Transgender HS athletes win All-State honors in women's track

[mbr33ct]

Rather than getting into any elaborate discussion regarding this topic, I will just say this;

Coed/Team sports = ok
Individual sport = not ok

 

[Jeff H]

This reminds me of an experience I had some years back in a grocery store. How many of us have not given or taken upsee's when one person has a basket full and the other has one or two items. One time I had a few items in my hand and this lady offered the spot in front of her. I thanked her but explained to her that the spot was not hers to offer unless the seven people behind her agreed. So I went to the end of the line.

I have often, when noticing a person who it appeared like waiting in line might be a hardship for them, traded places with them. Meaning I gave them my place and took theirs at the end of the line. We do not have the right to be generous with someone else position in line. Unfortunately too many people think of themselves as kind and generous with others peoples metaphoric places in line. Life is like that. More often than not, when we give an advantage it comes at the expense of another.

Paul do you really feel qualified to gage an individuals level of suffering? The effort it takes to train to compete at a high level is a sacrifice the individual makes and a form of suffering itself. We are not talking about one second place finish. If this becomes standard and acceptable that second place finish might end up becoming a third fourth or even being eliminated from competing in the finals. These finishes often result in scholarships. Anyone who doesn't believe that the quest for athletic excellence would not drive a considerable percentage of individuals to transgender, is naive. Especially when money, fame or even a scholarship is at stake.

I suggest that if people want to help people they think need a hand up, than let they themselves make the necessary sacrifice. If they can't do that then it is not their right ( like that lady in line at the store ) to give. It is very easy to make decisions which will have no negative impact on oneself, and especially tempting when it enhances one's own self image as a kind and generous person. Too many people today are generous with someone else's place in line.

Do you really feel qualified to make this statement? Do you have an understanding what transitioning entails? It is an incredibly huge life changing decision. Try to imagine yourself telling all your friends and family you're now a different sex than they always thought you were. Maybe I'm naive, but to me your statement is akin to saying a considerable percentage of individuals would cut off their leg to be a successful paralympian.

 

[CocoHusky]

Rather than getting into any elaborate discussion regarding this topic, I will just say this;

Coed/Team sports = ok
Individual sport = not ok

Lol. "Elaborate discussion" ? Here?
Perhaps differences of opinion: For me.
Coed Sports=ok eg., Coed basketball.
Team sports=not ok eg., Women's basketball should remain just that.
Individual sport= not ok eg., Tennis

 

[Paul1969]

It’s all “confusion”. Extremely saddening.

Gender Identity is not confusion. It's a medical condition called gender disphoria. Additionally, 1% of humns are born with both male and female parts, intersexed. I have a close friend who was born intersexed and his family raised him as a female but he identifies as male. He is now putting the finishing touches on his body to complete the transition that nature failed in it's magnificant creation of him. Transgender folks are not common and transgender athletes are even less common. This is another non-issue where folks feel the need to insert their "opinions" which are not based on science but predjucies. Anyone who quotes chromosomes should educate themselves. this issue is far more complicated than Y and X or hormones.

 

[temery]

Gender Identity is not confusion. It's a medical condition called gender disphoria. Additionally, 1% of humns are born with both male and female parts, intersexed. I have a close friend who was born intersexed and his family raised him as a female but he identifies as male. He is now putting the finishing touches on his body to complete the transition that nature failed in it's magnificant creation of him. Transgender folks are not common and transgender athletes are even less common. This is another non-issue where folks feel the need to insert their "opinions" which are not based on science but predjucies. Anyone who quotes chromosomes should educate themselves. this issue is far more complicated than Y and X or hormones.

As far as living as a transgender, I imagine it is very complicated. As far as sports is concerned, it is about having a Y chromosome. It is that black and white.

 

[Centerstream]

Gender Identity is not confusion. It's a medical condition called gender disphoria. Additionally, 1% of humns are born with both male and female parts, intersexed. I have a close friend who was born intersexed and his family raised him as a female but he identifies as male. He is now putting the finishing touches on his body to complete the transition that nature failed in it's magnificant creation of him. Transgender folks are not common and transgender athletes are even less common. This is another non-issue where folks feel the need to insert their "opinions" which are not based on science but predjucies. Anyone who quotes chromosomes should educate themselves. this issue is far more complicated than Y and X or hormones.

When it comes to athletes, chromosomes do matter as far as an unfair advantage is concerned. As far as that individual's identity, chromosomes do not matter as you stated. If a transgender person feels the need to compete, then try the debate team, the science fair, or other competitions where physical advantages won't come into play.
If a transgender athlete decides to compete against members of the opposite sex than they were born as, in my opinion, they are just looking for their 15 minutes of fame and the chance for their own reality show, which I am sure ESPN would be chomping at the bit to produce.

 

[CocoHusky]

Gender Identity is not confusion. It's a medical condition called gender disphoria. Additionally, 1% of humns are born with both male and female parts, intersexed. I have a close friend who was born intersexed and his family raised him as a female but he identifies as male. He is now putting the finishing touches on his body to complete the transition that nature failed in it's magnificant creation of him. Transgender folks are not common and transgender athletes are even less common. This is another non-issue where folks feel the need to insert their "opinions" which are not based on science but predjucies. Anyone who quotes chromosomes should educate themselves. this issue is far more complicated than Y and X or hormones.

Paul much like @temery has stated let's make sure we clarify THE issue. This issue is about transgender participation in sports. More specifically about athletes born male being allowed to complete in women's sports. While a further understanding (education) of Y, X or the hormones would definitely enhance my empathy (which is already significant) for what transgender people have to go through it would not change my base opinion: The biological advantage is too significant and thus unfair in sports.

BTW
You can't have it both ways. You can't say in one sentence say that this is a "non-issue" and in another say it is a "this issue is complicated" and that people need to educate themselves.

 

[temery]

The biological advantage is too significant and thus unfair in sports.

Yep, that's the bottom line.

 

[Jeff H]

I don't mean this to be a position I'm taking, just food for thought. Let's say I'm a transgender female (born male, now female) and I'm a basketball player. Suppose I'm good enough to play in the WNBA, but I'm not as good as Griner, Fowles, Moore, Parker etc. We say that because I was born male I have a "unfair biological advantage", which we could say we are differentiating from "fair biological advantages" (born taller, faster, stronger). So even though I'm competing with some who it could be argued have a greater biological advantage than I do, I'm excluded. If we concede that every great athlete is born with a biological advantage, then are we saying upping yours by changing sexes is what makes it unacceptable. And then, at least in some ways are we saying "it's not that you have a biological advantage, it's that you're not really a girl"

 

[CocoHusky]

I don't mean this to be a position I'm taking, just food for thought. Let's say I'm a transgender female (born male, now female) and I'm a basketball player. Suppose I'm good enough to play in the WNBA, but I'm not as good as Griner, Fowles, Moore, Parker etc. We say that because I was born male I have a "unfair biological advantage", which we could say we are differentiating from "fair biological advantages" (born taller, faster, stronger). So even though I'm competing with some who it could be argued have a greater biological advantage than I do, I'm excluded. If we concede that every great athlete is born with a biological advantage, then are we saying upping yours by changing sexes is what makes it unacceptable. And then, at least in some ways are we saying "it's not that you have a biological advantage, it's that you're not really a girl"

Not really. Certainly biological advantage exists but these "advantages" are neither fair or unfair; they are entirely random and uncontrollable. The competition (sporting event) is exactly the opposite, it is not random and entirely controllable in terms of who is allow to participate in what events.

 

[dogged1]

Like I said. rare. Regardless, Y Chomosome = male.

As far as living as a transgender, I imagine it is very complicated. As far as sports is concerned, it is about having a Y chromosome. It is that black and white.

While I concede that an argument over Klinefelter’s Syndrome is a red herring in a debate over born males identifying as females playing against females, I am not comfortable with a flat out Y = male statement.

If XX = female
And XY = male
Then there is no logic that says XXY is one or the other.

The victims of this disorder are biologically classed as male due to external genitalia. But the muscle mass, hormone output and co-ordination levels are all typically far below the male norm. A decent female athlete would have no difficulty competing against a Klinefelter’s Syndrome person. Which only re-enforces the red herring argument.

 

[dogged1]

There should be a place in sports for everyone, but it's not always the place you want.

I guess that today is my day for splitting hairs, not always a wise thing, but sometimes needful.

I do agree with your addition to my thought. When I wrote the line that oldude admired I was thinking of my son. He is autistic, among other "problems". He had just participated in the summer Special Olympics at Southern Connecticut last weekend, bicycle 5K. He finished 4th out of 4 in his heat (albeit the fastest group). It didn't matter, he was happy and smiling over his red ribbon and I could not have been prouder. So the “place” he participated in wasn't what I would want or what he would have chosen, but it can turn out to be a good place after all. In some ways it is sports at its best.

So, I may have dragged us off topic, but a salute to all the volunteers that made that great experience happen for all those special men and women, young and old.

 

[Centerstream]

While I concede that an argument over Klinefelter’s Syndrome is a red herring in a debate over born males identifying as females playing against females, I am not comfortable with a flat out Y = male statement.

If XX = female
And XY = male
Then there is no logic that says XXY is one or the other.

The victims of this disorder are biologically classed as male due to external genitalia. But the muscle mass, hormone output and co-ordination levels are all typically far below the male norm. A decent female athlete would have no difficulty competing against a Klinefelter’s Syndrome person. Which only re-enforces the red herring argument.

Do the two transgender people that competed in the CT races have this syndrome? I was under the impression that they didn't and were biologically "normal" males that identified as females and thus were entitled by the State to compete against real females.

 

[temery]

While I concede that an argument over Klinefelter’s Syndrome is a red herring in a debate over born males identifying as females playing against females, I am not comfortable with a flat out Y = male statement.

If XX = female
And XY = male
Then there is no logic that says XXY is one or the other.

The victims of this disorder are biologically classed as male due to external genitalia. But the muscle mass, hormone output and co-ordination levels are all typically far below the male norm. A decent female athlete would have no difficulty competing against a Klinefelter’s Syndrome person. Which only re-enforces the red herring argument.

XXY is a male with an extra X chromosome.

 

[dogged1]

Do the two transgender people that competed in the CT races have this syndrome? I was under the impression that they didn't and were biologically "normal" males that identified as females and thus were entitled by the State to compete against real females.

I am confused. What CT races are you referring to? The Special Olympics from my other post? Transgender does not necessarily equal Klinefetler's. There are so few in the state of Connecticut i would doubt that they are the two you mentioned.

 

[dogged1]

XXY is a male with an extra X chromosome.

As I conceded, their syndrome has little to do with "born males males identifying as females" competing against females argument. As I conceded, they are biologically classed as males. Your statement is correct and at the same time it obscures truth.

 

[wbbfjlf]

I am confused. What CT races are you referring to? The Special Olympics from my other post? Transgender does not necessarily equal Klinefetler's. There are so few in the state of Connecticut i would doubt that they are the two you mentioned.

Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood swept the competition at the state championships for girls track and field.
link to article: Transgender track stars win state championship, ignites debate over rules

 

[Centerstream]

I am confused. What CT races are you referring to? The Special Olympics from my other post? Transgender does not necessarily equal Klinefetler's. There are so few in the state of Connecticut i would doubt that they are the two you mentioned.

I understand your confusion...I was confusing the OT story with one about the two transgender track runners in CT..

Transgender Track Athlete Wins CT State Championship, Debate Ensues

 

[microfich]

Starting this thread mainly to get some "non-political" thoughts.

Well it got political anyway.

No one should be prohibited from playing at their highest level.
This is as far as I could get to a fair solution without a counter-argument compelling me to think again. I’m thinking this results in lines drawn that still leave many unhappy.

 

[ME Husky Fan]

Let's just cut with the men's vs. ladies distinction and have a free for all. One league, come one come all and then let's see the you know what hit the fan. Could Maya play with the big boys? Could Serena mix it up competitively against Nadal? Jennie Finch against Mookie would be interesting so long as she could pitch fast-pitch.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

A lot of this discussion has really strayed all over the place. Interesting, but -

to the original point. Someones gender identity choices, the challenges of transitioning and all the rest is a valid area of concerns and difficulties. I respect anyone who is able to find happiness in changing their gender identification. But the issue is one of athletic fairness. As has been noted - including in other threads - biologically male individuals simply have different athletic capabilities than biologically born females. And having a biologically born male - and especially one who competed in athletics as a male - compete against females is ultimately unfair to the females.

I really think there are 2 choices - make a ruling based on chromosomes as some have suggested, or have everyone compete together and divide not by gender but skill level / ability.

No thread on this board or anywhere is going to solve this issue, it will be interesting to see how it evolves.

 

[Puppy Love]

Oh man, this subject really makes me crazy. As a woman who is old enough to remember when women as a group had very few opportunities at all, I see this as a step backwards in women's rights. It is well documented scientifically that testosterone provides an athletic advantage. It doesn't take science to see that boys grow bigger, faster and stronger once puberty hits. Further, the advantage in size and strength is greater by the time they are seniors than it was as freshman. This is at the same time that most biological girls are going through the changes of breast growth, menstual periods and changes in body fat composition.

For me, this isn't about whether either biological boy (one of whom who also participated on a boys team this year) should be able to compete. It is about the right of the young women in the state to have fair athletic competition. It baffles me that adults can say to them 'your rights matter less than someone else's'. It is wrong to tell them to compete in races where they will have very little chance of ever winning. This isn't a hypothetical argument. Biological girls (young women) are being hurt. How long before they start saying 'I am not going to participate because it doesn't matter how hard I work.'? I think that the only way that this is resolved fairly is to either not allow the biological boys to compete unless they are on medication to reduce testosterone (similar to the NCAA) or to establish a time handicap that erases the advantage testosterone provides. It doesn't help the transgendered when they get an artificial sense of victory created by winning a race that clearly isn't fair. Right now, no one wins.

 

[dogged1]

Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood swept the competition at the state championships for girls track and field.
link to article: Transgender track stars win state championship, ignites debate over rules

I understand your confusion...I was confusing the OT story with one about the two transgender track runners in CT..

Transgender Track Athlete Wins CT State Championship, Debate Ensues

Thanks for the clarification guys. Just to restate my position, I agree with Temery that a "born male athlete identify as female" should not be allowed to compete against a female born athlete, across the board, but most definitely not in semi contact or contact sports. My only divergent point is that for that less than .1% of humanity that has a genetic "aberration" (no disrespect intended) things are not all black and white,and the presence of a Y chromosome is not the sole definition of male.

It has been an enlightening conversation. Thanks to all.

 

[SVCBeercats]

IOC rules transgender athletes can take part in Olympics without surgery
"Female-to-male athletes can compete ‘without restriction’, while male-to-female athletes must undergo hormone therapy, according to new guidelines"
"Under the previous IOC guidelines, approved in 2003, athletes who transitioned from male to female or vice versa were required to have reassignment surgery followed by at least two years of hormone therapy in order to be eligible to compete. Now, surgery will no longer be required, with female-to-male transgender athletes eligible to take part in men’s competitions “without restriction”. Meanwhile, male-to-female transgender athletes will need to demonstrate that their testosterone level has been below a certain cutoff point for at least one year before their first competition."

Petition would force transgender HS athletes to compete by birth gender
"Now some parents and student-athletes are up in arms. I think it’s unfair to the girls who work really hard to do well and qualify for Opens and New Englands [competitions],” Selina Soule, a sophomore who finished sixth in the 100-meter at the state meet, told the Hartford Courant. “These girls, they’re just coming in and beating everyone.”

As trans high school athletes win state titles, parents petition to ban them

 

[willtalk]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.For me, this isn't about whether either biological boy (one of whom who also participated on a boys team this year) should be able to compete. It is about the right of the young women in the state to have fair athletic competition. It baffles me that adults can say to them 'your rights matter less than someone else's'. It is wrong to tell them to compete in races where they will have very little chance of ever winning. This isn't a hypothetical argument. Biological girls (young women) are being hurt. How long before they start saying 'I am not going to participate because it doesn't matter how hard I work.'? I think that the only way that this is resolved fairly is to either not allow the biological boys to compete unless they are on medication to reduce testosterone (similar to the NCAA) or to establish a time handicap that erases the advantage testosterone provides. It doesn't help the transgendered when they get an artificial sense of victory created by winning a race that clearly isn't fair. Right now, no one wins.

Good post! People seem to have forgotten the purpose of athletics is to enjoy competition, not just to win that is why events are often categorized by age, size and gender. If nothing is done to undo this trend, this will destroy everything gained under Title Nine. It will destroy girls sports and Women's college athletics. Why? To attempt help a small percentage individuals with their identity issues, you throw a vast number of other individuals under the bus. I am sure people who have always disrespected girls and women's athletics are getting a real kick out of this. People in this country seem to believe that everyone can have everything when ever they want. Sometimes the only option involves choices. It sort of reminds me of how sometimes parents become focused on one child of need and in the process ignore and throw their other children under the bus. This usually ends up being to the detriment of even the focused on child.

This is the reason I often object to political correctness. Nothing wrong with the correctness part, but the political part changes too often with time. The focus on correcting one injustice tends to transfer the injustice on to a different group. It seldom results in real justice rather switches the roles of who gets favoritism and who gets the shaft.

 

[Plebe]

I'm going to take a step back from the painting and ponder.

There seem to be two countervailing, and perhaps incompatible, societal forces at play here:
1. The established segregation of athletic competition by sex/gender.
2. The modern paradigm shift—not uniform, but certainly growing—from one of immutable, biologically determined "sex" to one of a less rigid and more multifaceted "gender."

I don't have the estimates handy, but a considerable minority of people simply don't fit neatly, for a variety of reasons, into the traditional male/female gender binary. To say that modern society (among others) has been largely unwelcoming to such people would be an understatement.

How to build a society that is less hostile and more inclusive for "nonbinary" people—e.g., by guaranteeing their right to full participation in all sorts of human endeavors, including athletics—while still preserving the strict binary segregation of sports is, to say the least, a fraught proposition.

I don't claim to have the answers on how to reconcile these forces, but I do know that the way Caster Semenya was treated was downright shameful (to say nothing of the degrading "testing" process and sensationalized publicity she was subjected to). The IAAF stunted the career of an immensely talented runner who was on a clear trajectory to break the world record in the 800 meters. Ultimately, she was targeted because she was too fast and didn't look "feminine" enough.

 

[SVCBeercats]

"Plebe, post: 2753655, member: 6927"] The IAAF stunted the career of an immensely talented runner who was on a clear trajectory to break the world record in the 800 meters. Ultimately, she was targeted because she was too fast and didn't look "feminine" enough.

Actually he is too male as in testosterone. Do as the IOC. "Female-to-male athletes can compete ‘without restriction’, while male-to-female athletes must undergo hormone therapy …" Which drops their testosterone levels down to that of a female. Think you are female, then be one and compete as one.

 

[VAUConnFan]

Back when Renee Richards started competing as a woman, it was strongly believed that she held an unfair advantage. she did not. When Martina Navratilova was dominating women's tennis, there were many who openly believed that being gay gave her an unfair advantage. Thankfully, we all know better. Thankfully also, Ms Navratilova's coming out opened the door for other female athletes. Presently, there are no studies or any empicical evidence that suggests that transgender athletes hold an unfair advantage in sports. Secondly, women's track and field records are not suddenly tumbling down in waves because of the participation of transgender athletes. The records broken in the recent CT state championships were over 20 years old. If there is any area in which a transgender athlete's unfair advantage would be immediately apparent, it would be in field events such as shot put, hammer throw, long jump, high jump, and pole vault. It has not happened.

There is much more to changing gender than a mere declaration. There are hormone treatments, surgeries, psychological evaluations. would there be a discussion about transgender participation if these particular ladies had not won in record setting fashion, or if they had not competed as successfully. While it is understandable that people might get upset about a perceived advantage. Sometimes, the right thing to do is the most painful. Regardless of the pain, the right thing to do is to allow these individuals to be who they are to compete as athletes with those they identify. And kudos to the IOC for getting out in front of this issue. In so doing, the have quite fairly addressed the issue of fairness.

 

[CocoHusky]

Back when Renee Richards started competing as a woman, it was strongly believed that she held an unfair advantage. she did not. When Martina Navratilova was dominating women's tennis, there were many who openly believed that being gay gave her an unfair advantage. Thankfully, we all know better. Thankfully also, Ms Navratilova's coming out opened the door for other female athletes. Presently, there are no studies or any empirical evidence that suggests that transgender athletes hold an unfair advantage in sports. Secondly, women's track and field records are not suddenly tumbling down in waves because of the participation of transgender athletes. The records broken in the recent CT state championships were over 20 years old. If there is any area in which a transgender athlete's unfair advantage would be immediately apparent, it would be in field events such as shot put, hammer throw, long jump, high jump, and pole vault. It has not happened.

There is much more to changing gender than a mere declaration. There are hormone treatments, surgeries, psychological evaluations. would there be a discussion about transgender participation if these particular ladies had not won in record setting fashion, or if they had not competed as successfully. While it is understandable that people might get upset about a perceived advantage. Sometimes, the right thing to do is the most painful. Regardless of the pain, the right thing to do is to allow these individuals to be who they are to compete as athletes with those they identify. And kudos to the IOC for getting out in front of this issue. In so doing, the have quite fairly addressed the issue of fairness.

A women's CT state record that stood for over 20 years is broken by an athlete born male and you don't consider that "empirical evidence" ?
This was a Women's state level meet that was "dominated" (not my words) by 2 transgender athletes. What would qualify as empirical evidence in your opinion?
"Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood dominated the competition at Connecticut’s girls track and field state championships earlier this week. Miller took 1st place in both the 100 and 200 meter dash, while Yearwood finished second in the 100."
Transgender Track Athlete Wins Girls State Championship, Debate Ensues

 

[Plebe]

"Plebe, post: 2753655, member: 6927"] The IAAF stunted the career of an immensely talented runner who was on a clear trajectory to break the world record in the 800 meters. Ultimately, she was targeted because she was too fast and didn't look "feminine" enough.

Actually he is too male as in testosterone. Do as the IOC. "Female-to-male athletes can compete ‘without restriction’, while male-to-female athletes must undergo hormone therapy …" Which drops their testosterone levels down to that of a female. Think you are female, then be one and compete as one.

Semenya is not a male. Nor is she a "male-to-female" athlete.