Why are there no more dominant big east scorers?

[Blue Blood]

Currently Adama leads all big east scorers at 16.8 a game tied with Hopkins this include non conference games. In the last 20 years the top scorer has been below 19 twice and never below 18. Often times there a multiple players in the 20s. Do we think this is just an odd year or is this indicative of a pattern with NIL, new transfer rules, etc?

 

[Palatine]

Let me think about that for a second.

 

[Letsgohuskies11]

Currently Adama leads all big east scorers at 16.8 a game tied with Hopkins this include non conference games. In the last 20 years the top scorer has been below 19 twice and never below 18. Often times there a multiple players in the 20s. Do we think this is just an odd year or is this indicative of a pattern with NIL, new transfer rules, etc?

I guess it will be interesting to tournament time how the BE does. I'd say we have a lot of very good, complete teams that aren't heavily reliant on one person to score.

 

[DW1361]

Might I also add that the BE is tough defensively and it is harder for one player to go off regularly. Case in point was how hard Hawkins had to work to get the ball never mind find space to get a good look. His work effort was tremendous last night. He earned every shot and drained 50%.

 

[UCFan1513]

Because the refs let players get mauled. Hawkins would score 25+ per game if he didn’t get held every time he tried to take a step

 

[CONN78SEJ]

Currently Adama leads all big east scorers at 16.8 a game tied with Hopkins this include non conference games. In the last 20 years the top scorer has been below 19 twice and never below 18. Often times there a multiple players in the 20s. Do we think this is just an odd year or is this indicative of a pattern with NIL, new transfer rules, etc?

I’m answering your thread title “Why are there no more dominant Big East scorers”?
……….and the reason is there are no more dominant Big East coaches. Plain and simple. No more Rollie, Jim Calhoun, Rick Pitino, big John Thompson, Rick Barnes, Nose Picker before his nose picker years, Carnasecca, PJ Carlisemo, George Blaney and Raff. Imagine three Big East teams at the Final Four like in 1985.

 

[storrsroars]

I wonder what numbers Moore would've put up if not for his injury. Easy 25 last game vs X.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

There are a couple of factors
We have had a number of great scorers since JC era in our history looking back reveals the fact
Great kids not staying long enough is a possible reason it normally takes a third or 4th season
Chris Smith didn’t average over 20 until his senior year
Donyell was a Junior
Ray was a Sophomore and Junior
Rip was a Junior
Kemba was a Junior
Those guys were all clear 1st option guys
The other fact is teams with multiple scoring options
like 2000-2010 , 2014 It more difficult , Guys like Ben , Caron , and Bazz were in that category .
The Big East is no tougher today than in those eras .
the leagues been brutal since the 1980’s

 

[caw]

I think the increase in three point shooting has made scoring a bit more balanced as well.

This year in particular (and perhaps one of the reasons there are so many good but not great teams around the country) is the fact there are a ton of older players who are fifth year or sixth year players. They may not be Uber-talented but they increase the overall depth around the country considerably. Not to mention all the transfers.

 

[freshler40]

I think the increase in three point shooting has made scoring a bit more balanced as well.

This year in particular (and perhaps one of the reasons there are so many good but not great teams around the country) is the fact there are a ton of older players who are fifth year or sixth year players. They may not be Uber-talented but they increase the overall depth around the country considerably. Not to mention all the transfers.

It seems like BE teams run the 30 second clock more, look for specific plays. More plays are called from the bench. It may reduce the number of shots per game. The one/two and done players and alternative opportunities for the top players also cuts down on such players staying longer to develop their high scoring games.

 

[fatlucy]

I’m answering your thread title “Why are there no more dominant Big East scorers”?
……….and the reason is there are no more dominant Big East coaches. Plain and simple. No more Rollie, Jim Calhoun, Rick Pitino, big John Thompson, Rick Barnes, Nose Picker before his nose picker years, Carnasecca, PJ Carlisemo, George Blaney and Raff. Imagine three Big East teams at the Final Four like in 1985.

Change your name to “Stuck in the Past”. The world is passing you byeeee.

 

[boiwerebad]

The difference between #1 and #16 scorer is 2.3 points. BE games are usually more defensively focused and slower paced, so harder to see guys put up big numbers. Wild to think how close everyone is bunched together, but for someone to average 22+, their team would have to be horrid (Javon Freeman-Liberty last year averaged just under 22) or they would have to be a high 5 star about to be a top pick

 

[HuskyHawk]

While @AZHuskiePop gave lots of good, accurate info, there's one piece that may be missing. Teams aren't running ISO basketball anymore. The ball is simply shared more now in modern basketball. Usually, one guy really going off is a sign your offense is being shut down leading to poor shots on high volume by whatever player is best able to get them off. Case in point, Jalen Wilson at Kansas. In their 4 losses he has 26, 23, 30 and 38. He did put up 33 in a win, but that was against Southern Utah. He averages 19.9, and obviously averages less than that in games they win. When Bouknight put up 40 against Creighton, we lost.

You really don't want anybody accounting for that much of your scoring.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

While @AZHuskiePop gave lots of good, accurate info, there's one piece that may be missing. Teams aren't running ISO basketball anymore. The ball is simply shared more now in modern basketball. Usually, one guy really going off is a sign your offense is being shut down leading to poor shots on high volume by whatever player is best able to get them off. Case in point, Jalen Wilson at Kansas. In their 4 losses he has 26, 23, 30 and 38. He did put up 33 in a win, but that was against Southern Utah. He averages 19.9, and obviously averages less than that in games they win. When Bouknight put up 40 against Creighton, we lost.

You really don't want anybody accounting for that much of your scoring.

+1000

Concentrated scoring is a bad thing for a team. Basketball is pretty simple mathematically. A team wants to maximize the expected value of each of its possessions while minimizes the opponent's expected value of its possessions. There is a diminishing return in terms of probability of scoring for every additional shot the star takes, especially when opposing defenses are stacked to stop the star from scoring. The first three or four shots for a Diara or Alleyne are probably going to be higher expected value shot than the 15th shot for Sanogo.

 

[Chin Diesel]

There are a couple of factors
We have had a number of great scorers since JC era in our history looking back reveals the fact
Great kids not staying long enough is a possible reason it normally takes a third or 4th season
Chris Smith didn’t average over 20 until his senior year
Donyell was a Junior
Ray was a Sophomore and Junior
Rip was a Junior
Kemba was a Junior
Those guys were all clear 1st option guys
The other fact is teams with multiple scoring options
like 2000-2010 , 2014 It more difficult , Guys like Ben , Caron , and Bazz were in that category .
The Big East is no tougher today than in those eras .
the leagues been brutal since the 1980’s

I think the increase in three point shooting has made scoring a bit more balanced as well.

This year in particular (and perhaps one of the reasons there are so many good but not great teams around the country) is the fact there are a ton of older players who are fifth year or sixth year players. They may not be Uber-talented but they increase the overall depth around the country considerably. Not to mention all the transfers.

I tend to go towards the lack up upperclassmen for the reason in the BE.

It takes time to learn how to score at 20 points a clip. Hawkins didn't start finding his groove until 5-6 weeks ago. He lost time last year with injuries and even missed a few this year with protocol. Throw on a game where basically mailed it in with fouling and your mean average takes the hit.

Also, I'm in the distributed scoring camp where teams want 4-5 players who can score every game to make game planning more difficult.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

Currently Adama leads all big east scorers at 16.8 a game tied with Hopkins this include non conference games. In the last 20 years the top scorer has been below 19 twice and never below 18. Often times there a multiple players in the 20s. Do we think this is just an odd year or is this indicative of a pattern with NIL, new transfer rules, etc?

This season is a very special one in college basketball - the depth of talent in college has never been higher. Extra eligibility, NIL, transfer freedom etc. has worked in concert to pool a lot of talent.

One of the expected consequences of increasing the talent depth is the limiting of outliers, ie very dominant ppg stats.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

+1000

Concentrated scoring is a bad thing for a team. Basketball is pretty simple mathematically. A team wants to maximize the expected value of each of its possessions while minimizes the opponent's expected value of its possessions. There is a diminishing return in terms of probability of scoring for every additional shot the star takes, especially when opposing defenses are stacked to stop the star from scoring. The first three or four shots for a Diara or Alleyne are probably going to be higher expected value shot than the 15th shot for Sanogo.

Not if Sanogo realizes he’s a nano second away from a double team and kicks the ball back out for an open three.

 

[PNolanFan]

Several people on this thread mentioned the upperclassman thing. For instance if Justin Lewis was here as a junior I feel like he would have a good chance to score 20 a game, goes without saying but if Bouknight was here as a senior this year I am almost certain he would be in the mid 20s and next year if hawkins were to come back I think he could put up 20. Now with that said this has been the case for a while so I am thinking it is also just a weird year in the big east. There will be more 20 ppg scorers in future years just not as many as there were many years ago

 

[CONN78SEJ]

Change your name to “Stuck in the Past”. The world is passing you byeeee.

I don’t think the world is passing me by, but it definitely is passing by the Big East conference and has been for almost 20 years.

 

[superjohn]

While @AZHuskiePop gave lots of good, accurate info, there's one piece that may be missing. Teams aren't running ISO basketball anymore. The ball is simply shared more now in modern basketball. Usually, one guy really going off is a sign your offense is being shut down leading to poor shots on high volume by whatever player is best able to get them off. Case in point, Jalen Wilson at Kansas. In their 4 losses he has 26, 23, 30 and 38. He did put up 33 in a win, but that was against Southern Utah. He averages 19.9, and obviously averages less than that in games they win. When Bouknight put up 40 against Creighton, we lost.

You really don't want anybody accounting for that much of your scoring.

I hear you but I don't think Bouknight scoring 40 in a loss is a good example. That was Cole's 4th career game at UConn and he wasn't ready yet, he shot 2-13 and missed the ft's to ice the win. Tyrese also was awful and had only 2 points. We needed the 40 from Bouk and it took a major fluke for it not to be a win.

 

[McLovin]

I think your post shows that there are still dominant scorers, just not this year. Unless I misread that.

But my thoughts for this year is that the Big East has a bunch of teams that are really balanced offensively, and the really bad teams (Butler, Georgetown, St. John’s, DePaul) aren’t deep enough to let their “star” shine, so the good teams they play can consistently lock down their best players.

UConn is the only team in the top half of the conference that has less than 4 guys averaging double digits (Creighton and Xavier have 5, PC and Marquette have 4). Tough to have a 20+ PPG guy with that many mouths to feed.

IMO, that’s a good thing for the Big East, not a bad thing…

 

[CL82]

I guess it will be interesting to tournament time how the BE does. I'd say we have a lot of very good, complete teams that aren't heavily reliant on one person to score.

I’m wondering about this too, but for a different reason. The way big east games are being officiated, it is like they are being played in the Thunderdome. Will that cost teams in the NCAA’s when all the hand checking in grabbing isn’t allowed?

 

[Letsgohuskies11]

I’m wondering about this too, but for a different reason. The way big east games are being officiated, it is like they are being played in the Thunderdome. Will that cost teams in the NCAA’s when all the hand checking in grabbing isn’t allowed?

The team that I'd think would be in the biggest trouble on a neutral court would be Providence.

 

[Deleted at users request]

Do we think that the talent in college basketball is how it was 10 or so years ago? Interested in the takes here.

 

[gsmooth]

The difference between #1 and #16 scorer is 2.3 points. BE games are usually more defensively focused and slower paced, so harder to see guys put up big numbers. Wild to think how close everyone is bunched together, but for someone to average 22+, their team would have to be horrid (Javon Freeman-Liberty last year averaged just under 22) or they would have to be a high 5 star about to be a top pick

I noticed that part when looking at the link at the bottom. I would assume it would make picking All BE Teams more difficult, well at least using traditional stats it would. I wonder if the people picking All BE Teams use more advanced metrics, but I doubt it. Julian Champagnie was All BE 1st team last year and frankly I don't think he was all that great. Julian was inefficient and it looked like the burden of expectation weighed on him like an elephant.

Big East Conference Stats - RealGM

Find a complete listing of all the Big East Conference basketball teams, on RealGM.com

basketball.realgm.com

 

[auror]

Combination of a lot of things. Balanced 3-point open shooters as mentioned above I think is a factor.

And frankly the conference is lacking in players with high-end self creation this season. It's why there are very few NBA prospects in the league. The conference was not recruiting all that well a few years ago and so we're in an individual talent upperclassmen dearth. A lot of the best players from teams other than us in the conference are transfers (Kolek, Hopkins, Boum, Scheierman, Nunge, Soriano, Carter, Croswell, Daniels, Bates, etc. etc.). But you don't tend to transfer if you're a high quality self-creator, unless you're up-transferring. And generally those guys were at that level they were for a reason, and though they might be really good players, it's tough to up-transfer and then dominate with a high usage rate.

 

[MJ1]

Compared to other leagues, seems to be a trend. ACC leader Appleby-Wake 18.5, B12 Wilson 19.9, SEC B. Miller-Alabama 19.5 only the B10 has multiple 20 ppg scores.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I hear you but I don't think Bouknight scoring 40 in a loss is a good example. That was Cole's 4th career game at UConn and he wasn't ready yet, he shot 2-13 and missed the ft's to ice the win. Tyrese also was awful and had only 2 points. We needed the 40 from Bouk and it took a major fluke for it not to be a win.

Yeah, but that's kind of the point. When one guy is taking that many shots it's because the offense isn't working. When the offense isn't working, you don't often win. Wilson was shooting so often in the KS Ls in part because Harris was doing absolutely nothing. I'm not saying the guy taking the shots is the cause of the issues, he's a symptom. It's usually going to be the one guy that can attempt to carry a dysfunctional offense, like Bouk did.

Sometimes it's the only way to win. Like Tedy whatever at NM State last year. If he doesn't have an insane game there is no way his team beats UConn.

 

[UCLJ0211]

Splitting hairs but in conference games the numbers are a little higher. Hopkins at 18.1 and Hawkins is actually 2nd at 17.6.

 

[Iluvsuebird]

Currently Adama leads all big east scorers at 16.8 a game tied with Hopkins this include non conference games. In the last 20 years the top scorer has been below 19 twice and never below 18. Often times there a multiple players in the 20s. Do we think this is just an odd year or is this indicative of a pattern with NIL, new transfer rules, etc?

Hawkins 20+ points a game if he returns next year. Easy. Sanogo scores 20+ plus this year if the BE wasn't a nightly Royal Rumble.