Val Ackerman on the future of college athletics & conference realignment

[UConnDan97]

I highly doubt that Duke or their fans would feel like they're losing out by playing Wake as opposed to the others you listed. Duke has a long history of competition with Wake. Pitt and Stanford? Not so much. I suspect that most Duke Fans would probably not give a rip if they ever played Pitt or Stanford again.

I'm not talking about feelings. I'm talking about money...

 

[UConnDan97]

I hear you, but Villanova does not play FBS football. That's why, for the purposes of a media rights contract, Wake Forest has more value than Villanova.

But for the purposes of this discussion, we're talking about a "mixed" division. So a part of the division would play football and the other part wouldn't. The only way that works is if you concentrate the football teams that draw the most eyeballs and have them all play each other. The additional basketball teams would give additional value from an 18 or 20 game schedule.

Bottom line... this is all fantasy and it doesn't work. And eventually, UConn needs to leave to a better conference...

 

[UConnDan97]

I’m not mixing things up. Temple being kicked wasn’t realignment. That was non performance and the other schools tired of subsidizing poor AD management.
Realignment is schools/conferences working with media partners to maximize value. When a school or two leave a conference, they are the perceived value. The schools left behind are left out.

If the ACC and Big East were to agree on some type of merger, it would be with a new media deal, a new conference, and new members. At the least, it would be ACC swallowing BE. The likelihood of all 11 BE schools being invited to that deal would be small. I wouldn’t equate that to what Temple went through.

What you are describing is not cherry picking. It's dissolving 2 conferences to make a 3rd. And doing so would require the individual members of each conference to all vote on their own dissolution. If a sizeable amount of teams are left out, then what is their incentive to vote against their own interests??

They wouldn't...

 

[nelsonmuntz]

They would cherry pick. They did cherry pick. And they’re done with it.

It’s a fever dream to actually think the ACC would merge with the Big East. They can’t even hold a conference tournament with all of the schools now but they’re going to add 11 more? Just hold a five round conference tournament in small city, North Carolina? lol

Some people here are just wishcasting so hard.

They wouldn’t merge to hold a nice conference tournament, so that doesn’t matter, and cherry picking wouldn’t accomplish anything. The ACC and/or Big 12 have to make a big move, or they concede to the P2.

 

[Ldandy]

I'm not talking about feelings. I'm talking about money...

What money is there in Stanford Football? The market? Nobody in the Bay Area cares about Stanford Football. If they did their ACC Deal wouldn’t be for pennies on the dollar. If we switch to streaming it is even less attractive. Next to nobody is going to pay for the opportunity to watch Duke play Stanford. A fair number of fans from both Duke/Wake would seek this game out in football and basketball.

 

[Fishy]

They wouldn’t merge to hold a nice conference tournament, so that doesn’t matter, and cherry picking wouldn’t accomplish anything. The ACC and/or Big 12 have to make a big move, or they concede to the P2

If they wanted to do something "big", the ACC and B12 could merge. Not sure that would work but it would make more sense than anything involving the Big East.

 

[CL82]

But for the purposes of this discussion, we're talking about a "mixed" division. So a part of the division would play football and the other part wouldn't. The only way that works is if you concentrate the football teams that draw the most eyeballs and have them all play each other. The additional basketball teams would give additional value from an 18 or 20 game schedule.

Bottom line... this is all fantasy and it doesn't work. And eventually, UConn needs to leave to a better conference...

I'm not sure I agree with that premise, but assuming it's correct then if you're replacing Wake, you would replace them with another football score not a basketball school. The inescapable fact is that football schools have more value than basketball schools. You and I may not like that fact, but that doesn't make it any less true.

 

[UConnDan97]

What money is there in Stanford Football? The market? Nobody in the Bay Area cares about Stanford Football. If they did their ACC Deal wouldn’t be for pennies on the dollar. If we switch to streaming it is even less attractive. Next to nobody is going to pay for the opportunity to watch Duke play Stanford. A fair number of fans from both Duke/Wake would seek this game out in football and basketball.

If you think nobody in the bay area cares about Stanford, then you're really going to love how many eyeballs Wake Forest commands...

 

[UConnDan97]

I'm not sure I agree with that premise, but assuming it's correct then if you're replacing Wake, you would replace them with another football score not a basketball school. The inescapable fact is that football schools have more value than basketball schools. You and I may not like that fact, but that doesn't make it any less true.

We both agree on the fact that football schools typically have more value. This exercise (an exercise in futility, by the way) is merely one that asks how a Big East - ACC merger could maximize value if one were to happen (which it won't).

And the only way to do it is to jettison the super small market teams (like Butler) and/or the teams where the market is already covered (like Wake Forest, arguably only the 4th most popular school in NC, and Charlotte might be approaching them)...

 

[CL82]

We both agree on the fact that football schools typically have more value.

If by "typically" you mean, always, then we do agree.

There is a mistaken sense held exclusively by Big East school fans, and some on the board, that, while they acknowledge that football normally has more value than basketball, there is some exception for schools in the Big East, probably driven by the fond recollection of games played 30 years ago. It doesn't exist.

 

[UConnDan97]

If by "typically" you mean, always, then we do agree.

There is a mistaken sense held exclusively by Big East school fans, and some on the board, that, while they acknowledge that football normally has more value than basketball, there is some exception for schools in the Big East, probably driven by the fond recollection of games played 30 years ago. It doesn't exist.

Well, it's not always.

If you believe the numbers that Nova put out there (private, but reported somewhere in the 40 - 50 million in athletic department revenue), that would put them 15 million dollars more revenue than a school like Bowling Green... and that's while having an FCS squad instead of an FBS. So no, it's not always...

 

[CL82]

Well, it's not always.

If you believe the numbers that Nova put out there (private, but reported somewhere in the 40 - 50 million in athletic department revenue), that would put them 15 million dollars more revenue than a school like Bowling Green... and that's while having an FCS squad instead of an FBS. So no, it's not always...

Yeah, it's always. The proof is the fact that they are in the big east rather than in a conference (unless you believe that Villanova is refusing to except a P4 payout, or that the P4 is benignly, leaving the school that could have merely by the asking how did the goodness of its heart.)

Just FYI,

Keep in mind that that is just conferenced distributions and not other revenue, such as ticket sales, merchandise sales, contributions, etc.

 

[SU1968]

But you're mixing up 2 different things. There is the dismantling of a conference, which leads to cherry picking (eg, the PAC12 falling apart). And then there's a fully formed and viable conference kicking someone out. I don't think the latter has happened since the old Big East did it to Temple.

For an ACC - Big East merger to make sense, you would need to do the latter...

People forget that Temple was kicked out because it didn't meet NCAA's rolling requirement for 15,000 attendance. I'm not aware of any school being kicked out of any conference for performance.

 

[UConnDan97]

Yeah, it's always. The proof is the fact that they are in the big east rather than in a conference (unless you believe that Villanova is refusing to except a P4 payout, or that the P4 is benignly, leaving the school that could have merely by the asking how did the goodness of its heart.)

Just FYI,
View attachment 107355
Keep in mind that that is just conferenced distributions and not other revenue, such as ticket sales, merchandise sales, contributions, etc.

It's not always. I just showed you why. I showed you that an FCS "basketball school" from the Big East had 15 million more in revenue than a MAC school with an FBS football team. Even when you correct for the difference in tv contract, Villanova is earning more overall...

 

[CL82]

It's not always. I just showed you why. I showed you that an FCS "basketball school" from the Big East had 15 million more in revenue than a MAC school with an FBS football team. Even when you correct for the difference in tv contract, Villanova is earning more overall...

It is always. I just gave you two reasons why reasons why.

Our discussion has probably gone as far as it can. I think we both understand where the other is coming from. By the way, as always, I appreciate you as a poster here for many reasons, but not in the least that you can have a conversation without name-calling. It's good to talk to an adult. Catch you after the game.

 

[UConnDan97]

It is always. I just gave you two reasons why reasons why.

Our discussion has probably gone as far as it can. I think we both understand where the other is coming from. By the way, as always, I appreciate you as a poster here for many reasons, but not in the least that you can have a conversation without name-calling. It's good to talk to an adult. Catch you after the game.

Same here, my friend! Always appreciate you. As for the name calling...I save it for the 3 people who root for BC...

 

[Kolumbo]

Lol, no it's actually not like saying that at all. Broadcast partners are paying for content. One less football team means 6 less games to broadcast. "Cost" isn't the focal point to of the analysis, "revenue" is.

I think you are purposely being obtuse. The ACC has 18 football members so there is no shortage of content. In fact the conference would be better off kicking out Wake because Wake costs the same as Florida State to the ACC. You want Pitt to play Wake Forest which isn't exactly a barn-burner that the networks make money on.

Revenue to the ACC and is also a cost to the ACC. If you were to classify the ACC income statement by university, I'm quite sure Florida State would be very profitable while Wake Forest is a big loss. You make it sound like all football programs are worth the same but of course Wake football is much less valuable than the other football programs.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Same here, my friend! Always appreciate you. As for the name calling...I save it for the 3 people who root for BC...

I'll wager that there's only two, one uses two different handles.

 

[uconnyankee]

What you are describing is not cherry picking. It's dissolving 2 conferences to make a 3rd. And doing so would require the individual members of each conference to all vote on their own dissolution. If a sizeable amount of teams are left out, then what is their incentive to vote against their own interests??

They wouldn't...

It doesn’t really matter. If either Big 12 or ACC found value in raiding BE for BB it would have happened.

The ACC and Big East aren’t merging.

 

[uconnyankee]

People forget that Temple was kicked out because it didn't meet NCAA's rolling requirement for 15,000 attendance. I'm not aware of any school being kicked out of any conference for performance.

Didn’t realize it was enrollment. Thought it was poor performance and lack of competitiveness.

 

[Zissou]

Why is there all of this disdain for Wake?

 

[SU1968]

Didn’t realize it was enrollment. Thought it was poor performance and lack of competitiveness.

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. The 15,000 is for average attendance at football games over a three year period.

 

[Kolumbo]

People forget that Temple was kicked out because it didn't meet NCAA's rolling requirement for 15,000 attendance. I'm not aware of any school being kicked out of any conference for performance.

I believe the Big East members voted to kick Temple out because of performance and poor attendance. I don't think it had anything to do with the NCAA.

But you're mixing up 2 different things. There is the dismantling of a conference, which leads to cherry picking (eg, the PAC12 falling apart). And then there's a fully formed and viable conference kicking someone out. I don't think the latter has happened since the old Big East did it to Temple.

For an ACC - Big East merger to make sense, you would need to do the latter...

I don't think anyone would be kicked out of a conference. The Big East and ACC membership could both vote to dissolve their conferences with the understanding that they all form a brand new conference with new bylaws. Put in place specific performance related bonuses and penalties. They schedule a formal meeting and somehow forget to give butler and bcu the secret handshake. That combined conference would be far superior to the Big XII and better than the Big Ten and SEC in basketball.

 

[buddy]

I believe the Big East members voted to kick Temple out because of performance and poor attendance. I don't think it had anything to do with the NCAA.


I don't think anyone would be kicked out of a conference. The Big East and ACC membership could both vote to dissolve their conferences with the understanding that they all form a brand new conference with new bylaws. Put in place specific performance related bonuses and penalties. They schedule a formal meeting and somehow forget to give butler and bcu the secret handshake. That combined conference would be far superior to the Big XII and better than the Big Ten and SEC in basketball.

I think BC should be kicked out

 

[Fishy]

People forget that Temple was kicked out because it didn't meet NCAA's rolling requirement for 15,000 attendance. I'm not aware of any school being kicked out of any conference for performance.

The Big East gave Temple an ultimatum regarding attendance, scheduling, facilities, etc. Temple responded by making absolutely no changes and the Big East booted them. Effectively, though, they were booted for performance.

Why is there all of this disdain for Wake?

Why not?