We can not close the deal with recruits

[Waquoit]

Increasingly bizarre boneyard.
I can't even fathom some of the things that are said.

From you, that's an ROTFLOL

 

[HuskyHawk]

Our coach needs to change his sales pitch because he is not looked at or admired as a father figure or a holy religious man he attempted to sell.

He needs to be more serious, and pragmatic in his approach and start having in home visits with recruits parents that he really wants on the team.

He needs to be relaxed in conversations with.parents meaning don't use Olliesms ever. Tell parents what they want to hear by listening what they're asking for and then being genuine in meeting their needs.

Last but not least win big and send Jalen to the NBA via lottery. That helps too.

How, about, instead of changing the sales pitch, he decides to become what he's selling? Novel idea, I know. But he was, not so long ago.

 

[Huskybass]

What lots of us want is a return to being relevant. When you are relevant you have a chance of doing great things.

 

[upstater]

"The kids seem to love KO & the program."

How can anyone say that with a straight face considering the recent mass defections?

He's likely talking about this year's team. And he's not the only one who said that.

 

[Stinger92860]

It's not the sales pitch that needs to change.

What does need changing, because whatever they are doing is not getting it done.

 

[temery]

What does need changing, because whatever they are doing is not getting it done.

Well, I probably would change the things that aren't getting the job done.

 

[Waquoit]

He's likely talking about this year's team. And he's not the only one who said that.

So we're excluding the kids that don't like him? Makes sense.

 

[CL82]

Notre Dame? Try Kansas. Championships are mostly luck. What you want is consistent excellence. To be relevant every year.

Notre Dame has only made 12 appearances since 1990. Only one in the whole decade of the 90s. UConn has made 20.

If championships were mostly luck wouldn't they be distributed randomly?

 

[HuskyHawk]

If championships were mostly luck wouldn't they be distributed randomly?

I didn't say final fours were luck. But once you get to that final 4, there is luck involved in who ends up taking home the title. Matchups, injuries, guys having an off night, or a great one. The best team doesn't always win (some obvious examples exist, NC State, Nova 85, Arizona, KU in 88). Sometimes it does.

That said I did some checking. One of the more astounding things is grouping champions by state. The list below is from the start of the 64 team field in 1985. You can go all the way back to 1967 and only add two new geographies, DC for Georgetown 84 and WI for Marquette in 77. The vast majority of the runner's up come from these same states. Men's Basketball DI

North Carolina (8)
Kentucky (5)
Connecticut (4)
Michigan (2)
Pennsylvania (2)
Kansas (2)
Florida (2)
Arkansas (1)
Arizona (1)
Nevada (1)
Indiana (1)
California (1)
New York (1)

 

[CL82]

I didn't say final fours were luck. But once you get to that final 4, there is luck involved in who ends up taking home the title. Matchups, injuries, guys having an off night, or a great one. The best team doesn't always win (some obvious examples exist, NC State, Nova 85, Arizona, KU in 88). Sometimes it does.

That said I did some checking. One of the more astounding things is grouping champions by state. The list below is from the start of the 64 team field in 1985. You can go all the way back to 1967 and only add two new geographies, DC for Georgetown 84 and WI for Marquette in 77. The vast majority of the runner's up come from these same states. Men's Basketball DI

North Carolina (8)
Kentucky (5)
Connecticut (4)
Michigan (2)
Pennsylvania (2)
Kansas (2)
Florida (2)
Arkansas (1)
Arizona (1)
Nevada (1)
Indiana (1)
California (1)
New York (1)

Yeah, HH what you said was

Championships are mostly luck.

I disagree. Some teams, such as Connecticut have shown a proven ability to win. It seems to be a talent that is distinct from winning percentage.

Now your last post post walks that back saying essentially that among final four teams championships are mostly luck. UConn's 80% winning percentage in FF games would seem to contradict that as well.

I don't think much (any?) meaningful information can be garnered from winning states since 1985. To many other mitigating factors such as population, or number of quality BB programs per state to make that a meaningful metric. JMHO

 

[HuskyHawk]

Yeah, HH what you said was

I disagree. Some teams, such as Connecticut have shown a proven ability to win. It seems to be a talent that is distinct from winning percentage.

Now your last post post walks that back saying essentially that among final four teams championships are mostly luck. UConn 80% winning percentage in FF would seem to contradict that as well.

I don't much (any?) meaningful information can be garnered from winning states since 1985. To many other mitigating factors such as population, or number of quality BB programs per state to make that a meaningful metric. JMHO

I was wrong. I retract the "mostly" and would say "partly". It was an off the cuff remark that was ill considered.

 

[intlzncster]

Don't be such a tool. I am one of their fans. Of course they want to win championships. They're spoiled, because they've won their league like 12 years in a row and have the longest streak of getting into the tournament in history.

Question for a KU fan: Would you trade that 12 years for 2 NCs, 1 conference title, and missing the tournament 5 times or so?

Not proving a point, just genuinely curious. If it was me, I'd take my scenario 100 times out of 100. Like it or not, Natty Cs trump everything.

 

[Zissou]

UConn is on a tough run. KO deserves more time, imo, to dig himself out. On top of everything else, UConn has had a run of injuries that is unusual.

What is KO selling, and what is he selling against?

UConn is one of the great programs of the modern era. KO has won a national championship. He is very capable.

He has to sell a rebuild, one based mostly on injuries and needing more depth.

He is up against:
- The injuries. That should be an anomaly in the rear view mirror.
- The defections. There are just more transfers in today's game. When times get tough there are more. He needs to build on character team players. Solid 3 stars.
- The conference. There is not much KO can do except emphasize other positives. All the AAC talk is football and the P6, which is pretty much a joke outside of the AAC. Rutgers gets to talk building the brand in the B1G. CM at St John's sells the surging Big East, national coverage for every game, Madison Square Garden and the BET, and a Top 3 rated conference.

KO has a much more challenging recruiting environment than JC had when JC built the program into a powerhouse within the glory days of the oBE.

The AAC is mediocre, so a positive is that a modest rebuild can have success against an AAC schedule.

If not KO, who?

KO has a good chance to turn it around and rebuild. He needs a few good breaks and some depth of solid 3 star recruits. He probably won't land a Cam Reddish in this environment (but he should try) but that can come later with more modest rebuilding expectations for now. Chill is not a magic bullet, KO is still on the line to reload.

 

[JeepCSC]

Question for a KU fan: Would you trade that 12 years for 2 NCs, 1 conference title, and missing the tournament 5 times or so?

Not proving a point, just genuinely curious. If it was me, I'd take my scenario 100 times out of 100. Like it or not, Natty Cs trump everything.

Florida has more titles this century than Kansas or Kentucky. No one considers Florida in a better position to win titles going forward. You want to win titles. But maybe even moreso, you want to be in the position to win titles as much as possible going forward. Excitement for a program is built up over years, not a single March. Or even back-to-back March's as the case may be.

 

[upstater]

So we're excluding the kids that don't like him? Makes sense.

Why must you always be the worst poster around?

If the current kids ON THE TEAM really love Ollie, that's a good thing. And it is a pertinent piece of information in all this. And it's meaningful.

 

[intlzncster]

Florida has more titles this century than Kansas or Kentucky. No one considers Florida in a better position to win titles going forward. You want to win titles. But maybe even moreso, you want to be in the position to win titles as much as possible going forward. Excitement for a program is built up over years, not a single March. Or even back-to-back March's as the case may be.

Who cares what other people consider going forward?
I mean, recruits will go anywhere with enough incentive (eg LSU; WKU).

Banked Titles are more important. Again, I'd rather have FL's titles. But FL isn't a GREAT example, cause they just hit with one set of guys, rather than repeated NC success over time.

As we like to say: 4 > 1

 

[upstater]

Florida has more titles this century than Kansas or Kentucky. No one considers Florida in a better position to win titles going forward. You want to win titles. But maybe even moreso, you want to be in the position to win titles as much as possible going forward. Excitement for a program is built up over years, not a single March. Or even back-to-back March's as the case may be.

I'm with the people that want to win national championships over kissing my sister--and I don't even have a sister.

 

[Zissou]

25 Top Colleges That Dominate Academically And Athletically

25 Top Colleges That Dominate Academically And Athletically
22. University of Connecticut

 

[The Funster]

That's funny, I don't see people pining for a middle ground between the two here. I see them pining for Final 4s and championships and NBA lottery picks. People are complaining about how few to none of the players on the upcoming roster would've made the cut when Calhoun was coaching. The whole place was in a state of shock when a 5 star recruit picked Kentucky over us last year. Nah, I feel pretty confident in saying it's "good old days" or bust for at least 50% of the site.

I'd love the middle ground if the middle ground is top 3-4 in the AAC with a ticket to the Dance just about every year. We all talk about how bad the AAC is and yet this school hasn't ever dominated it in the regular season. We can't have another magical run if we don't get invited to the Dance.

 

[Zissou]

I'd love the middle ground if the middle ground is top 3-4 in the AAC with a ticket to the Dance just about every year. We all talk about how bad the AAC is and yet this school hasn't ever dominated it in the regular season. We can't have another magical run if we don't get invited to the Dance.

Stop the bleeding. Top 4 of the AAC with NCAA invites has to be the short-term step in the rebuilding. Then some higher level recruits.

 

[Tenspro2002]

Question for a KU fan: Would you trade that 12 years for 2 NCs, 1 conference title, and missing the tournament 5 times or so?

Not proving a point, just genuinely curious. If it was me, I'd take my scenario 100 times out of 100. Like it or not, Natty Cs trump everything.

Counter question: would you rather be in Kansas's position right now, or ours? These are basically two separate questions, one forward-looking, one backwards-looking.

I think in a vacuum, people would prefer our last 20 years, or even last 10 years, to that of Kansas.

But it's undeniable that Kansas's run of sustained greatness and relevance, even short of championships, has put them in a much better position going forward than our recent track record of generally mediocre (and nationally irrelevant) regular seasons and flashes of occasional brilliance in March.

 

[The Funster]

Counter question: would you rather be in Kansas's position right now, or ours? These are basically two separate questions, one forward-looking, one backwards-looking.

I think in a vacuum, people would prefer our last 20 years, or even last 10 years, to that of Kansas.

But it's undeniable that Kansas's run of sustained greatness and relevance, even short of championships, has put them in a much better position going forward than our recent track record of generally mediocre (and nationally irrelevant) regular seasons and flashes of occasional brilliance in March.

If I can jump in...

It doesn't have to be either or. The reality is the better your regular season, the better seed you get, the better chance you have to make a deep run. Based on some of the awful losses it can be said that Self isn't a very good tournament coach, so he han't always been able to maximize his seeding advantage, Ollie has shown he's a good tournament coach but he has to learn how to build a program that can get it's ticket punched on a regular basis and get that ticket with a high seed to help him make that run. It starts with dominating this weak conference that we are in. Statistically the odds are heavily against any team that makes the Dance irregularly, has a low seed and then expects to go all the way.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Question for a KU fan: Would you trade that 12 years for 2 NCs, 1 conference title, and missing the tournament 5 times or so?

Not proving a point, just genuinely curious. If it was me, I'd take my scenario 100 times out of 100. Like it or not, Natty Cs trump everything.

Here is their last 12 years.
1 2016-17 Big 12 31 5 .861 23.53 12.23 83.2 71.9 3 1 3 Lost Regional Final Bill Self (31-5)
2 2015-16 Big 12 33 5 .868 23.87 11.22 81.3 67.6 4 1 1 Lost Regional Final Bill Self (33-5)
3 2014-15 Big 12 27 9 .750 18.47 12.13 71.1 64.8 5 5 10 Lost Third Round Bill Self (27-9)
4 2013-14 Big 12 25 10 .714 20.25 11.40 79.0 70.1 5 2 10 Lost Third Round Bill Self (25-10)
5 2012-13 Big 12 31 6 .838 20.79 7.54 75.2 61.9 7 2 3 Lost Regional Semifinal Bill Self (31-6)
6 2011-12 Big 12 32 7 .821 21.72 9.93 73.5 61.7 13 3 6 Lost National Final Bill Self (32-7)
7 2010-11 Big 12 35 3 .921 24.10 7.62 81.2 64.7 7 1 2 Lost Regional Final Bill Self (35-3)
8 2009-10 Big 12 33 3 .917 24.68 8.25 81.6 64.2 1 1 1 Lost Second Round Bill Self (33-3)
9 2008-09 Big 12 27 8 .771 18.02 7.90 76.4 65.4 24 9 14 Lost Regional Semifinal Bill Self (27-8)
10 2007-08 Big 12 37 3 .925 26.90 8.20 80.5 61.5 4 2 4 Won National Final Bill Self (37-3)
11 2006-07 Big 12 33 5 .868 22.62 6.86 78.4 61.7 3 2 2 Lost Regional Final Bill Self (33-5)
12 2005-06 Big 12 25 8 .758 20.02 7.60 75.2 61.3 12 12 Lost First Round Bill Self (25-8)

Here is ours.
1 2016-17 AAC 16 17 .485 7.23 6.61 67.3 66.3 18 18 Kevin Ollie (16-17)
2 2015-16 AAC 25 11 .694 15.89 6.28 73.1 63.5 20 18 Lost Second Round Kevin Ollie (25-11)
3 2014-15 AAC 20 15 .571 8.28 4.22 64.1 60.0 17 17 Kevin Ollie (20-15)
4 2013-14 AAC 32 8 .800 17.23 8.63 71.8 63.2 18 9 18 Won National Final Kevin Ollie (32-8)
5 2012-13 Big East 20 10 .667 11.88 7.42 69.9 65.4 21 Kevin Ollie (20-10)
6 2011-12 Big East 20 14 .588 12.27 8.07 68.7 64.5 4 4 Lost Second Round Jim Calhoun (20-14)
7 2010-11 Big East 32 9 .780 17.95 10.44 72.4 64.9 4 9 Won National Final Jim Calhoun (32-9)
8 2009-10 Big East 18 16 .529 12.50 9.15 70.0 66.6 12 10 Jim Calhoun (18-16)
9 2008-09 Big East 31 5 .861 22.17 8.57 78.3 64.3 2 1 5 Lost National Semifinal Jim Calhoun (31-5)
10 2007-08 Big East 24 9 .727 15.54 6.76 77.5 68.7 13 16 Lost First Round Jim Calhoun (24-9)
11 2006-07 Big East 17 14 .548 13.22 6.09 70.4 62.5 18 12 Jim Calhoun (17-14)
12 2005-06 Big East 30 4 .882 21.22 6.57 81.8 67.1 3 1 2 Lost Regional Final Jim Calhoun (30-4)

So UConn has 2 NCs, and KU 1. KU has a loss in a final though. UConn missed the tournament 5 times. KU never did.
UConn lost in the Elite 8 once, to George Mason. Lost in the final four once. KU lost four times in the elite 8, and twice in the sweet 16. So in 12 years, they failed to get to a sweet 16 only 4 times. More sweet 16 appearances than UConn had NCAA tournament appearances. Half of those 12 years they made an elite 8 or further.

I'd take their last 12 over ours without a second thought. There is nothing I hate as much as having an NCAA tournament being played without UConn in it.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

Here is their last 12 years.
1 2016-17 Big 12 31 5 .861 23.53 12.23 83.2 71.9 3 1 3 Lost Regional Final Bill Self (31-5)
2 2015-16 Big 12 33 5 .868 23.87 11.22 81.3 67.6 4 1 1 Lost Regional Final Bill Self (33-5)
3 2014-15 Big 12 27 9 .750 18.47 12.13 71.1 64.8 5 5 10 Lost Third Round Bill Self (27-9)
4 2013-14 Big 12 25 10 .714 20.25 11.40 79.0 70.1 5 2 10 Lost Third Round Bill Self (25-10)
5 2012-13 Big 12 31 6 .838 20.79 7.54 75.2 61.9 7 2 3 Lost Regional Semifinal Bill Self (31-6)
6 2011-12 Big 12 32 7 .821 21.72 9.93 73.5 61.7 13 3 6 Lost National Final Bill Self (32-7)
7 2010-11 Big 12 35 3 .921 24.10 7.62 81.2 64.7 7 1 2 Lost Regional Final Bill Self (35-3)
8 2009-10 Big 12 33 3 .917 24.68 8.25 81.6 64.2 1 1 1 Lost Second Round Bill Self (33-3)
9 2008-09 Big 12 27 8 .771 18.02 7.90 76.4 65.4 24 9 14 Lost Regional Semifinal Bill Self (27-8)
10 2007-08 Big 12 37 3 .925 26.90 8.20 80.5 61.5 4 2 4 Won National Final Bill Self (37-3)
11 2006-07 Big 12 33 5 .868 22.62 6.86 78.4 61.7 3 2 2 Lost Regional Final Bill Self (33-5)
12 2005-06 Big 12 25 8 .758 20.02 7.60 75.2 61.3 12 12 Lost First Round Bill Self (25-8)

Here is ours.
1 2016-17 AAC 16 17 .485 7.23 6.61 67.3 66.3 18 18 Kevin Ollie (16-17)
2 2015-16 AAC 25 11 .694 15.89 6.28 73.1 63.5 20 18 Lost Second Round Kevin Ollie (25-11)
3 2014-15 AAC 20 15 .571 8.28 4.22 64.1 60.0 17 17 Kevin Ollie (20-15)
4 2013-14 AAC 32 8 .800 17.23 8.63 71.8 63.2 18 9 18 Won National Final Kevin Ollie (32-8)
5 2012-13 Big East 20 10 .667 11.88 7.42 69.9 65.4 21 Kevin Ollie (20-10)
6 2011-12 Big East 20 14 .588 12.27 8.07 68.7 64.5 4 4 Lost Second Round Jim Calhoun (20-14)
7 2010-11 Big East 32 9 .780 17.95 10.44 72.4 64.9 4 9 Won National Final Jim Calhoun (32-9)
8 2009-10 Big East 18 16 .529 12.50 9.15 70.0 66.6 12 10 Jim Calhoun (18-16)
9 2008-09 Big East 31 5 .861 22.17 8.57 78.3 64.3 2 1 5 Lost National Semifinal Jim Calhoun (31-5)
10 2007-08 Big East 24 9 .727 15.54 6.76 77.5 68.7 13 16 Lost First Round Jim Calhoun (24-9)
11 2006-07 Big East 17 14 .548 13.22 6.09 70.4 62.5 18 12 Jim Calhoun (17-14)
12 2005-06 Big East 30 4 .882 21.22 6.57 81.8 67.1 3 1 2 Lost Regional Final Jim Calhoun (30-4)

So UConn has 2 NCs, and KU 1. KU has a loss in a final though. UConn missed the tournament 5 times. KU never did.
UConn lost in the Elite 8 once, to George Mason. Lost in the final four once. KU lost four times in the elite 8, and twice in the sweet 16. So in 12 years, they failed to get to a sweet 16 only 4 times. More sweet 16 appearances than UConn had NCAA tournament appearances. Half of those 12 years they made an elite 8 or further.

I'd take their last 12 over ours without a second thought. There is nothing I hate as much as having an NCAA tournament being played without UConn in it.

This where you lose me. I'm taking a National Title over everything.

As far as who is better set up going forward and who based on their recent performance is a better bet to repeat in the future is a different question.

I just can't fathom as a fan not taking an advantage in titles, let alone a final 4 and elite thrown in there. Over simply making the tournament more consistently.

 

[HuskyHawk]

This where you lose me. I'm taking a National Title over everything.

As far as who is better set up going forward and who based on their recent performance is a better bet to repeat in the future is a different question.

I just can't fathom as a fan not taking an advantage in titles, let alone a final 4 and elite thrown in there. Over simply making the tournament more consistently.

And I can't imagine a fan taking a title, a single game (which in the case of Butler, was boring as hell), over the joy and tension and excitement of playing vastly more tournament games, instead of sitting on your butt, feeling left out. It's not like KU didn't get a title, they did. And a runner up. Plus 6 trips to the elite 8, and two more that ended in the sweet 16. It's not even close for me.