Transgender HS athletes win All-State honors in women's track

[oldude]

Guys, this is not a black and white issue. There appears to be a general unwillingness to discuss, or ignorance of DSD (Disorders of Sex Development), which develop before birth, usually involving chromosomal or testosterone abnormalities.

So let me personalize it. Many of us, myself included, take great joy in having children who compete in sports. Imagine having a daughter competing in sports who was told she was not a girl and could no longer compete with other girls. How would you console your daughter facing the heartbreak and humiliation of that decision?

 

[oldude]

If you got a Y you belong in the men's division. Natural elevated testosterone levels should be ok. Can testing determine if the elevated levels are natural or drug induced? No one should be forced to take hormones to compete.

Unfortunately, there are some individuals that are born with XXY chromosomes. Beyond that, natural testosterone is somewhat different than synthetic testosterone which can in fact be determined during drug testing.

 

[j66kicker]

Unfortunately, there are some individuals that are born with XXY chromosomes. Beyond that, natural testosterone is somewhat different than synthetic testosterone which can in fact be determined during drug testing.

Some of the illegal (and legal) PEDs just cause the body to increase its natural testosterone levels. So now one of the tests in some (male) sports - baseball in particular - is for natural testosterone levels. If the tested level is beyond a certain defined point deemed unreasonably high, then you fail. MLB players and their personal trainers have become very good at keeping their "natural" testosterone levels just under the legal limit.

 

[oldude]

Some of the illegal (and legal) PEDs just cause the body to increase its natural testosterone levels. So now one of the tests in some (male) sports - baseball in particular - is for natural testosterone levels. If the tested level is beyond a certain defined point deemed unreasonably high, then you fail. MLB players and their personal trainers have become very good at keeping their "natural" testosterone levels just under the legal limit.

I know it’s a bit of a shell game, but Semenya was given a battery of tests which ultimately determined that she was one of those rare individuals with a naturally elevated level of testosterone.

 

[dogged1]

Guys, this is not a black and white issue. There appears to be a general unwillingness to discuss, or ignorance of DSD (Disorders of Sex Development), which develop before birth, usually involving chromosomal or testosterone abnormalities.

So let me personalize it. Many of us, myself included, take great joy in having children who compete in sports. Imagine having a daughter competing in sports who was told she was not a girl and could no longer compete with other girls. How would you console your daughter facing the heartbreak and humiliation of that decision?

A thoughtful question with a compassionate point of view. I will try to respond in a similar manner, but with a slightly different take.

Imagine a typical young woman in high school who plays a semi contact sport (field hockey, basketball, soccer), weighs in at 110 – 120 lbs. at 5’4” to 5’6” with the muscle mass, strength, and speed commensurate with a top notch female athlete. Now she has to go up against a born male identifying as female athlete, weighing in at 160 to 180, 5' 8"to 6'0", male muscle mass ratio, strength and speed of a top notch male athlete. She will be knocked down repeatedly, outmuscled repeatedly and beaten to ball/goal over and over again. She will be beaten and humiliated. How would that father console his daughter, possibly from a hospital bed? Is she better off for having competed in an unwinnable game, or should that game never have taken place?

Setting aside scenarios that can play on our emotions, what your post is looking for is fairness for all. In the real world that is an unattainable goal. Within each gender hormone output of an individual will like many traits follow a bell curve. Life isn’t fair to the males or females who fall to the far left of that curve nor, sometimes, to those who fall on the far right of the curve.

I have sympathy and respect for anyone who is hormonally an outlier. That would make the already difficult teenage years near impossible. I also have sympathy and respect for any who was born to one gender, but believes they are the other. I can’t imagine how difficult that life must be.

But I also know that I would not want my daughter competing against a born male in a semi-contact or contact sport.

 

[oldude]

A thoughtful question with a compassionate point of view. I will try to respond in a similar manner, but with a slightly different take.

Imagine a typical young woman in high school who plays a semi contact sport (field hockey, basketball, soccer), weighs in at 110 – 120 lbs. at 5’4” to 5’6” with the muscle mass, strength, and speed commensurate with a top notch female athlete. Now she has to go up against a born male identifying as female athlete, weighing in at 160 to 180, 5' 8"to 6'0", male muscle mass ratio, strength and speed of a top notch male athlete. She will be knocked down repeatedly, outmuscled repeatedly and beaten to ball/goal over and over again. She will be beaten and humiliated. How would that father console his daughter, possibly from a hospital bed? Is she better off for having competed in an unwinnable game, or should that game never have taken place?

Setting aside scenarios that can play on our emotions, what your post is looking for is fairness for all. In the real world that is an unattainable goal. Within each gender hormone output of an individual will like many traits follow a bell curve. Life isn’t fair to the males or females who fall to the far left of that curve nor, sometimes, to those who fall on the far right of the curve.

I have sympathy and respect for anyone who is hormonally an outlier. That would make the already difficult teenage years near impossible. I also have sympathy and respect for any who was born to one gender, but believes they are the other. I can’t imagine how difficult that life must be.

But I also know that I would not want my daughter competing against a born male in a semi-contact or contact sport.

We don’t disagree. The state of Alaska’s policy appears to be arbitrary and unfair. But my point is that there is a gray area that is much more complex that affects girls and women who are biologically female from birth.

 

[Jeff H]

A thoughtful question with a compassionate point of view. I will try to respond in a similar manner, but with a slightly different take.

Imagine a typical young woman in high school who plays a semi contact sport (field hockey, basketball, soccer), weighs in at 110 – 120 lbs. at 5’4” to 5’6” with the muscle mass, strength, and speed commensurate with a top notch female athlete. Now she has to go up against a born male identifying as female athlete, weighing in at 160 to 180, 5' 8"to 6'0", male muscle mass ratio, strength and speed of a top notch male athlete. She will be knocked down repeatedly, outmuscled repeatedly and beaten to ball/goal over and over again. She will be beaten and humiliated. How would that father console his daughter, possibly from a hospital bed? Is she better off for having competed in an unwinnable game, or should that game never have taken place?

Setting aside scenarios that can play on our emotions, what your post is looking for is fairness for all. In the real world that is an unattainable goal. Within each gender hormone output of an individual will like many traits follow a bell curve. Life isn’t fair to the males or females who fall to the far left of that curve nor, sometimes, to those who fall on the far right of the curve.

I have sympathy and respect for anyone who is hormonally an outlier. That would make the already difficult teenage years near impossible. I also have sympathy and respect for any who was born to one gender, but believes they are the other. I can’t imagine how difficult that life must be.

But I also know that I would not want my daughter competing against a born male in a semi-contact or contact sport.

Our field hockey team has two boys on it now and has had others in the past. They are competitive, but not dominant. My two daughters have been playing fairly high level adult co-ed soccer for years. There are certainly issues involved, but there is perhaps a greater ability for the two genders to be on the field at the same time than some might think.

 

[dogged1]

Our field hockey team has two boys on it now and has had others in the past. They are competitive, but not dominant. My two daughters have been playing fairly high level adult co-ed soccer for years. There are certainly issues involved, but there is perhaps a greater ability for the two genders to be on the field at the same time than some might think.

In some circumstances, I have no problem with men and women competing. When there isn't a significant size differential even in a contact sport it can be a good thing for all participants.

For the record at age 35, I went to karate classes with my 8 year old son. I ended up staying with it for 8 years. It was JKA, Shotokan, in theory non-contact, in reality, ouch. Men and women trained together and sparred against each other. Four of my best teachers were female black belts, who regularly whipped my butt, due to superior experience, technique and conditioning, negating whatever size, strength advantage I had.

Also, for the record, that was along time ago.

 

[PhillyCoach]

Unfortunately, there are some individuals that are born with XXY chromosomes. Beyond that, natural testosterone is somewhat different than synthetic testosterone which can in fact be determined during drug testing.

Hey oldude-- I can hear your compassion and empathy.
I see this as a two part dilemma. People who are BORN with an unusual chromosome or physical feature and the born male who takes drugs and gets surgery to superficially change their sex.
It looks to me that 99% of posters see the born male who chooses to change--is out of bounds. Totally unfair. For some, it makes no sense and this unfairness is entirely forced on the masses. However, a child born with unusual characteristics can be handled more fairly. This person had no choice. Each organization should handle the case in the best way possible for that specific league or situation. The government should not make a -one size fits all-decision that leaves little for discussion.
Simply put--born male-compete male. Born with unusual characteristics to be handled locally, not a universal mandate.

 

[ed4ourgirls]

If the issue becomes one of the disadvantage of one person versus the disadvantage of a great many people,
I would go with Mill and Bentham and support the greatest good for the greatest number.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Inies in that line over there, outies in this line please.

 

[gandydancer]

Being a gearhead I like to use an auto analogy. If you have a stick shift you compete with the men. If you're chopped and channeled you compete with the women.

 

[Bobcat]

Starting this thread mainly to get some "non-political" thoughts.
A HS athletes born male but identifying as female were given permission to compete in women's events in HS track and field in Alaska. The outcome was somewhat predictable with the transgender athletes winning All-State honors in women's track. Could women's basketball be next?
High School Boy Wins All-State Honors In Girls Track And Field
Personally, I'm very supportive of the ability for every child to have an opportunity to compete, but much more supportive of fairness in the competition. I would not support this decision because I believe it to be unfair on the basis of biology.
What say you?

 

[Bobcat]

If boys who identify as girls can play in girls' sports, then they should require girls who identify as boys play in boys' sports.

 

[zonetrapper]

Friends, this is more nuanced than some are willing to see. Many transgendered people are not noticeable (or famous, or rich) in the way that Caitlyn Jenner is. I can guarantee you that there are transgender people around you of whom you're unaware. Also, more often than people realize, babies are born with ambiguous genitalia and, privately, OBs/surgeons and parents are essentially picking a sex for the baby. Sometimes they get it wrong, and sometimes that causes great distress when that baby grows up. As noted above, this can also be based on innate hormone imbalance rather than the wrong surgical assignment at birth.
This picture of the hulking "boy" who has deviously decided to become a "girl" for the purpose of intimidating the true girls in sports or in the restroom is outmoded. Please consider your language and educate yourself.
Cheers! - a committed women's hoops fan.

 

[Paul1969]

I stand with Transgender folks who will suffer far more in their lifetime then any athlete who comes in second...

 

[dogged1]

I stand with Transgender folks who will suffer far more in their lifetime then any athlete who comes in second...

OK, It sounds good as a stand alone comment. But when the Transgender person who took first place is a 180 lbs male born athlete and the second place is a 120 lb female born athlete, whose been beaten to a pulp due to size and weight, how proud should either of you be about that accomplishment? I would hope for a little more nuance. Their suffering doesn't give them the right to take it out on a smaller weaker person.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

I stand with Transgender folks who will suffer far more in their lifetime then any athlete who comes in second...

I guess the same "argument" would apply to car loan rates, educational grading, movie admission fees and department store discounts, right?

 

[ritter]

Transgender players in the NCAA and I am out as a fan.

 

[temery]

Our field hockey team has two boys on it now and has had others in the past. They are competitive, but not dominant. My two daughters have been playing fairly high level adult co-ed soccer for years. There are certainly issues involved, but there is perhaps a greater ability for the two genders to be on the field at the same time than some might think.

The boys in my area who play field hockey in my area are very dominant. One sent one of my students to the hospital.

 

[CocoHusky]

I stand with Transgender folks who will suffer far more in their lifetime then any athlete who comes in second...

But isn't relegating someone to finish "second" the same kind of unfair discrimination that transgender people experience everyday?
Is it ever really ok to discriminate and be unfair because you have been discriminated against?

 

[temery]

Unfortunately, there are some individuals that are born with XXY chromosomes. Beyond that, natural testosterone is somewhat different than synthetic testosterone which can in fact be determined during drug testing.

That's a red herring that's easy enough to address - Y chromosome = boy. XXY is incredibly rare, and doesn't belong in this discussion.

 

[oldude]

That's a red herring that's easy enough to address - Y chromosome = boy. XXY is incredibly rare, and doesn't belong in this discussion.

The specific condition is called Klinefelter syndrome. I’m not sure what you consider rare, but approximately 3000 American children are born each year with the condition. There are approximately 200,000 Americans with the condition, and well over 1 million individuals worldwide.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

That's a red herring that's easy enough to address - Y chromosome = boy. XXY is incredibly rare, and doesn't belong in this discussion.

This is truly a read herring, but according to the Gov: "It is estimated that 1 in every 500 to 1,000 newborn males has an extra X chromosome, making Klinefelter syndrome one of the most common chromosomal disorders seen among newborns. Variants of Klinefelter syndrome (such as 48,XXXY, 49,XXXXY) are much rarer, occurring in 1 in 50,000 to 1 in 85,000 or fewer newborns." Klinefelter syndrome | Genetic and Rare Diseases Information Center (GARD) – an NCATS Program

It's simple really. If you are a male wanting to compete as a female because you think you are a female, then you are a female who has been taking illegal performance enhancing drugs your whole life and should not be allowed to compete.

 

[dogged1]

That's a red herring that's easy enough to address - Y chromosome = boy. XXY is incredibly rare, and doesn't belong in this discussion.

The specific condition is called Klinefelter syndrome. I’m not sure what you consider rare, but approximately 3000 American children are born each year with the condition. There are approximately 200,000 Americans with the condition, and well over 1 million individuals worldwide.

Temery's point, that the numbers of Klinefelter Syndrome make it statistically insignificant is irrefutable. Taking oldude's number of 1 million cases worldwide out of a population of 7,600,000,000 yields a frequency of 1 on 7,600. That means their are about 472 cases in the state of Connecticut. Of those 472 how many will have an interest in, and be of an age to participate in high school, college or amateur sports?

But oldude's argument is more compelling. We are all human and their should be a place in sports for everyone.

Apologies if I have misrepresented anyone's point of view.