USAB National Team Pool for 2018 World Cup [merged]

[hoophuskee]

I tend to believe anyone still holding onto Parker being on this team is either a non-UCONN fan that doesn't understand team sports, or it would pain me to say this-- a UCONN fan that doesn't understand what team basketball is. I'm not saying anyone in this thread fits the description. Because I get you can be angry about the past and that is the point.

But for those non-UCONN fans who think Parker should be selected on, these are probably the type of fans that look primarily at "talent" without a clear understanding of team concept probably because they've been "up-against-it" for so long. - - - And live by the words "if only our college team had more talent . . ."

And for any UCONN fan that thinks Parker should be selected without even trying out-- that would be mind-boggling. I hope none of my fellow UCONN fans would be that callous/naive to believe putting out a team - other than for an all-star game - is about "all talent" without having to go through tryouts and working on playing with new teammates. If any UCONN fan believes that and has had the pleasure of watching UCONN these many years and reading how Geno does things-- then they'll never understand the team concept. Because they can only view/appreciate the game as "individual talent," and not how a team works.

 

[willtalk]

I tend to believe anyone still holding onto Parker being on this team is either a non-UCONN fan that doesn't understand team sports, or it would pain me to say this-- a UCONN fan that doesn't understand what team basketball is. I'm not saying anyone in this thread fits the description. Because I get you can be angry about the past and that is the point.

But for those non-UCONN fans who think Parker should be selected on, these are probably the type of fans that look primarily at "talent" without a clear understanding of team concept probably because they've been "up-against-it" for so long. - - - And live by the words "if only our college team had more talent . . ."---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------. UCONN these many years and reading how Geno does things-- then they'll never understand the team concept. Because they can only view/appreciate the game as "individual talent," and not how a team works.

To many of us it is not just about Parker. Rather the lack of set standards for their selection process. It is when you operate under standards that you can be held accountable. Was not inviting Chelsea Gray using the rational that she had never been part of the National Program about a player who does not understand teamwork? This issue about promoting the necessity of going through the National system has surfaced before. It seemed to have been active in quite a few other sports. It reflects a group wanting to establish and maintain their power. Often via punitive exclusion. Many athletes in other sports have chosen to represent other countries because they had little opportunity through the National selection committees of their own sports. This is not about Parker or Chelsea Gray but about the proper exercise of power in positions of trust.

When taken as a whole and not focusing on their isolated rationals for why the chose people it seems they create criteria to justify their picks rather than picking based on a criteria. You give a rational for their potential issue with Parker, but that is all it is - a rational. It might fly in respect to teamwork, but it does not account for other selections. Can you honestly tell me with a straight face that there are not politics and agenda's involved with the selection process. It seems people do not want to see unless it is their Ox being gored.

I trust my instincts about such things because time has usually validated them. In the case of the National committee I smell agendas and politics at work.

 

[CocoHusky]

I tend to believe anyone still holding onto Parker being on this team is either a non-UCONN fan that doesn't understand team sports, or it would pain me to say this-- a UCONN fan that doesn't understand what team basketball is. I'm not saying anyone in this thread fits the description. Because I get you can be angry about the past and that is the point.

But for those non-UCONN fans who think Parker should be selected on, these are probably the type of fans that look primarily at "talent" without a clear understanding of team concept probably because they've been "up-against-it" for so long. - - - And live by the words "if only our college team had more talent . . ."
And for any UCONN fan that thinks Parker should be selected without even trying out-- that would be mind-boggling. I hope none of my fellow UCONN fans would be that callous/naive to believe putting out a team - other than for an all-star game - is about "all talent" without having to go through tryouts and working on playing with new teammates. If any UCONN fan believes that and has had the pleasure of watching UCONN these many years and reading how Geno does things-- then they'll never understand the team concept. Because they can only view/appreciate the game as "individual talent," and not how a team works.

This UCONN fan doesn't know what you are talking about because " talent" is the primary reason any player is selected for any national team. This UCONN fan believes Parker could have been included on 2016 but fully understands why she might have been excluded for Basketball Only reasons. This UCONN fan understands that it was Parker's decision not to be included in the selection process for 2018 National team. This UCONN fan knows that the way "Geno does things" at UCONN is not the way USA basketball does things. Do you?

 

[trb123]

I am a UConn fan. I kind of anticipated this grumbling. I am raising a few points. I do not have the answers.

1. Should National coaches be limited to 1 term? Geno and Coach K had long tenures.
2. In soccer many countries have a national coach. He is an experienced professional coach. Usually, he is promoted and no longer coaches a professional team. Can we have such a position in women's basketball?
3. USABL clearly wants team oriented basketball. How many college coaches have implemented it? How many have shown innovation and ability to move the game forward? If there is a dearth of good coaches, USABL will be disappointed.
4. In soccer, many nations put their teams thru a long training camp and the national coach/committee can make a good selection. We do not have that luxury. What can we do instead?

I believe it is essential to tackle these issues before the team selection can be addressed. Auriemma has his coaching duties. He does not have the time to coach team basketball. Neither do the WNBA players have time to learn it.

 

[trb123]

I think an NBA coach as the national coach would be best way to ensure a merit oriented basketball team.
WNBA coaches and college coaches will always be accused of favoritism.
USABL can pick those who favor team basketball.

More than one thread on this? Am I posting on the right one?

 

[mhshuskies]

11 of 12 players from the last Olympic team are in the pool (Catchings retired). They could easily add someone (N. Ogwumike?) to those 11 and call it a day. Here is the ages those players will be next September when the World Cup is played:

Stewart - 24
Griner - 27
Delle Donne - 29
Moore - 29
Charles - 29
McCoughtry - 32
Fowles - 32
Augustus - 34
Whalen - 36
Taurasi - 36
Bird - 37

Is this the tournament where USAB finally brings in youngsters or do they kick that can down the road to 2020? Realistically, I think they have to let some of the older players go. Unless Taurasi or Bird experience a major decline in performance, they are not leaving either of them out. I'd guess Whalen and Augustus are as good as gone. McCoughtry is a question mark but I think she's still very good.

Who gets in will be interesting. One thing I noticed:

Jewell Loyd PER 2016 - 18.1
Jewell Loyd PER 2017 - 19.1

Diana Taurasi PER 2016 - 18.3
Diana Taurasi PER 2017 - 19.0

Across the board, 2017 Loyd and 2017 Taurasi are *very* similar based on their WNBA statistics.

Are you chumming the waters for hostile debate by comparing Jewel to D? Jewel is a very good player, but you will never hear “we have Jewel and you don’t.”

 

[hussybulldog]

NBA coach can be biased as well, probably less so. However it is not the coach but the selection committee makes the final decision.

I think an NBA coach as the national coach would be best way to ensure a merit oriented basketball team.
WNBA coaches and college coaches will always be accused of favoritism.
USABL can pick those who favor team basketball.

More than one thread on this? Am I posting on the right one?

 

[eebmg]

Simplest solution is for UConn to declare themselves a new country

Sue, Tina, Azure, Collier, Stef, Tuck, Stewie, Mariah, KLS, DT, Maya, and Tiff (Geno as coach)

Would we take gold? While we may not have the talent advantage, could the continuity of playing in the UConn system (especially a suffocating brand of help defense)push us over the 'other' US team.

 

[Plebe]

Simplest solution is for UConn to declare themselves a new country

Sue, Tina, Azure, Collier, Stef, Tuck, Stewie, Mariah, KLS, DT, Maya, and Tiff (Geno as coach)

Would we take gold? While we may not have the talent advantage, could the continuity of playing in the UConn system (especially a suffocating brand of help defense)push us over the 'other' US team.

I disagree. Since the vast majority of the complaining is from the Lady Vol fans, I think they should be the ones to secede.

Their next Olympic team can consist of the six WNBA players who are former Vols: Burdick, Graves, Harrison, Johnson, Parker, Stricklen.

It would be fun to see how they'd do.

 

[eebmg]

I disagree. Since the vast majority of the complaining is from the Lady Vol fans, I think they should be the ones to secede.

Their next Olympic team can consist of the six WNBA players who are former Vols: Burdick, Graves, Harrison, Johnson, Parker, Stricklen.

It would be fun to see how they'd do.

I thought it would be a fun exercise to see if the UConn active player tree could realistically take on and beat (USA - UConn). No intent to really push us out of the US

TN will never have a critical mass of players that if they decide to leave in protest would be felt.

 

[EricSD]

I disagree. Since the vast majority of the complaining is from the Lady Vol fans, I think they should be the ones to secede.

Their next Olympic team can consist of the six WNBA players who are former Vols: Burdick, Graves, Harrison, Johnson, Parker, Stricklen.

It would be fun to see how they'd do.

LOL good one. It's so funny how people continue to whine about it, and seem to think that the Olympic team is solely made up of the 12 most gifted basketball players in the US. It never has been. Throwback case in point - in her prime, Pondexter was one of the most gifted players in the world, yet a series of unfortunate choices on her part helped lead to her exclusion from the team.

She certainly wasn't "owed" anything by Team USA, and apparently she didn't do enough to be extended the honor of being asked to represent her country. Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

[Plebe]

LOL good one. It's so funny how people continue to whine about it, and seem to think that the Olympic team is solely made up of the 12 most gifted basketball players in the US. It never has been. Throwback case in point - in her prime, Pondexter was one of the most gifted players in the world, yet a series of unfortunate choices on her part helped lead to her exclusion from the team.

She certainly wasn't "owed" anything by Team USA, and apparently she didn't do enough to be extended the honor of being asked to represent her country. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Very good point.

Another example I like to use: Does anyone think that Lea Henry was one of the 12 most gifted U.S. players in 1984? Her highest individual honor in collegiate ball was earning all-SEC honors in one season. She was never an all-American.

But Henry was the point guard for Tennessee. Did she benefit from favoritism because Pat Summitt was the Olympic team coach? Or was it simply a case of her being the best fit for that position on that team? It has to be one or the other.

 

[hoophuskee]

To many of us it is not just about Parker. Rather the lack of set standards for their selection process. It is when you operate under standards that you can be held accountable. Was not inviting Chelsea Gray using the rational that she had never been part of the National Program about a player who does not understand teamwork? This issue about promoting the necessity of going through the National system has surfaced before. It seemed to have been active in quite a few other sports. It reflects a group wanting to establish and maintain their power. Often via punitive exclusion. Many athletes in other sports have chosen to represent other countries because they had little opportunity through the National selection committees of their own sports. This is not about Parker or Chelsea Gray but about the proper exercise of power in positions of trust.

When taken as a whole and not focusing on their isolated rationals for why the chose people it seems they create criteria to justify their picks rather than picking based on a criteria. You give a rational for their potential issue with Parker, but that is all it is - a rational. It might fly in respect to teamwork, but it does not account for other selections. Can you honestly tell me with a straight face that there are not politics and agenda's involved with the selection process. It seems people do not want to see unless it is their Ox being gored.

I trust my instincts about such things because time has usually validated them. In the case of the National committee I smell agendas and politics at work.

No problem with what you're saying. I specifically spoke of Parker. I'm with you. I was very vocal a few years ago that imo she should have gotten on. In just in terms of Parker for this time, imo there si no way she should be invited if she isn't willing to even tryout.

 

[hoophuskee]

This UCONN fan doesn't know what you are talking about because " talent" is the primary reason any player is selected for any national team. This UCONN fan believes Parker could have been included on 2016 but fully understands why she might have been excluded for Basketball Only reasons. This UCONN fan understands that it was Parker's decision not to be included in the selection process for 2018 National team. This UCONN fan knows that the way "Geno does things" at UCONN is not the way USA basketball does things. Do you?

"Primary" reason saying "talent" is irrelevant alone. If you are "Ty CObb" you aren't getting an invitation. If you aren't playing in the structure within the concept the coaching staff has set forth - you don't deserve a spot. This is Team USA. Not a pickup game.

 

[Carnac]

Is Parker finished with team USA?

YES!!!

 

[Carnac]

will be a nice experience for the college players but can't really see any of them making a final team (MAYBE Wilson, but only if Griner, Fowles, N. Ogwumike, Charles injured--and even then, Dolson has more experience). Really interested to see if they start grooming some younger guards--Bird/Whalen/Augustus/Taurasi can't be around for forever.

On that note, where's Vandersloot?

"Guards--Bird/Whalen/Augustus/Taurasi can't be around for forever". No they can't. They're ALL getting long in the tooth. This has to be their last rodeo, as they are in their mid-30's. In 2024, the next wave of USA super stars will make their debut. These "senior statesmen" will either be coaching, or cheering from the stands.

 

[hugefan]

Love EricLAs post.

With regard to the grumbling, One could argue that is player homerism. One could argue for arguing sake about any player but arguing about one player does not reflect that USA is a team not about individual players. Anyone arguing that some Uconn players should not be on the team in my opinion doesn’t value the reason why Uconn is so dominant and thus doesn’t place enough value on team basketball. Arguing for a player who talks and tweets about herself being dissed again shows a lack of value of team over me. There is a reason players from the highest team oriented club are on USA, it is because they learn very early on to be selfless players for the ultimate goal.

 

[CocoHusky]

Love EricLAs post.

With regard to the grumbling, One could argue that is player homerism. One could argue for arguing sake about any player but arguing about one player does not reflect that USA is a team not about individual players. Anyone arguing that some Uconn players should not be on the team in my opinion doesn’t value the reason why Uconn is so dominant and thus doesn’t place enough value on team basketball. Arguing for a player who talks and tweets about herself being dissed again shows a lack of value of team over me. There is a reason players from the highest team oriented club are on USA, it is because they learn very early on to be selfless players for the ultimate goal.

The player grumblings were and remain highly unsubstantiated no matter how many times they are repeated here. If one tweet or even a series of tweets were to define a person's value system then Geno should be allowed to tweet again -or maybe not.

 

[EricSD]

Love EricLAs post.

With regard to the grumbling, One could argue that is player homerism. One could argue for arguing sake about any player but arguing about one player does not reflect that USA is a team not about individual players. Anyone arguing that some Uconn players should not be on the team in my opinion doesn’t value the reason why Uconn is so dominant and thus doesn’t place enough value on team basketball. Arguing for a player who talks and tweets about herself being dissed again shows a lack of value of team over me. There is a reason players from the highest team oriented club are on USA, it is because they learn very early on to be selfless players for the ultimate goal.

Thank you for the compliment! It's easy to misunderstand your post. The grumbling you are referring to, I assume, is fan grumbling (since that's what I was referencing, and several others have as well). It's highly unsubstantiated that that the reason she was left off the team had anything to do with he immense basketball skills since no one ever really said why.

If journalists like Voepel are left to guess (direct quote from her) "There will be plenty of theories about why. Some will say it's strictly strategic: that the U.S. team somehow felt it had a surplus of what Parker does, and despite her being on the short list of "best in the world," she was the odd woman out. That seems absurd. Others will say it came down to chemistry/personality clashes. But even if you don't think this is some kind of personality conflict that goes way back, it's still jarring to think Parker will not be on the Olympic team.".

It's pretty clear she doesn't believe Parker was left off because of the "basketball skills" theory. But unless the committee, Parker, teammates, or coaches speak out, we will never know for sure, and will be left to speculate. Parker's continued petty petulance on the subject won't do anything to sway those on the fence as to "why".

USA Basketball almost certainly explained the decision privately, or at least offered to do so. This quote from committee chair Carol Callan says as much:

"We generally don't talk about players that aren't here because there's a variety of reasons why they aren't," Callan said. "She's one of them. We choose not to try to speak for them. I would simply suggest you ask her. Candace has been an important part of our program over the years, and we talked about the decision when she didn't make the Olympic roster. I don't want to speak for her or try to verbalize."​

Bingo @Plebe. That seems to be the only answer we will every publicly get...​

 

[willtalk]

I don't understand how this discussion became about Uconn vis Tenn. Perhaps in respect to Parker this MIGHT be true, still I resent the issue I presented being put into that category. WCBB is about more than those two programs or their on going feud. It is true that sometimes we either do not see a problem or rather just ignore it until it effects people we are fans of. Still reason should require us to remain objective and want things to be fair for everyone. Homerism should have no place in either the selection of teams or these discussions. Neither should personal feeling or agenda's.

I am not implying that everyone who has a say in the selection is overtly pushing an agenda, only that in this sort of situation over time it becomes an accepted process. The best way is to remove those that have personal agenda's. Every collage coach is able to promote their agenda whether they actively do so or not. It is a given.

Before I was a WBB fan I was a womens volleyball follower. Our local college UOP, became a national power because their coach was the National Coach. Whether he showed favoritism to players on his team was irrelevant. By the way I don't think he did and he was definitely the best choice to coach the National team. Still the perception that he could gave him the advantage when it came to recruiting and UOP became a National Power in Volleyball.

Is it possible for a coach or someone affiliated with any program to be truly objective when it comes to the National team?. I personally believe it is time for the National program to distance itself form all college programs or coaches if only to avoid any conflict of interests. Any player who has aspirations to play on the national team would certainly be influenced in choosing a program that might increase their chances at being selected. Familiarity does play a part in the selection process. That can not be denied. The fact that they gave the excuse that Chelsea Gray was not included in the 29 players chosen for the camp because she had not previously attended a camp. This triggered my memories about athletes in other sports who claimed that there was an established click inherent within their sports selection committee and familiarity rather than ability was more important. This is just wrong.

I have always been about giving everyone an equal chance. I also find it interesting that many people who are all about civil rights and equality seem to have closed eyes and a different standard when it that lack of equality manifest in a different venue. If you compartmentalize equal opportunity then you are not really supporting equal rights.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Okay, what about Catchings in the last Olympics? I don't think she "earned" a spot on that team, I think she was flat out given a spot to honor her for a long successful career. That seems to fly in the face of "best players should make the team." She was a savy veteran but I don't think she had much left in the tank at that point.

 

[DallasBUFan]

DT had left her Russian team. Her numbers were not good this season. :/

 

[Orangutan]

Are you chumming the waters for hostile debate by comparing Jewel to D? Jewel is a very good player, but you will never hear “we have Jewel and you don’t.”

You may not believe this and I don't blame you if you don't, but I was really just looking at various USA guards' Basketball Reference pages and was struck by the similarity between their stat lines.

Obviously, stats don't tell the whole story. DT is a winner and can turn it on in big moments. If I had any point, it was to show that Jewell is not that far off of Diana's level of performance right now. Diana at her peak blows Jewell away but I think she's a couple years past her peak and that trend typically does not reverse...

 

[Orangutan]

Okay, what about Catchings in the last Olympics? I don't think she "earned" a spot on that team, I think she was flat out given a spot to honor her for a long successful career. That seems to fly in the face of "best players should make the team." She was a savy veteran but I don't think she had much left in the tank at that point.

I totally disagree. She was still highly effective in 2016. She scored 18.5 points/36 min. in 2016, which is right on her career average. Her field goal percentage was actually above her career average. She was still 2nd in the league in steals.

I don't recall if I saw her play live in 2016. In the 2015 playoffs, Indiana beat Chicago in the 1st round I did watch her live. She was the best player on the floor in that series (better than Delle Donne).

Besides, she's perfect for a team like USAB in that she is versatile and doesn't need the ball to have an impact on the game.