USMNT Falling

[DarthGrumpy]

Food for thought...

The state of the USMNT

Two years since failing to qualify for the 2018 World Cup, six months from beginning the process for the next one, where does the USMNT stand?

www.espn.com

 

[businesslawyer]

It hasn't shown on the field yet, or even the roster, but you have to like the number of young players who are stepping up in Europe at the moment. Reyna contributing for Dortmund at his age is a huge deal. Robinson playing well enough that Milan wanted to sign him is a huge deal. Timmy Chandler having huge success at Frankfurt having been moved up to a wing is a huge deal. We need a striker to come forward, and Weah to get on the field and show he can play every day at that level, but the potential to field an 11 of players all able to play on at least Europa level teams is there.

Possible 4-2-3-1 team for this World Cup, almost all of whom will be better for the World Cup we host:

Steffen in net.
Brooks and Long at FB.
Yedlin, Dest and Robinson fighting for 2 wingback slots.
Adams and McKennie at holding mid, with Holmes backing them up.
Pulisic plus some combination of Weah, Chandler and Reyna behind the striker.
At the moment, Jozy or Sargent but desperately hoping someone makes a huge jump by then.

 

[ZooCougar]

Sargent needs to improve.

 

[businesslawyer]

I've said since I saw him star at one of the under-something world cups, I'm not totally sold. Loved his technical skills and understanding of his position, but worried that lack of speed will put a ceiling on his effectiveness.

 

[ZooCougar]

I've said since I saw him star at one of the under-something world cups, I'm not totally sold. Loved his technical skills and understanding of his position, but worried that lack of speed will put a ceiling on his effectiveness.

Without even going into Dempsey, Brian McBride was better than anyone we have now. So much better.

 

[LIuconn]

I don't think it will be Sargent as our guy up top. Not really sure if we have a true 9 in the pipeline

 

[Palatine]

Too early to tell where Sargent's ceiling is. But we have very few big, physical players who can hold position and even as a teenager he seems capable of that. That is the also the value of Josey. Unfortunately he gets hurt every five minutes.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Too early to tell where Sargent's ceiling is. But we have very few big, physical players who can hold position and even as a teenager he seems capable of that. That is the also the value of Josey. Unfortunately he gets hurt every five minutes.

True and with the speed that the US may have out on the wings with Pulisic, Adams, McKinnie, etc. they may not need speed at 9. He he can fill that McBride role, who was not fast either - the guile and strength to run at central defenders, hold the ball, and then distribute to the attacking edges. Add in the skill and height to make a good aerial game and a nose to poach ugly goals, it could work well for Sargent and USMNT. Of course, since he doesn't play for MLS, who knows what Berhalter will do.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

I can see potential legal merit with USSF arguing that USMNT players should make more money that USWNT players, and I mean no disrespect towards women, because that's the economics of the world soccer market today, for better or worse. But, USSF arguing that "...beyond physical differences, women's and men's players did not perform equal work because, in effect, women's soccer is easier than men's soccer," is complete trash legally as it's basically the definition of discrimination and a PR nightmare. Those USSF lawyers should be fired along with whoever agreed to using that argument. Of course, this is USSF that we are talking about.

USSF justifies unequal pay: USWNT's job easier

U.S. Soccer doubled down on its stance that players on the women's and men's national teams do not perform equal work, according to court filings.

www.espn.com

 

[Palatine]

I can see potential legal merit with USSF arguing that USMNT players should make more money that USWNT players, and I mean no disrespect towards women, because that's the economics of the world soccer market today, for better or worse. But, USSF arguing that "...beyond physical differences, women's and men's players did not perform equal work because, in effect, women's soccer is easier than men's soccer," is complete trash legally as it's basically the definition of discrimination and a PR nightmare. Those USSF lawyers should be fired along with whoever agreed to using that argument. Of course, this is USSF that we are talking about.

USSF justifies unequal pay: USWNT's job easier

U.S. Soccer doubled down on its stance that players on the women's and men's national teams do not perform equal work, according to court filings.

www.espn.com

Actually, the women are physically inferior, they are weaker, slower, can't jump as high or kick as far. They may perform as well in some finese aspects of the game and they have comparable conditioning. But they are indisputably athletically inferior. These are absolute facts that are objectively measurable. Even the worst member of the men's team would be a superstar if put into a women's game.

That said. You shouldn't say it because it is as the previous poster noted, it is a PR nightmare and green light for a workplace discrimination suit.

The point of all this is that all pay is not based on work output. Equal pay for equal work sounds reasonable. But equal pay for equal value is how television revenue is decided.

 

[crewbear742]

Since the issue is framed in terms of equal pay, the actual equation should be "Equal pay for equal value created." Women's Soccer doesn't come close to creating equal value. Women's Soccer simply isn't that popular. There is sort of a quasi "Labor Theory of Value" in play here. The idea is that peer teams playing at the same level by definition do the same work. No, they don't. It's a lot harder to win on the Men's side because of the interest in men's Soccer worldwide and the concomitant high level of competition.

This is much more an ideological case intended to prove that Women's Soccer is in fact a peer of Men's Soccer. It is in truth a denial of the market forces that constrain the growth of Women's professional sport. The USWNT is asking the court to assert that water flows uphill.

 

[meyers7]

Actually, the women are physically inferior, they are weaker, slower, can't jump as high or kick as far. They may perform as well in some finese aspects of the game and they have comparable conditioning. But they are indisputably athletically inferior. These are absolute facts that are objectively measurable. Even the worst member of the men's team would be a superstar if put into a women's game.

That said. You shouldn't say it because it is as the previous poster noted, it is a PR nightmare and green light for a workplace discrimination suit.

The point of all this is that all pay is not based on work output. Equal pay for equal work sounds reasonable. But equal pay for equal value is how television revenue is decided.

I was talking to my wife about this. I told her it's like when a woman asks, "do you think she's prettier than me?". Obviously she is (or the woman wouldn't be asking), BUT you don't say "yes". Stupid argument. Heads should roll for this. And Codeiro's did.

The arguments USSF should make should be directly about the money the women get and the money they bring in. The women aren't even equal among themselves. The salaries paid, by USSF, for their NWSL time is split into Tier 1 and Tier 2 ($67,500 and $62,500). So they discriminate amoungst themselves.

I've read Cindy Parlow is taking over Codeiro's spot. Maybe that will help smooth over things.

 

[Waquoit]

The arguments USSF should make should be directly about the money the women get and the money they bring in. The women aren't even equal among themselves. The salaries paid, by USSF, for their NWSL time is split into Tier 1 and Tier 2 ($67,500 and $62,500). So they discriminate amoungst themselves.

So even the women's pro salaries are subsidized by USSF? Am I reading that right?

 

[meyers7]

So even the women's pro salaries are subsidized by USSF? Am I reading that right?

As I've read it/understand it. Not all the NT players. There are 21 NT players that get their salary from USSF.

AND there are 17 NT players that are on contract with USSF. They get $100,000/yr whether they play for the US or not. So for instance, Alex Morgan (I assume is one of the contract players) is getting paid while she is out having her baby.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Actually, the women are physically inferior, they are weaker, slower, can't jump as high or kick as far. They may perform as well in some finese aspects of the game and they have comparable conditioning. But they are indisputably athletically inferior. These are absolute facts that are objectively measurable. Even the worst member of the men's team would be a superstar if put into a women's game.

That said. You shouldn't say it because it is as the previous poster noted, it is a PR nightmare and green light for a workplace discrimination suit.

The point of all this is that all pay is not based on work output. Equal pay for equal work sounds reasonable. But equal pay for equal value is how television revenue is decided.

Just to clarify as I also agree that it is a fact that the 'average' professional male soccer player playing the USMNT team is going to be taller, heavier, stronger, and fast than the 'average' female soccer play playing for the USWNT. That is a biological fact for better or worse. The part that I was ticked about USSF's basically implied that the USMNT players work harder than the USWNT players, which is subjective and complete trash both legally and from a PR perspective. Cordeiro taking the blame for 'not reading' the legal submissions feels like became the scapegoat for this entire mess. There is something is rotten within USSF leadership, which is not a surprise to most people.

PS - Back in the day, I was in good shape and played a lot of pick-up soccer games with friends, including quite a few from the UConn women's team. I was strong enough to muscle around the Tietjen twins, just had to stay close to negate their better footwork when I was covering one of them. Sara Whalen, though, was handful. If I tried to stay close as she was faster than me and had way better footwork, she would drop her shoulder and bulldog past me. Had absolutely no fear.

 

[Waquoit]

"Work as hard" was an incredible gaffe. And so was not paying them equal per diem. I don't believe the women here are making their case in good faith. But the stupidity of those is charge in mind-boggling.

 

[Waquoit]

Like for Sara Whalen story

 

[Palatine]

Just to clarify as I also agree that it is a fact that the 'average' professional male soccer player playing the USMNTS team is going to be taller, heavier, stronger, and fast than the 'average' female soccer play playing for the USWNT. That is a biological fact for better or worse. The part that I was ticked about USSF's basically implied that the USMNT players work harder than the USWNT players, which i subjective and complete trash both legally and from a PR perspective. Cordeiro taking the blame for 'not reading' the legal submissions feels like became the scapegoat for this entire mess. There is something is rotten within USSF leadership, which is not a surprise to most people.

PS - Back in the day, I was in good shape and played a lot of pick-up soccer games with friends, including quite a few from the UConn women's team. I was strong enough to muscle around the Tietjen twins, just had to stay close to negate their better footwork when I was covering one of them. Sara Whalen, though, was handful. If I tried to stay close as she was fater than me and have way better footwork, she would drop her shoulder and bulldog past me. Had absolutely no fear.

Work can be measured. How much weight do you lift. Lifting 100 pounds 10X is half the work of lifting 200 pounds 10X. Miles run. Balls kicked. Hours practicing. Etc. People may not agree on all the measurements or criteria but it could be done.

 

[Waquoit]

Work can be measured. How much weight do you lift. Lifting 100 pounds 10X is half the work of lifting 200 pounds 10X. Miles run. Balls kicked. Hours practicing. Etc. People may not agree on all the measurements or criteria but it could be done.

Do you think the women would lag behind?

 

[Ban]

Test

 

[ZooCougar]

The Federation Wow. Berhalter gone, Cordeiro gone. Let’s get rid of the other Berhalter now.

 

[ZooCougar]

Jermaine Jones and His American Life

Jermaine Jones broadcasts much of his life in unfiltered fashion, and it's all on the table in an unfiltered talk.

www.si.com

 

[businesslawyer]

Work can be measured. How much weight do you lift. Lifting 100 pounds 10X is half the work of lifting 200 pounds 10X. Miles run. Balls kicked. Hours practicing. Etc. People may not agree on all the measurements or criteria but it could be done.

So in a men's basketball game, two players who jump their hardest the same number of times, do everything else equally, your absolutely ludicrous theory is the one who can jump higher is working harder? Boy you're dumb.

 

[Palatine]

So in a men's basketball game, two players who jump their hardest the same number of times, do everything else equally, your absolutely ludicrous theory is the one who can jump higher is working harder? Boy you're dumb.

If they weigh the same, the one who is jumping higher is doing more work. Absolutely

 

[SubbaBub]

Has nothing to do with athletic prowess and everything to do with how much money the women's game makes vs the men's and how much the USSF spends on each.

If the revenue from the men's team is double the women's, should USSF spend the same on both?

I would hazard a guess the USWNT is the highest paid women's national team in the world and the USMNT isn't the highest paid men's national team. There are a lot of ways to slice and dice this for negotiation purposes.