Transgender HS athletes win All-State honors in women's track

[RockyMTblue2]

Here's a story out of Hawaii about a transgender player in Hawaii with some video. Playing now in sanctioned events with (unrealistic) hopes to qualify for the Olympics. Transgender: Do trans athletes have an unfair advantage in sports?

It's summer. What else do we have to do?

 

[oldude]

We are all human and their should be a place in sports for everyone.

Dogged, that is one of the most profound and beautiful lines I've ever read. Well stated.

If you don't plan on copyrighting it an selling it to Nike, I just might have it engraved on my tombstone when I die.

 

[temery]

The specific condition is called Klinefelter syndrome. I’m not sure what you consider rare, but approximately 3000 American children are born each year with the condition. There are approximately 200,000 Americans with the condition, and well over 1 million individuals worldwide.

Like I said. rare. Regardless, Y Chomosome = male.

 

[Kaizen]

My thoughts:
1. Yes, there should be a place in sports for everyone.
2. But, don't take advantages of other people.

I will let you people to find the solution.

 

[temery]

But oldude's argument is more compelling. We are all human and their should be a place in sports for everyone.

There should be a place in sports for everyone, but it's not always the place you want.

 

[willtalk]

I stand with Transgender folks who will suffer far more in their lifetime then any athlete who comes in second...

This reminds me of an experience I had some years back in a grocery store. How many of us have not given or taken upsee's when one person has a basket full and the other has one or two items. One time I had a few items in my hand and this lady offered the spot in front of her. I thanked her but explained to her that the spot was not hers to offer unless the seven people behind her agreed. So I went to the end of the line.

I have often, when noticing a person who it appeared like waiting in line might be a hardship for them, traded places with them. Meaning I gave them my place and took theirs at the end of the line. We do not have the right to be generous with someone else position in line. Unfortunately too many people think of themselves as kind and generous with others peoples metaphoric places in line. Life is like that. More often than not, when we give an advantage it comes at the expense of another.

Paul do you really feel qualified to gage an individuals level of suffering? The effort it takes to train to compete at a high level is a sacrifice the individual makes and a form of suffering itself. We are not talking about one second place finish. If this becomes standard and acceptable that second place finish might end up becoming a third fourth or even being eliminated from competing in the finals. These finishes often result in scholarships. Anyone who doesn't believe that the quest for athletic excellence would not drive a considerable percentage of individuals to transgender, is naive. Especially when money, fame or even a scholarship is at stake.

I suggest that if people want to help people they think need a hand up, than let they themselves make the necessary sacrifice. If they can't do that then it is not their right ( like that lady in line at the store ) to give. It is very easy to make decisions which will have no negative impact on oneself, and especially tempting when it enhances one's own self image as a kind and generous person. Too many people today are generous with someone else's place in line.

 

[oldude]

Like I said. rare. Regardless, Y Chomosome = male.

Perhaps rare, but certainly not inappropriate as part of this discussion.

 

[Ukonnfan]

It’s all “confusion”. Extremely saddening.

 

[Sam.the.Man]

IMO allowing "athletes born male but identifying as female" to compete against "athletes born female" is total BS. No one with any Y chromosomes belongs playing in girls'/women's individual or team sports.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[temery]

There should have 3 events,
Boy event, Girl event, Whatever else belongs to event.

Most towns, including mine, have coed sports for kids of all ages.

 

[mbr33ct]

Rather than getting into any elaborate discussion regarding this topic, I will just say this;

Coed/Team sports = ok
Individual sport = not ok

 

[Jeff H]

This reminds me of an experience I had some years back in a grocery store. How many of us have not given or taken upsee's when one person has a basket full and the other has one or two items. One time I had a few items in my hand and this lady offered the spot in front of her. I thanked her but explained to her that the spot was not hers to offer unless the seven people behind her agreed. So I went to the end of the line.

I have often, when noticing a person who it appeared like waiting in line might be a hardship for them, traded places with them. Meaning I gave them my place and took theirs at the end of the line. We do not have the right to be generous with someone else position in line. Unfortunately too many people think of themselves as kind and generous with others peoples metaphoric places in line. Life is like that. More often than not, when we give an advantage it comes at the expense of another.

Paul do you really feel qualified to gage an individuals level of suffering? The effort it takes to train to compete at a high level is a sacrifice the individual makes and a form of suffering itself. We are not talking about one second place finish. If this becomes standard and acceptable that second place finish might end up becoming a third fourth or even being eliminated from competing in the finals. These finishes often result in scholarships. Anyone who doesn't believe that the quest for athletic excellence would not drive a considerable percentage of individuals to transgender, is naive. Especially when money, fame or even a scholarship is at stake.

I suggest that if people want to help people they think need a hand up, than let they themselves make the necessary sacrifice. If they can't do that then it is not their right ( like that lady in line at the store ) to give. It is very easy to make decisions which will have no negative impact on oneself, and especially tempting when it enhances one's own self image as a kind and generous person. Too many people today are generous with someone else's place in line.

Do you really feel qualified to make this statement? Do you have an understanding what transitioning entails? It is an incredibly huge life changing decision. Try to imagine yourself telling all your friends and family you're now a different sex than they always thought you were. Maybe I'm naive, but to me your statement is akin to saying a considerable percentage of individuals would cut off their leg to be a successful paralympian.

 

[CocoHusky]

Rather than getting into any elaborate discussion regarding this topic, I will just say this;

Coed/Team sports = ok
Individual sport = not ok

Lol. "Elaborate discussion" ? Here?
Perhaps differences of opinion: For me.
Coed Sports=ok eg., Coed basketball.
Team sports=not ok eg., Women's basketball should remain just that.
Individual sport= not ok eg., Tennis

 

[Paul1969]

It’s all “confusion”. Extremely saddening.

Gender Identity is not confusion. It's a medical condition called gender disphoria. Additionally, 1% of humns are born with both male and female parts, intersexed. I have a close friend who was born intersexed and his family raised him as a female but he identifies as male. He is now putting the finishing touches on his body to complete the transition that nature failed in it's magnificant creation of him. Transgender folks are not common and transgender athletes are even less common. This is another non-issue where folks feel the need to insert their "opinions" which are not based on science but predjucies. Anyone who quotes chromosomes should educate themselves. this issue is far more complicated than Y and X or hormones.

 

[temery]

Gender Identity is not confusion. It's a medical condition called gender disphoria. Additionally, 1% of humns are born with both male and female parts, intersexed. I have a close friend who was born intersexed and his family raised him as a female but he identifies as male. He is now putting the finishing touches on his body to complete the transition that nature failed in it's magnificant creation of him. Transgender folks are not common and transgender athletes are even less common. This is another non-issue where folks feel the need to insert their "opinions" which are not based on science but predjucies. Anyone who quotes chromosomes should educate themselves. this issue is far more complicated than Y and X or hormones.

As far as living as a transgender, I imagine it is very complicated. As far as sports is concerned, it is about having a Y chromosome. It is that black and white.

 

[Centerstream]

Gender Identity is not confusion. It's a medical condition called gender disphoria. Additionally, 1% of humns are born with both male and female parts, intersexed. I have a close friend who was born intersexed and his family raised him as a female but he identifies as male. He is now putting the finishing touches on his body to complete the transition that nature failed in it's magnificant creation of him. Transgender folks are not common and transgender athletes are even less common. This is another non-issue where folks feel the need to insert their "opinions" which are not based on science but predjucies. Anyone who quotes chromosomes should educate themselves. this issue is far more complicated than Y and X or hormones.

When it comes to athletes, chromosomes do matter as far as an unfair advantage is concerned. As far as that individual's identity, chromosomes do not matter as you stated. If a transgender person feels the need to compete, then try the debate team, the science fair, or other competitions where physical advantages won't come into play.
If a transgender athlete decides to compete against members of the opposite sex than they were born as, in my opinion, they are just looking for their 15 minutes of fame and the chance for their own reality show, which I am sure ESPN would be chomping at the bit to produce.

 

[CocoHusky]

Gender Identity is not confusion. It's a medical condition called gender disphoria. Additionally, 1% of humns are born with both male and female parts, intersexed. I have a close friend who was born intersexed and his family raised him as a female but he identifies as male. He is now putting the finishing touches on his body to complete the transition that nature failed in it's magnificant creation of him. Transgender folks are not common and transgender athletes are even less common. This is another non-issue where folks feel the need to insert their "opinions" which are not based on science but predjucies. Anyone who quotes chromosomes should educate themselves. this issue is far more complicated than Y and X or hormones.

Paul much like @temery has stated let's make sure we clarify THE issue. This issue is about transgender participation in sports. More specifically about athletes born male being allowed to complete in women's sports. While a further understanding (education) of Y, X or the hormones would definitely enhance my empathy (which is already significant) for what transgender people have to go through it would not change my base opinion: The biological advantage is too significant and thus unfair in sports.

BTW
You can't have it both ways. You can't say in one sentence say that this is a "non-issue" and in another say it is a "this issue is complicated" and that people need to educate themselves.

 

[temery]

The biological advantage is too significant and thus unfair in sports.

Yep, that's the bottom line.

 

[Jeff H]

I don't mean this to be a position I'm taking, just food for thought. Let's say I'm a transgender female (born male, now female) and I'm a basketball player. Suppose I'm good enough to play in the WNBA, but I'm not as good as Griner, Fowles, Moore, Parker etc. We say that because I was born male I have a "unfair biological advantage", which we could say we are differentiating from "fair biological advantages" (born taller, faster, stronger). So even though I'm competing with some who it could be argued have a greater biological advantage than I do, I'm excluded. If we concede that every great athlete is born with a biological advantage, then are we saying upping yours by changing sexes is what makes it unacceptable. And then, at least in some ways are we saying "it's not that you have a biological advantage, it's that you're not really a girl"

 

[CocoHusky]

I don't mean this to be a position I'm taking, just food for thought. Let's say I'm a transgender female (born male, now female) and I'm a basketball player. Suppose I'm good enough to play in the WNBA, but I'm not as good as Griner, Fowles, Moore, Parker etc. We say that because I was born male I have a "unfair biological advantage", which we could say we are differentiating from "fair biological advantages" (born taller, faster, stronger). So even though I'm competing with some who it could be argued have a greater biological advantage than I do, I'm excluded. If we concede that every great athlete is born with a biological advantage, then are we saying upping yours by changing sexes is what makes it unacceptable. And then, at least in some ways are we saying "it's not that you have a biological advantage, it's that you're not really a girl"

Not really. Certainly biological advantage exists but these "advantages" are neither fair or unfair; they are entirely random and uncontrollable. The competition (sporting event) is exactly the opposite, it is not random and entirely controllable in terms of who is allow to participate in what events.

 

[dogged1]

Like I said. rare. Regardless, Y Chomosome = male.

As far as living as a transgender, I imagine it is very complicated. As far as sports is concerned, it is about having a Y chromosome. It is that black and white.

While I concede that an argument over Klinefelter’s Syndrome is a red herring in a debate over born males identifying as females playing against females, I am not comfortable with a flat out Y = male statement.

If XX = female
And XY = male
Then there is no logic that says XXY is one or the other.

The victims of this disorder are biologically classed as male due to external genitalia. But the muscle mass, hormone output and co-ordination levels are all typically far below the male norm. A decent female athlete would have no difficulty competing against a Klinefelter’s Syndrome person. Which only re-enforces the red herring argument.

 

[dogged1]

There should be a place in sports for everyone, but it's not always the place you want.

I guess that today is my day for splitting hairs, not always a wise thing, but sometimes needful.

I do agree with your addition to my thought. When I wrote the line that oldude admired I was thinking of my son. He is autistic, among other "problems". He had just participated in the summer Special Olympics at Southern Connecticut last weekend, bicycle 5K. He finished 4th out of 4 in his heat (albeit the fastest group). It didn't matter, he was happy and smiling over his red ribbon and I could not have been prouder. So the “place” he participated in wasn't what I would want or what he would have chosen, but it can turn out to be a good place after all. In some ways it is sports at its best.

So, I may have dragged us off topic, but a salute to all the volunteers that made that great experience happen for all those special men and women, young and old.

 

[Centerstream]

While I concede that an argument over Klinefelter’s Syndrome is a red herring in a debate over born males identifying as females playing against females, I am not comfortable with a flat out Y = male statement.

If XX = female
And XY = male
Then there is no logic that says XXY is one or the other.

The victims of this disorder are biologically classed as male due to external genitalia. But the muscle mass, hormone output and co-ordination levels are all typically far below the male norm. A decent female athlete would have no difficulty competing against a Klinefelter’s Syndrome person. Which only re-enforces the red herring argument.

Do the two transgender people that competed in the CT races have this syndrome? I was under the impression that they didn't and were biologically "normal" males that identified as females and thus were entitled by the State to compete against real females.

 

[temery]

While I concede that an argument over Klinefelter’s Syndrome is a red herring in a debate over born males identifying as females playing against females, I am not comfortable with a flat out Y = male statement.

If XX = female
And XY = male
Then there is no logic that says XXY is one or the other.

The victims of this disorder are biologically classed as male due to external genitalia. But the muscle mass, hormone output and co-ordination levels are all typically far below the male norm. A decent female athlete would have no difficulty competing against a Klinefelter’s Syndrome person. Which only re-enforces the red herring argument.

XXY is a male with an extra X chromosome.

 

[dogged1]

Do the two transgender people that competed in the CT races have this syndrome? I was under the impression that they didn't and were biologically "normal" males that identified as females and thus were entitled by the State to compete against real females.

I am confused. What CT races are you referring to? The Special Olympics from my other post? Transgender does not necessarily equal Klinefetler's. There are so few in the state of Connecticut i would doubt that they are the two you mentioned.