OT: Visiting Campus

[HuskyHawk]

If she's not going to get into the elites, the name of the game should be finding the cheapest place where she's comfortable. Once you get past those top 10-15 schools, you're really just buying a commodity.

Within reason, I agree. I think there's an order of magnitude difference between a "good" school like Holy Cross or maybe a notch better like UConn or PC and say Framingham State (our closest Mass analogue to CCSU). I'd also say there are way more than 10-15 elite schools. The Ivies, Stanford, Duke, Vandy, Rice, Northwestern, Duke, Emory, Tulane, Washington U, plus almost every school in the NESCAC would be pretty elite. Parents weren't bribing people to get their kids into Southern Cal instead of San Diego State because there was no difference in perception from employers or grad schools.

 

[superjohn]

Within reason, I agree. I think there's an order of magnitude difference between a "good" school like Holy Cross or maybe a notch better like UConn or PC and say Framingham State (our closest Mass analogue to CCSU). I'd also say there are way more than 10-15 elite schools. The Ivies, Stanford, Duke, Vandy, Rice, Northwestern, Duke, Emory, Tulane, Washington U, plus almost every school in the NESCAC would be pretty elite. Parents weren't bribing people to get their kids into Southern Cal instead of San Diego State because there was no difference in perception from employers or grad schools.

Parents were bribing people to get their kids into USC because they were using their kids as status symbols, it wasn't about future employers.

 

[BackAftaThis]

My dad had pneumonia during my student tour of of UConn in the pouring rain. Still loved it and was a no brainer to go.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Parents were bribing people to get their kids into USC because they were using their kids as status symbols, it wasn't about future employers.

Undoubtedly both were in play in those cases. I do tend to think "where you go to college" is vastly overrated. But there's no doubt that it matters early in your career, especially for liberal arts majors. On the other hand, going to the school of education anywhere but the cheapest place makes no sense.

 

[TRest]

Undoubtedly both were in play in those cases. I do tend to think "where you go to college" is vastly overrated. But there's no doubt that it matters early in your career, especially for liberal arts majors. On the other hand, going to the school of education anywhere but the cheapest place makes no sense.

Yeah, Quinnipiac is basically fleecing the future teachers and nurses of America. It has a couple of decent programs, but the cost/benefit of a QU degree (and many other private schools) is absurd.

 

[8893]

If she's not going to get into the elites, the name of the game should be finding the cheapest place where she's comfortable. Once you get past those top 10-15 schools, you're really just buying a commodity.

Within reason, I agree. I think there's an order of magnitude difference between a "good" school like Holy Cross or maybe a notch better like UConn or PC and say Framingham State (our closest Mass analogue to CCSU). I'd also say there are way more than 10-15 elite schools. The Ivies, Stanford, Duke, Vandy, Rice, Northwestern, Duke, Emory, Tulane, Washington U, plus almost every school in the NESCAC would be pretty elite. Parents weren't bribing people to get their kids into Southern Cal instead of San Diego State because there was no difference in perception from employers or grad schools.

I think all three of us are relatively close in age and experience, except this is @HuskyHawk 's first time going through this. IMO the truth is somewhere in between these two, but a lot closer to @Excalibur 's view.

HH your daughter is likely going to change her mind so many times between now and next year that, unless she's really unusually focused and single-minded, it's almost useless to do anything beyond exposing her to the range of choices at this point. I'm not talking minor changes; I mean complete 180s. And the more invested you get in any direction, the less likely she is to follow it.

Two other quibbles:

In what universe are you ranking UConn and PC above Holy Cross? Between this and your post yesterday about expecting a major discount from them, I think you are grossly misinformed about that school and its reputation and selectivity.

ETA: Tulane is also not nearly as competitive as the other schools with which you have grouped it; they will also usually give a nice merit aid package to attract good students from outside the region.

This may be related, but I also think you are underestimating the value of a quality Liberal Arts education--especially in this day and age. I know that STEM has been the trend and focus of the standardized testing and other metrics by which people and institutions are being scored, but a lot of what I have seen is a focus on that to the exclusion of a lot of other areas that I believe are essential to problem solving and employment opportunities on a long-term basis. I subscribe to the notion that a proper Liberal Arts education is more likely to result in a recession-proof skill set. To that point, the kids I know who have graduated Holy Cross in recent years are on Wall Street, employed by major banks or top corporations. Oh, and my cousin who graduated CCSU in the mid-80s retired last year with more money than I will ever earn even if I work twenty more years.

 

[8893]

Yeah, Quinnipiac is basically fleecing the future teachers and nurses of America. It has a couple of decent programs, but the cost/benefit of a QU degree (and many other private schools) is absurd.

QU also gives a ton of money to attract good students. I know many graduates and have employed several. Top of the class from there is almost always worth a look.

 

[Excalibur]

I think all three of us are relatively close in age and experience, except this is @HuskyHawk 's first time going through this. IMO the truth is somewhere in between these two, but a lot closer to @Excalibur 's view.

Based on an earlier post it looks like you are both older than I am by about 10 years. I speak from the experience of managing hiring for an entire organization. Not once has anyone ever commented on where an applicant's degree is from, and that ranges from entry level to executives up to and including CEOs. Does it matter for big investment banks and big 3 consulting firms? Probably. Maybe a bit in the very top law firms as well. But again, that is limited to the truly "elite" schools.

 

[8893]

Based on an earlier post it looks like you are both older than I am by about 10 years.

Hey, I said "relatively," whippersnapper!

Ok, so you're wise for your years.

Oh, and don't blink. Those ten years go by fast.

 

[Excalibur]

QU also gives a ton of money to attract good students. I know many graduates and have employed several. Top of the class from there is almost always worth a look.

The top of the class from most places is worth a look, is it not?

 

[8893]

The top of the class from most places is worth a look, is it not?

Always. It's one of my Yogi-esque sayings: top of the class is top of the class.

The reason I qualified it is because sometimes (increasingly it seems), even the top of the class from there and elsewhere are terrible candidates once you see them.

Ok, maybe I am getting old.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I think all three of us are relatively close in age and experience, except this is @HuskyHawk 's first time going through this. IMO the truth is somewhere in between these two, but a lot closer to @Excalibur 's view.

HH your daughter is likely going to change her mind so many times between now and next year that, unless she's really unusually focused and single-minded, it's almost useless to do anything beyond exposing her to the range of choices at this point. I'm not talking minor changes; I mean complete 180s. And the more invested you get in any direction, the less likely she is to follow it.

Two other quibbles:

In what universe are you ranking UConn and PC above Holy Cross? Between this and your post yesterday about expecting a major discount from them, I think you are grossly misinformed about that school and its reputation and selectivity.

ETA: Tulane is also not nearly as competitive as the other schools with which you have grouped it; they will also usually give a nice merit aid package to attract good students from outside the region.

This may be related, but I also think you are underestimating the value of a quality Liberal Arts education--especially in this day and age. I know that STEM has been the trend and focus of the standardized testing and other metrics by which people and institutions are being scored, but a lot of what I have seen is a focus on that to the exclusion of a lot of other areas that I believe are essential to problem solving and employment opportunities on a long-term basis. I subscribe to the notion that a proper Liberal Arts education is more likely to result in a recession-proof skill set. To that point, the kids I know who have graduated Holy Cross in recent years are on Wall Street, employed by major banks or top corporations. Oh, and my cousin who graduated CCSU in the mid-80s retired last year with more money than I will ever earn even if I work twenty more years.

Yeah, she's a junior. This is all exploratory to narrow down the general types of schools (size, location, focus) for the deeper dive next year. So I understand all of that. She has economics right now in HS and it's her favorite class she has ever had (which surprised me). But things may change.

I better not share that Tulane info with my wife, she'll have us on the next flight to NOLA. Maybe that's not a bad idea. Frenchman street is calling. Looking online, it's seems about BC level selectively wise. But for New England kids, maybe easier.

As for Holy Cross, it's more selective than I knew. The SAT range is not much different than UConn's although the acceptance rate is lower. It's still less selective than BC, BU and Northeastern based on what I see online.

I fully appreciate that you can succeed coming from anywhere if you are (a) driven and/or (b) lucky. I don't trust that she's that driven. I mostly fall into category (b).

My view on STEM or Business vs Liberal Arts is informed by my time in corporate America (now working at one of the larger companies in the world). The willingness to hire those people into many of the more focused roles and train them up is way down from what it was. Wall Street is a bit of an exception and has long plucked high ceiling kids and trained them. Certainly a liberal arts major with good grades at a good school can be in ok shape in many professions. And it remains a good platform for those getting MBAs or JDs. Some majors are an utter waste of time and money though. I also think that most schools have plenty of liberal arts in the overall curriculum even for STEM and Business majors (maybe not engineers, but she won't be that). UConn certainly did.

 

[8893]

Yeah, she's a junior. This is all exploratory to narrow down the general types of schools (size, location, focus) for the deeper dive next year. So I understand all of that. She has economics right now in HS and it's her favorite class she has ever had (which surprised me). But things may change.

I better not share that Tulane info with my wife, she'll have us on the next flight to NOLA. Maybe that's not a bad idea. Frenchman street is calling. Looking online, it's seems about BC level selectively wise. But for New England kids, maybe easier.

As for Holy Cross, it's more selective than I knew. The SAT range is not much different than UConn's although the acceptance rate is lower. It's still less selective than BC, BU and Northeastern based on what I see online.

I fully appreciate that you can succeed coming from anywhere if you are (a) driven and/or (b) lucky. I don't trust that she's that driven. I mostly fall into category (b).

My view on STEM or Business vs Liberal Arts is informed by my time in corporate America (now working at one of the larger companies in the world). The willingness to hire those people into many of the more focused roles and train them up is way down from what it was. Wall Street is a bit of an exception and has long plucked high ceiling kids and trained them. Certainly a liberal arts major with good grades at a good school can be in ok shape in many professions. And it remains a good platform for those getting MBAs or JDs. Some majors are an utter waste of time and money though. I also think that most schools have plenty of liberal arts in the overall curriculum even for STEM and Business majors (maybe not engineers, but she won't be that). UConn certainly did.

All good thoughts.

One final note before I head home to hand out candy: IIRC Economics is a very strong major at Holy Cross, and their alumni take care of each other. Everyone I know--young and old, male and female--who has graduated there has done very well.

 

[HuskyHawk]

All good thoughts.

One final note before I head home to hand out candy: IIRC Economics is a very strong major at Holy Cross, and their alumni take care of each other. Everyone I know--young and old, male and female--who has graduated there has done very well.

She's a legacy on her Mom's side of the family for HC. I think she'd like it and she did like the visit a lot. Probably just behind Tufts (which is a major reach). People crap on Worcester but that campus is gorgeous and Worcester is much better than a lot of small cities. The new AAA WooSox stadium is being built right now.

Enjoy the trick or treaters, I've been home all day

 

[HooperScooper]

In what universe are you ranking UConn and PC above Holy Cross? Between this and your post yesterday about expecting a major discount from them, I think you are grossly misinformed about that school and its reputation and selectivity.

ETA: Tulane is also not nearly as competitive as the other schools with which you have grouped it; they will also usually give a nice merit aid package to attract good students from outside the region.

This may be related, but I also think you are underestimating the value of a quality Liberal Arts education--especially in this day and age. I know that STEM has been the trend and focus of the standardized testing and other metrics by which people and institutions are being scored, but a lot of what I have seen is a focus on that to the exclusion of a lot of other areas that I believe are essential to problem solving and employment opportunities on a long-term basis. I subscribe to the notion that a proper Liberal Arts education is more likely to result in a recession-proof skill set. To that point, the kids I know who have graduated Holy Cross in recent years are on Wall Street, employed by major banks or top corporations. Oh, and my cousin who graduated CCSU in the mid-80s retired last year with more money than I will ever earn even if I work twenty more years.

As someone who's been through this twice and has a son at a NESCAC school I agree 100% with everything you wrote.

We did a lot of research and talked to many people in different fields of work and we came to the conclusion that a great liberal arts education was the best investment. It's too much to explain here.

EDIT: As I thought more about this, a liberal arts education might not fit everyone. It was better for my kids, but that doesn't mean it's best for everyone. There are over 4000 4 year colleges, so nothing is for everyone.

 

[tiger8mush]

I'd also say there are way more than 10-15 elite schools. The Ivies, Stanford, Duke, Vandy, Rice, Northwestern, Duke, Emory, Tulane, Washington U, plus almost every school in the NESCAC would be pretty elite.

Sorry for the dislike, but you mentioned Duke as an elite school. Not once, but TWICE!!!

 

[Pudge]

She's not a sports fan. My fondest recollection of UConn was that sense of community. For a bigger school, you really did see a lot of the same people every day and it felt smaller than it is. Small dorm dining hall experience helped there and that is gone now (and what replaced it is much more convenient). Plus we're all somewhat isolated in Storrs, so half the students aren't out exploring Boston or whatever.

I think I'd have hated BU. Too much like school as your job.

in 4 years at UCONN, I don’t think my daughter went to more than 2 Football games, zero Men’s BB, 5 Women’s BB ... a lot of soccer here FR year & then none.

Girlfriends & lots of trips to NYC

 

[bendm]

if you don't major in a STEM subject then you better plan on going to grad school in order to keep up with the rampant degree inflation. i was a social sciences double major at a nescac school and still didnt graduate with any real world skills, whatsoever. after a couple years of working in a cubicle i settled on going back to law school

 

[FatHank]

Bidwell for wings after the visit.

 

[Excalibur]

after a couple years of working in a cubicle i settled on going back to law school

Speaking of bad life choices . . .

 

[Excalibur]

Always. It's one of my Yogi-esque sayings: top of the class is top of the class.

The reason I qualified it is because sometimes (increasingly it seems), even the top of the class from there and elsewhere are terrible candidates once you see them.

Ok, maybe I am getting old.

Yeah "worth a look" means worth an interview, at least as it pertains to entry-level people. The interview culls the herd pretty quickly at that level.

 

[8893]

EDIT: As I thought more about this, a liberal arts education might not fit everyone. It was better for my kids, but that doesn't mean it's best for everyone. There are over 4000 4 year colleges, so nothing is for everyone.

I'm glad you added this. As I thought about it some more last night, I agree. There are a lot of great and interesting specialties in IT, healthcare, the sciences and elsewhere, and we have tried to encourage each of our daughters in those directions from early on. The one who is in college now actually tested very highly for speech pathology on an extensive vocational survey and her school has an excellent undergraduate and graduate program in it, so I was pushing it; but she has no interest in actually doing that.

 

[CL82]

The one who is in college now actually tested very highly for speech pathology on an extensive vocational survey and her school has an excellent undergraduate and graduate program in it, so I was pushing it; but she has no interest in actually doing that.

Funny how often it works out like that isn't it?

 

[HuskyHawk]

I'm glad you added this. As I thought about it some more last night, I agree. There are a lot of great and interesting specialties in IT, healthcare, the sciences and elsewhere, and we have tried to encourage each of our daughters in those directions from early on. The one who is in college now actually tested very highly for speech pathology on an extensive vocational survey and her school has an excellent undergraduate and graduate program in it, so I was pushing it; but she has no interest in actually doing that.

It's a very fair point. When college was mostly a place wealthy kids went to become well rounded (not that long ago really) it's clear why liberal arts became dominant. There is still value in that, but so many modern careers expect quasi-vocational training coming out of college.

I'm expecting that my daughter will be sensible and try to find something that naturally leads to a job she might want to do. At UConn maybe that's marketing or some kind of data science. At Holy Cross maybe econ. At Tufts, international business with a minor in French (they have a campus in an old French monastery).

When I looked at the New England tuition break listing for Massachusetts, Cognitive Science looked interesting to me. AI and Machine learning are big and getting much, much bigger. This looked like an ideal major for that.

 

[8893]

It's a very fair point. When college was mostly a place wealthy kids went to become well rounded (not that long ago really) it's clear why liberal arts became dominant. There is still value in that, but so many modern careers expect quasi-vocational training coming out of college.

I'm expecting that my daughter will be sensible and try to find something that naturally leads to a job she might want to do. At UConn maybe that's marketing or some kind of data science. At Holy Cross maybe econ. At Tufts, international business with a minor in French (they have a campus in an old French monastery).

When I looked at the New England tuition break listing for Massachusetts, Cognitive Science looked interesting to me. AI and Machine learning are big and getting much, much bigger. This looked like an ideal major for that.

I made a big push to try to get each of them interested in coding from a very young age. No luck.

It was interesting to see the different approaches of many of the schools. Some really emphasize "experiential learning" or an "upside down curriculum" where they are very big on having internships right out the gates, and not very big on lectures, texts or really any liberal arts core aside from some lip service by way of a summary course that is essentially Cliff Notes for the Humanities. I know some kids for whom that was a really good match, and it has appeared to work out well for them so far. I just didn't like it or get it; it didn't make sense to me to pay $40k to $60k a year to have my kid working an internship instead of attending classes. Seems to me that you can do that without going to school at all (and thereby saving the tuition).

 

[HuskyHawk]

I made a big push to try to get each of them interested in coding from a very young age. No luck.

It was interesting to see the different approaches of many of the schools. Some really emphasize "experiential learning" or an "upside down curriculum" where they are very big on having internships right out the gates, and not very big on lectures, texts or really any liberal arts core aside from some lip service by way of a summary course that is essentially Cliff Notes for the Humanities. I know some kids for whom that was a really good match, and it has appeared to work out well for them so far. I just didn't like it or get it; it didn't make sense to me to pay $40k to $60k a year to have my kid working an internship instead of attending classes. Seems to me that you can do that without going to school at all (and thereby saving the tuition).

I don't think those internships are readily available otherwise. Maybe I'm jaded. I remember maybe 5-10% of what I learned in college. Sad as it is, learning to be independent and responsible is the biggest thing I think any modern kid takes away from college. That and a variety of soft skills, mostly related to reading and writing capably and thinking analytically. I got way more of that in law school than college. The odds that college education is actually worth that $40-60k except in terms of perception by the world at large is zero. I really wish we had better options besides college for more kids, especially young women who are less likely to go into the trades.

But either way, the approach they take is definitely something for us to think about. I could see that being a huge mistake if you weren't aware or it or expecting it.

 

[8893]

I don't think those internships are readily available otherwise. Maybe I'm jaded. I remember maybe 5-10% of what I learned in college. Sad as it is, learning to be independent and responsible is the biggest thing I think any modern kid takes away from college. That and a variety of soft skills, mostly related to reading and writing capably and thinking analytically. I got way more of that in law school than college. The odds that college education is actually worth that $40-60k except in terms of perception by the world at large is zero. I really wish we had better options besides college for more kids, especially young women who are less likely to go into the trades.

But either way, the approach they take is definitely something for us to think about. I could see that being a huge mistake if you weren't aware or it or expecting it.

I think a big part of the problem is that the high schools to which most of us send our kids, even the public ones, do not encourage, counsel or even provide any information whatsoever about options other than college, except for maybe the armed services.

As but one example, AmeriCorps has a ton of great programs, including City Year, where kids 18-24 get paid a stipend to work for 11 months in schools in areas of need throughout the country. When they complete the program they get money towards college, and many schools match it or provide even more in the way of special discounts or scholarships for AmeriCorps (and specifically City Year) alumni. You may know of it because it's a program that actually started in Boston in the 90s, but now it is nationwide. Our high school guidance office had zero information about it; we learned about it by researching it ourselves and we have had literally dozens of parents tell us since that they wished they had known about it because they didn't think going straight to college was the best plan for their kids, but they weren't aware of other options.

 

[alexd]

Good luck with that. They are less likely to offer merit aid than BC.

But if she doesn't mind Worcester, Clark University is a very interesting, pretty unique school that offers a ton of merit aid. It's one of the schools featured in Colleges that Change Lives; iirc @alexd. 's daughter goes (or went?) there.

Your biggest obstacle will be that she will likely get her heart set on the same school that literally thousands of girls just like her have their hearts set on, and your biggest challenge will be trying to avoid or at least mitigate that.

Yes.... my youngest is finishing a five year accelerated bachelors/masters program at Clark. She'll have her Finance masters in may and has a job lined up at Aetna after interning there last summer. Clark has been great. Small. Student oriented. Lots of community outreach. @8893 is right about the merit aid. She's gotten to know her professors and is a TA for a few of them during her final year of masters work.

 

[8893]

Yes.... my youngest is finishing a five year accelerated bachelors/masters program at Clark. She'll have her Finance masters in may and has a job lined up at Aetna after interning there last summer. Clark has been great. Small. Student oriented. Lots of community outreach. @8893 is right about the merit aid. She's gotten to know her professors and is a TA for a few of them during her final year of masters work.

Congrats. That’s really great. Well done.

 

[alexd]

Congrats. That’s really great. Well done.

She fell far from my academic tree, thank God.