Why are there no more dominant big east scorers?

[Excalibur]

I’d disagree.

Yeah, instruction, fitness, training methods all get worse over time.

 

[superjohn]

Yeah, instruction, fitness, training methods all get worse over time.

It's probably better right now than 10 years ago because of NIL and the NBA's aversion to big men who play in the post but once you get back to 20+ years ago and beyond it was much better then because most of the studs stayed in school.

I always hear this fitness/strength/speed stuff and it makes me chuckle. Sure, it's better now than 60 years ago but what exactly do you think changed now since the 90's/early 2000's?

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

Yeah, instruction, fitness, training methods all get worse over time.

Not that, all the best players take other routes nowadays.

Even looking at our own team, these guys aren’t as good from 10 years ago. Even if you remove 5* players we got from the equation.

Compare the top 5 players in cbb today to a year like 2012.

 

[pj]

I’m wondering about this too, but for a different reason. The way big east games are being officiated, it is like they are being played in the Thunderdome. Will that cost teams in the NCAA’s when all the hand checking in grabbing isn’t allowed?

But, UConn has the Kenpom #7 offense, Marquette the #3 offense, Xavier the #9 offense, Providence 18, Creighton 30, Villanova 42. What will the offenses do when they are no longer playing in the Thunderdome?

 

[Billy Jack]

While @AZHuskiePop gave lots of good, accurate info, there's one piece that may be missing. Teams aren't running ISO basketball anymore. The ball is simply shared more now in modern basketball. Usually, one guy really going off is a sign your offense is being shut down leading to poor shots on high volume by whatever player is best able to get them off. Case in point, Jalen Wilson at Kansas. In their 4 losses he has 26, 23, 30 and 38. He did put up 33 in a win, but that was against Southern Utah. He averages 19.9, and obviously averages less than that in games they win. When Bouknight put up 40 against Creighton, we lost.

You really don't want anybody accounting for that much of your scoring.

This ^^^

In addition, when playing in a league like the Big East, competition is much more balanced. It is harder to have big scoring outbursts against very good teams. In addition, each team has more depth of talent, so it’s unlikely that a single player is going to dominate the scoring.

 

[Billy Jack]

I don’t think the world is passing me by, but it definitely is passing by the Big East conference and has been for almost 20 years.

Nostalgia is a great thing, isn’t it?

In the last 20 years (2003-22) the Big East has produced the following national champions:

2003 - Syracuse
2004 - UConn
2011 - UConn
2013 - Louisville
2016 - Villanova
2018 - Villanova

The total number of BE teams in the Final Four in those 20 years was 11 in 19 tournaments. (2020 was canceled.)

In the prior 23 year history of the conference, the Big East produced 3 national champions and a total of 10 Final Four appearances.

Who is passing the Big East by in the last 20 years? Here is where the other 13 national champions have come from over the past 20 years:

6 - ACC
3 - SEC
3 - Big 12
1 - AAC
0 - Big Ten
0 - PAC XII

 

[CONN78SEJ]

Nostalgia is a great thing, isn’t it?

In the last 20 years (2003-22) the Big East has produced the following national champions:

2003 - Syracuse
2004 - UConn
2011 - UConn
2013 - Louisville
2016 - Villanova
2018 - Villanova

The total number of BE teams in the Final Four in those 20 years was 11 in 19 tournaments. (2020 was canceled.)

In the prior 23 year history of the conference, the Big East produced 3 national champions and a total of 10 Final Four appearances.

Who is passing the Big East by in the last 20 years? Here is where the other 13 national champions have come from over the past 20 years:

6 - ACC
3 - SEC
3 - Big 12
1 - AAC
0 - Big Ten
0 - PAC XII

You’re forgetting the title of the thread “Why are there no more dominant Big East scorers?”. It’s true too, the days of Caron Butler, Ray Allen, Carmelo Anthony, Patrick Ewing, Chris Mullin, Rip Hamilton, Dikembe Motumbo, Ed Pinckney, Troy Murphy, Ryan Gomes, Tim Thomas, Samuel Dalembert, Ron Artest, Rudy Gay, Hakim Warwick, Austin Croshere, Bill Wennington, and many many more are over. I’m sure I missed several pre-2005. All these guys were first round picks, and we haven’t seen the likes of them since. Times indeed are passing the Big East by. You bring up championships, and the point is a good one, with basketball being a team sport, but that’s not the point of this thread. My contention stands.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Nostalgia is a great thing, isn’t it?

In the last 20 years (2003-22) the Big East has produced the following national champions:

2003 - Syracuse
2004 - UConn
2011 - UConn
2013 - Louisville
2016 - Villanova
2018 - Villanova

The total number of BE teams in the Final Four in those 20 years was 11 in 19 tournaments. (2020 was canceled.)

In the prior 23 year history of the conference, the Big East produced 3 national champions and a total of 10 Final Four appearances.

Who is passing the Big East by in the last 20 years? Here is where the other 13 national champions have come from over the past 20 years:

6 - ACC
3 - SEC
3 - Big 12
1 - AAC
0 - Big Ten
0 - PAC XII

I think you need to scratch the one for 2013.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Like with Magic in his freshman and sophomore years at Michigan or Larry Bird at Indiana State? Or Maya Moore in her years at UConn?

Did you just compare Magic and Larry to......anyone?

 

[superjohn]

I don’t think the world is passing me by, but it definitely is passing by the Big East conference and has been for almost 20 years.

Big East programs have only won 4 out of the last 11 national championships and they only have 5 ranked teams in what was supposed to be a down season. You're right, everyone has clearly passed by the Big East.

 

[willie99]

that's absolutely why.

also 6 lottery picks over an 8 year period for an entire conference is pretty bad.

the real, actual conferences have multiple each season.

in disputing my obviously cherry picked numbers, you somehow made the little east look worse.

Try to imagine if you will, a Cincinnati Bearcats basketball fan trying to trash talk. What's next? Lions and Jets fans talking down to the Patriots or Chiefs?

You know you're pathetic when instead of talking about your accomplishments on the court, you talk about the conference you're joining. Just like BC and Cuse and Pitt and VA Tech and....... fans before him, all with zero titles since their moves, and programs in the dumps and declining. Whoop whoop whoop

The clown acts like he doesn't even know Big East members have six NCAAM titles in recent history. And 4 of the last 11. Ignorance truly is bliss

Thank you for your interest in UCONN basketball, but we don't care much about second tier programs like Cincinnati

 

[CONN78SEJ]

Big East programs have only won 4 out of the last 11 national championships and they only have 5 ranked teams in what was supposed to be a down season. You're right, everyone has clearly passed by the Big East.

Can you read??? The word Championships is no where in the thread title, this thread asks the question “Why are there no more dominant Big East scorers?”, and it’s true there are not any, anymore. Those days are gone and have been gone for several years now. It’s true too, the days of Caron Butler, Ray Allen, Carmelo Anthony, Patrick Ewing, Chris Mullin, Rip Hamilton, Dikembe Motumbo, Ed Pinckney, Troy Murphy, Ryan Gomes, Tim Thomas, Samuel Dalembert, Ron Artest, Rudy Gay, Hakim Warwick, Austin Croshere, Bill Wennington, Billy Owens and many many more are over. I’m sure I missed several pre-2005. All these guys were first round picks, and we haven’t seen the likes of them since. Times indeed are passing the Big East by. The original poster brings up championships, and the point is a good one, with basketball being a team sport, but that’s not the point of this thread. My contention stands. The Big East in terms of NBA caliber studs is far from what it used to be.

 

[temery]

Can you read??? The word Championships is no where in the thread title, this thread asks the question “Why are there no more dominant Big East scorers?”, and it’s true there are not any, anymore. Those days are gone and have been gone for several years now. It’s true too, the days of Caron Butler, Ray Allen, Carmelo Anthony, Patrick Ewing, Chris Mullin, Rip Hamilton, Dikembe Motumbo, Ed Pinckney, Troy Murphy, Ryan Gomes, Tim Thomas, Samuel Dalembert, Ron Artest, Rudy Gay, Hakim Warwick, Austin Croshere, Bill Wennington, Billy Owens and many many more are over. I’m sure I missed several pre-2005. All these guys were first round picks, and we haven’t seen the likes of them since. Times indeed are passing the Big East by. The original poster brings up championships, and the point is a good one, with basketball being a team sport, but that’s not the point of this thread. My contention stands. The Big East in terms of NBA caliber studs is far from what it used to be.

His point is it hasn't seemed to hurt the Big East much. He's right.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

His point is it hasn't seemed to hurt the Big East much. He's right.

If you read further into my reply, I say “it is a good point” that he made, given that basketball is and always has been a team sport. However the whole thread (and it’s title) was about the lack of dominant NBA big time scorers, like the ones I mentioned, not about Championships, and I don’t think the Big East will ever see the concentration of those NBA first rounders again. In that sense it is bothersome that the Big East does not have the annual collection of big time scorers as in years gone by. I’m right too.

 

[Billy Jack]

I think you need to scratch the one for 2013.

Why?

 

[Billy Jack]

You’re forgetting the title of the thread “Why are there no more dominant Big East scorers?”. It’s true too, the days of Caron Butler, Ray Allen, Carmelo Anthony, Patrick Ewing, Chris Mullin, Rip Hamilton, Dikembe Motumbo, Ed Pinckney, Troy Murphy, Ryan Gomes, Tim Thomas, Samuel Dalembert, Ron Artest, Rudy Gay, Hakim Warwick, Austin Croshere, Bill Wennington, and many many more are over. I’m sure I missed several pre-2005. All these guys were first round picks, and we haven’t seen the likes of them since. Times indeed are passing the Big East by. You bring up championships, and the point is a good one, with basketball being a team sport, but that’s not the point of this thread. My contention stands.

Nostalgia is a great thing, isn’t it?

Your point seems to be that there are no dominant scorers in the Big East any more - at least not like there used to be. And that this condition has existed for the last 20 years. Do I have that right?

You then produced a list of 18 players pre-2005 to illustrate your point and added that you could add many, many, many more. Again, do I have that right?

Here is your list with their career averages ppg and their best single season ppg. You didn’t list them in any particular order, so I’m listing them in alphabetical order. Here goes:

19.0, 23.4 - Ray Allen
22.2, 22.2 -Carmelo Anthony
13.1, 14.5 - Ron Artest
18.0, 20.9 - Caron Butler
12.6, 17.9 - Austin Croshere
7.1, 8.3 - Samuel Dalembert
15.3, 17.7 - Patrick Ewing
13.6, 15.2 - Rudy Gay
18.4, 21.6 - Ryan Gomes
19.8, 21.5 - Rip Hamilton’s
19.5, 22.9 - Chris Mullin
21.4, 22.7 - Troy Murphy
9.9, 15.2 - Dikembe Mutombo
17.9, 23.3 - Billy Owens
14.5, 15.6 - Ed Pinckney
16.9, 16.9 - Tim Thomas
15.4, 21.4 - Hakim Warrick
8.2, 12.5 - Bill Wennington

So, now I’ll present a list of high scoring players post-2005 with their career and single season scoring averages. I’ll add that I too can add many more. I must note at this point that post-2005 does not leave 20 years, which is the number of years with a dearth of dominant scorers which you mentioned earlier. Your with players up to 2005 represents 26 years of Big East history. Post-2005 leaves 18 years.

In a final note, let me call attention to the fact that this list includes the leading scorer in Bug East history, Markus Howard of Marquette. I’m also including the years of each player player’s career so it can be seen how these players are distributed over the past 18 years:

13.8, 21.1 - Ben Bentil (2014-16)
14.4, 24.6 - Marshon Brooks (2007-11)
14.4, 18.9 - Jalen Brunson (2015-18)
16.0, 19.8 - Julian Champagne (2019-22)
15.2, 21.8 - Bryce Cotton (2010-14)
17.8, 25.4 - Quincy Douby (2003-06)
19.2, 23.3 - Luke Harangidy (2006-10)
13.2, 18.7 - Josh Hart (2013-17)
15.3, 19.7 - LaDontae Henton (2011-15)
21.6, 27.8 - Markus Howard (2016-20)
18.9, 21.4 - Dominique Jones (2007-10)
21.7, 26.7 - Doug McDermott (2010-14)
10.9, 18.9 - Demetris Nichols (2003-07)
19.5, 21.6 - Shamorie Ponds (2016-19)
17.5, 23.1 - Myles Powell (2006-20)
13.4, 16.9 - Adama Sanogo (2020-23)
14.3, 18.7 - Russ Smith (2010-14)
16.1, 23.5 - Kamba Walker (2008-11)

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Why?

Think about it.

 

[Billy Jack]

Think about it.

I did. Did you?

Why won’t you answer the question directly?

 

[FfldCntyFan]

I did. Did you?

Why won’t you answer the question directly?

Show me a screenshot of the NCAA's record book for the championship in question.

 

[storrsroars]

Show me a screenshot of the NCAA's record book for the championship in question.

If we're going there, then let's never again mention losing to Mississippi St. in 1996, as the NCAA says that didn't happen either.

 

[August_West]

Do we think that the talent in college basketball is how it was 10 or so years ago? Interested in the takes here.

Talent yes. Experience no.

Lets take Hawkins for example. He's gone after this year. If he came back for his Junior year like Ray Allen and Rip did, I think he would have a great shot at a eclipsing Rays 23.4 average or rips 21.5 as Juniors.

It's not just talent that makes a scorer in college, it is also learning the game and the system you are playing in. Real players who can score are gone before they can make the mark in college.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

Talent yes. Experience no.

Lets take Hawkins for example. He's gone after this year. If he came back for his Junior year like Ray Allen and Rip did, I think he would have a great shot at a eclipsing Rays 23.4 average or rips 21.5 as Juniors.

It's not just talent that makes a scorer in college, it is also learning the game and the system you are playing in. Real players who can score are gone before they can make the mark in college.

Yeah 90s basketball was different. NBA teams valued experience a lot and weren’t as patient with young guys before the creation of the G League. You HAD to be ready.

How about when comparing him to a guy like Jeremy Lamb though?

I think the removal of the one and done rule changed a lot in college hoops and kind of made it fun for a good decade before these different routes came around.

Maybe I don’t watch other college hoops teams enough, but the stars don’t seem the same as they used to when we’d see a John Wall, Derrick Rose, Jimmer, or even a Thabeet be a household names or just straight up exciting players to watch.

 

[MU in MKE]

There are 26 players averaging over 20 PPG this year. 3 of those players are from the B10 and 1 is from UNC. All the rest are mid/low major players. is that what we want? To have high scorers like the mid majors? I can tell you why they usually have the highest scorers in the NCAA... lack of good defenses. You have your occasional star like Edey, but by and large it's a mark of a lower level program.

 

[Umami Zen]

Very few talented scorers/shooters are staying in school for three or four years anymore.. NBA scouts know that the BE is a rugged/tough/physical conference (esp. on D).. If you have a frosh/soph that can thrive in that environment.. Like Hawk/Bhop.. You go follow the money and develop with your NBA team's resources.

Free agency in the portal era just adds to this dynamic if you can hit it out of park on your new team in your first year.. Exposure and gone..

 

[CheshireCat]

I think your post shows that there are still dominant scorers, just not this year. Unless I misread that.

But my thoughts for this year is that the Big East has a bunch of teams that are really balanced offensively, and the really bad teams (Butler, Georgetown, St. John’s, DePaul) aren’t deep enough to let their “star” shine, so the good teams they play can consistently lock down their best players.

UConn is the only team in the top half of the conference that has less than 4 guys averaging double digits (Creighton and Xavier have 5, PC and Marquette have 4). Tough to have a 20+ PPG guy with that many mouths to feed.

IMO, that’s a good thing for the Big East, not a bad thing…

Very true of Primo Spears. He’s the best pure scorer in the league.