deserved a death penalty to its division 1-A football program, it is Penn State. But the NCAA f9cked up with SMU in 1987.

It makes me sick and makes me never want to go to State College, PA again. It's worse than a Stephen King novel about some small community somewhere in Maine.

 

[Carl Spackler]

About what McQueary told them. They claim McQueary did not tell them about the rape.

So if McQuery didn't tell them - how did they find out about it?

 

[MilliniumPrince]

if you don't understand my mall analogy, let me put it this way. if a high school kid walks into his high school and shoots a teacher, whose job is it to punish the student? is he going to be arrested and tried for murder, or is he going down to the guidance counselor and principal to be suspended? the NCAA is the worthless guidance counselor and principal in this analogy. do you get it now? i'm not saying you have to agree, but do you at least see where some of us are coming from?

also as much as some here say "PennState" enabled it, PennState is an institution of over million people if you include alumni, over 100k if you include students and faculty. i doubt more than a dozen are responsible, some of whom didn't work at PSU, but in local law enforcement, so no "PennState" didn't allow this, a few administrators did, and i hope they're punished to the fullest extent of the law

In this example the student would be expelled from said school even if it was a moot point due to his imprisonment.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Sold!!

Though I am not advocating for the death penalty...but it should be on the table if warranted after a full investigation.

 

[upstater]

So if McQuery didn't tell them - how did they find out about it?

They claim they found out about it during the grand jury testimony.

 

[upstater]

In this example the student would be expelled from said school even if it was a moot point due to his imprisonment.

All the principals and even people associated with the football program and even assistant athletic directors are gone from PSU. New President, new veeps, new ADs, new football coaches, new assistant ADs, new lawyers.

 

[Carl Spackler]

They claim they found out about it during the grand jury testimony.

Can you take a step back and see the forest now, or do I have to continue with the questions? Never mind let's continue.

How is it, that these individuals who are accused of perjury, may not have found out about an assistant coach telling the head coach, that he saw another assistant coach butt f8cking a boy in the shower of the football facility until a grand jury testimony a decade later?

 

[Carl Spackler]

All the principals and even people associated with the football program and even assistant athletic directors are gone from PSU. New President, new veeps, new ADs, new football coaches, new assistant ADs, new lawyers.

so? How come it didn't happen the morning that JoePa failed to put Sandusky in jail?

 

[Jimdish255]

For some people, not only should the NCAA be an arbiter, but the NCAA should create rules that guide universities in how to handle crime investigations.

Talk about putting words in people's mouths. Try to stay on some point. Just pick one you like and then make up the rest.

 

[Jimdish255]

also, i hope anyone that's advocating the death penalty is also advocating that the Catholic church lose it's non-profit status, tax treatment and be disbarred from any appearances as an organization in public. i think they are probably the truest comparison in terms of crime, scope, and supposedly accountable people looking the other way.

That's a good point and I'd probably agree, then duck for cover. Gotta go. Try to settle this soon gentlemen.

 

[upstater]

Can you take a step back and see the forest now, or do I have to continue with the questions? Never mind let's continue.

How is it, that these individuals who are accused of perjury, may not have found out about an assistant coach telling the head coach, that he saw another assistant coach butt f8cking a boy in the shower of the football facility until a grand jury testimony a decade later?

The assistant coach has said he never told the head coach that. He even testified to that under oath last week. The head coach said that the assistant told him that something of a sexual nature occurred. The assistant verified that. Then the assistant said he was more explicit with the administrators. The administrators claim he was not. We shall see whom jurors find more trustworthy soon.

The real question is not, can I take a step back, but can you get your facts straight?

Dr. Dranov testifies today, by the way.

 

[upstater]

so? How come it didn't happen the morning that JoePa failed to put Sandusky in jail?

I'm responding to the previous post where the poster said these people should be expelled. What part of that do you not understand?

 

[upstater]

Talk about putting words in people's mouths. Try to stay on some point. Just pick one you like and then make up the rest.

JimDish, what in the world are you talking about? I wasn't responding to you. Someone else said the exact thing in my quote verbatim.

 

[Palatine]

I'll just wait for the book to bring all the facts out. But it sure looks like all the Penn State coaches and administrators were on the same sheet of music. It was the Sargent Schultz "I see nothing, I know nothing." protect the football program priority plan.

How many knew is a mystery but it was a lot of folks.

 

[upstater]

I'll just wait for the book to bring all the facts out. But it sure looks like all the Penn State coaches and administrators were on the same sheet of music. It was the Sargent Schultz "I see nothing, I know nothing." protect the football program priority plan.

How many knew is a mystery but it was a lot of folks.

Could be. We'll see. The emails that PSU turned over two weeks ago should go a long way in telling us what Spanier knew, and how they conducted inquiries.

 

[businesslawyer]

As for "lack of institutional control" as defined by the NCAA, this does not fit under that context.

Read here: http://compliance.pac-10.org/thetools/instctl.pdf

Like many of us have said, this matter is criminal and is beyond the jurisdiction of the NCAA.

Well, actually reading the rule has changed my opinion. I would have thought that the program would not be responsible for what Sandusky did, but would be responsible for covering it up to protect the football program (which very well might have been what happened). Unfortunately, the NCAA defines "institutional control" as control over compliance with NCAA rules, and not in a more general sense.

 

[upstater]

Well, actually reading the rule has changed my opinion. I would have thought that the program would not be responsible for what Sandusky did, but would be responsible for covering it up to protect the football program (which very well might have been what happened). Unfortunately, the NCAA defines "institutional control" as control over compliance with NCAA rules, and not in a more general sense.

The NCAA has already clarified on this matter. They did say that it could issue penalties (I'm assuming even if it had nothing to do with NCAA rules).

 

[upstater]

Just in case people are interested, Dr. Dranov said this morning that though McQueary wouldn't tell him what he saw, he was clearly distraught by what he had seen. Still, Dranov advised him not to go to the police. His testimony was followed up by a Second Mile person who said McQueary continued to sign up for Sandusky's Second Mile events after 2001.

A mixed bag, all in all. While questions about McQueary's lack of clarity were reinforced, the Dr. said that it was because he was so distraught. Nonetheless, the doctor advised him not to tell police.

 

[Carl Spackler]

The doctor told him to go tell Joe Paterno. McQueary did go to Joe Paterno and tell him what he experienced that evening in the locker room facility at Penn State. Are my facts still messed up?

 

[upstater]

The doctor told him to go tell Joe Paterno. McQueary did go to Joe Paterno and tell him what he experienced that evening in the locker room facility at Penn State. Are my facts still messed up?

And McQueary did. He told Joe exactly what he told the doctor. And like the doctor, Joe didn't tell him to go to police.

 

[Carl Spackler]

And McQueary did. He told Joe exactly what he told the doctor. And like the doctor, Joe didn't tell him to go to police.

Just curious - do you find anything wrong with that? Paterno not telling him to go to the police?

FYI: McQueary didn't tell the doctor anything that would be required (at least by CT law) to be reported regarding child abuse. That's why the doctor kept asking him to tell him exactly what he saw, b/c if he did...at least in CT - that doctor's duty would be to be on the phone to the state department of child services. But, understandably, the guy couldn't put into words. Visibly shaking. The testimony of the janitor, who's no longer a witness I believe, is such that the guy said that he saw all the blood and guts of war, experienced it first hand, combat in Vietnam I believe and was able to handle it better than most - but seeing Sandusky "licking on him" a boy in a shower, mentally shattered that janitor.

There are statutes in CT, that apply to professionals regarding reporting child abuse. I'm not familiar with PA law regarding such issues. In CT, I would hope that a doctor would do exactly what this Doctor did, and tell the man to go to his superiors and tell them everything. If PA law is in any way close to CT law on such matters, the doctor did his duty. As did McQueary.

But then you get to the heart of the matter - Paterno. The entire culture of Penn State University. THe man with the power to make decisions that superceded what the vast majority of people have power to do. A decision was made about what to do with Sandusky, by Paterno, several years before McQueary told Paterno about seeing him in the shower with a boy, and nothing McQueary told Paterno, apparently made him decide to do anything more than what had already been done.

Paterno, one of his last words, was that he wished he had done more. God rest his soul, I hope that he meant turning Sandusky over to proper authorities for investigation, the very first time he suspected something, only the Lord knows when Paterno first suspected something - regardless of what it meant to the reputation of Penn State University, rather than doing more about keeping Sandusky under wraps and house arrest.

have a nice day. going out to run to get some of this negative filth energy off of me.

 

[upstater]

Just curious - do you find anything wrong with that? Paterno not telling him to go to the police?

FYI: McQueary didn't tell the doctor anything that would be required (at least by CT law) to be reported regarding child abuse. That's why the doctor kept asking him to tell him exactly what he saw, b/c if he did...at least in CT - that doctor's duty would be to be on the phone to the state department of child services. But, understandably, the guy couldn't put into words. Visibly shaking. The testimony of the janitor, who's no longer a witness I believe, is such that the guy said that he saw all the blood and guts of war, experienced it first hand, combat in Vietnam I believe and was able to handle it better than most - but seeing Sandusky "licking on him" a boy in a shower, mentally shattered that janitor.

There are statutes in CT, that apply to professionals regarding reporting child abuse. I'm not familiar with PA law regarding such issues. In CT, I would hope that a doctor would do exactly what this Doctor did, and tell the man to go to his superiors and tell them everything. If PA law is in any way close to CT law on such matters, the doctor did his duty. As did McQueary.

But then you get to the heart of the matter - Paterno. The entire culture of Penn State University. THe man with the power to make decisions that superceded what the vast majority of people have power to do. A decision was made about what to do with Sandusky, by Paterno, several years before McQueary told Paterno about seeing him in the shower with a boy, and nothing McQueary told Paterno, apparently made him decide to do anything more than what had already been done.

Paterno, one of his last words, was that he wished he had done more. God rest his soul, I hope that he meant turning Sandusky over to proper authorities for investigation, the very first time he suspected something, only the Lord knows when Paterno first suspected something - regardless of what it meant to the reputation of Penn State University, rather than doing more about keeping Sandusky under wraps and house arrest.

have a nice day. going out to run to get some of this negative filth energy off of me.

No, I can't understand your reasoning. McQueary told Paterno what he had told the doctor. You're saying that it's understandable the doctor didn't tell him to call police. The doctor did his duty? But Paterno didn't? Makes no sense to me, especially since only one of them is bound by procedures to go to police. The other, a powerful football coach, is bound to follow university procedures and report to his superiors--even if less powerful than he is.

After the fact (i.e. when his superiors did nothing), I do believe Paterno should have gone to the police. (Although much remains to be seen about what went on in the emails between President, VP of police, and the lawyers). And for that he deserved to be fired. And, after the fact, the doctor should have gone to police as well, but he didn't. Just as Paterno followed up with superiors, I'm sure the doctor followed up with McQueary. Furthermore, Paterno never said he wished he had done more. He said, "In hindsight, I wish I had done more." There's a difference. This is the equivalent of Condoleeza Rice's "Knowing what we know now." No ' duh! Who wouldn't?