Transgender HS athletes win All-State honors in women's track

[dogged1]

XXY is a male with an extra X chromosome.

As I conceded, their syndrome has little to do with "born males males identifying as females" competing against females argument. As I conceded, they are biologically classed as males. Your statement is correct and at the same time it obscures truth.

 

[wbbfjlf]

I am confused. What CT races are you referring to? The Special Olympics from my other post? Transgender does not necessarily equal Klinefetler's. There are so few in the state of Connecticut i would doubt that they are the two you mentioned.

Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood swept the competition at the state championships for girls track and field.
link to article: Transgender track stars win state championship, ignites debate over rules

 

[Centerstream]

I am confused. What CT races are you referring to? The Special Olympics from my other post? Transgender does not necessarily equal Klinefetler's. There are so few in the state of Connecticut i would doubt that they are the two you mentioned.

I understand your confusion...I was confusing the OT story with one about the two transgender track runners in CT..

Transgender Track Athlete Wins CT State Championship, Debate Ensues

 

[microfich]

Starting this thread mainly to get some "non-political" thoughts.

Well it got political anyway.

No one should be prohibited from playing at their highest level.
This is as far as I could get to a fair solution without a counter-argument compelling me to think again. I’m thinking this results in lines drawn that still leave many unhappy.

 

[ME Husky Fan]

Let's just cut with the men's vs. ladies distinction and have a free for all. One league, come one come all and then let's see the you know what hit the fan. Could Maya play with the big boys? Could Serena mix it up competitively against Nadal? Jennie Finch against Mookie would be interesting so long as she could pitch fast-pitch.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

A lot of this discussion has really strayed all over the place. Interesting, but -

to the original point. Someones gender identity choices, the challenges of transitioning and all the rest is a valid area of concerns and difficulties. I respect anyone who is able to find happiness in changing their gender identification. But the issue is one of athletic fairness. As has been noted - including in other threads - biologically male individuals simply have different athletic capabilities than biologically born females. And having a biologically born male - and especially one who competed in athletics as a male - compete against females is ultimately unfair to the females.

I really think there are 2 choices - make a ruling based on chromosomes as some have suggested, or have everyone compete together and divide not by gender but skill level / ability.

No thread on this board or anywhere is going to solve this issue, it will be interesting to see how it evolves.

 

[Puppy Love]

Oh man, this subject really makes me crazy. As a woman who is old enough to remember when women as a group had very few opportunities at all, I see this as a step backwards in women's rights. It is well documented scientifically that testosterone provides an athletic advantage. It doesn't take science to see that boys grow bigger, faster and stronger once puberty hits. Further, the advantage in size and strength is greater by the time they are seniors than it was as freshman. This is at the same time that most biological girls are going through the changes of breast growth, menstual periods and changes in body fat composition.

For me, this isn't about whether either biological boy (one of whom who also participated on a boys team this year) should be able to compete. It is about the right of the young women in the state to have fair athletic competition. It baffles me that adults can say to them 'your rights matter less than someone else's'. It is wrong to tell them to compete in races where they will have very little chance of ever winning. This isn't a hypothetical argument. Biological girls (young women) are being hurt. How long before they start saying 'I am not going to participate because it doesn't matter how hard I work.'? I think that the only way that this is resolved fairly is to either not allow the biological boys to compete unless they are on medication to reduce testosterone (similar to the NCAA) or to establish a time handicap that erases the advantage testosterone provides. It doesn't help the transgendered when they get an artificial sense of victory created by winning a race that clearly isn't fair. Right now, no one wins.

 

[dogged1]

Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood swept the competition at the state championships for girls track and field.
link to article: Transgender track stars win state championship, ignites debate over rules

I understand your confusion...I was confusing the OT story with one about the two transgender track runners in CT..

Transgender Track Athlete Wins CT State Championship, Debate Ensues

Thanks for the clarification guys. Just to restate my position, I agree with Temery that a "born male athlete identify as female" should not be allowed to compete against a female born athlete, across the board, but most definitely not in semi contact or contact sports. My only divergent point is that for that less than .1% of humanity that has a genetic "aberration" (no disrespect intended) things are not all black and white,and the presence of a Y chromosome is not the sole definition of male.

It has been an enlightening conversation. Thanks to all.

 

[SVCBeercats]

IOC rules transgender athletes can take part in Olympics without surgery
"Female-to-male athletes can compete ‘without restriction’, while male-to-female athletes must undergo hormone therapy, according to new guidelines"
"Under the previous IOC guidelines, approved in 2003, athletes who transitioned from male to female or vice versa were required to have reassignment surgery followed by at least two years of hormone therapy in order to be eligible to compete. Now, surgery will no longer be required, with female-to-male transgender athletes eligible to take part in men’s competitions “without restriction”. Meanwhile, male-to-female transgender athletes will need to demonstrate that their testosterone level has been below a certain cutoff point for at least one year before their first competition."

Petition would force transgender HS athletes to compete by birth gender
"Now some parents and student-athletes are up in arms. I think it’s unfair to the girls who work really hard to do well and qualify for Opens and New Englands [competitions],” Selina Soule, a sophomore who finished sixth in the 100-meter at the state meet, told the Hartford Courant. “These girls, they’re just coming in and beating everyone.”

As trans high school athletes win state titles, parents petition to ban them

 

[willtalk]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.For me, this isn't about whether either biological boy (one of whom who also participated on a boys team this year) should be able to compete. It is about the right of the young women in the state to have fair athletic competition. It baffles me that adults can say to them 'your rights matter less than someone else's'. It is wrong to tell them to compete in races where they will have very little chance of ever winning. This isn't a hypothetical argument. Biological girls (young women) are being hurt. How long before they start saying 'I am not going to participate because it doesn't matter how hard I work.'? I think that the only way that this is resolved fairly is to either not allow the biological boys to compete unless they are on medication to reduce testosterone (similar to the NCAA) or to establish a time handicap that erases the advantage testosterone provides. It doesn't help the transgendered when they get an artificial sense of victory created by winning a race that clearly isn't fair. Right now, no one wins.

Good post! People seem to have forgotten the purpose of athletics is to enjoy competition, not just to win that is why events are often categorized by age, size and gender. If nothing is done to undo this trend, this will destroy everything gained under Title Nine. It will destroy girls sports and Women's college athletics. Why? To attempt help a small percentage individuals with their identity issues, you throw a vast number of other individuals under the bus. I am sure people who have always disrespected girls and women's athletics are getting a real kick out of this. People in this country seem to believe that everyone can have everything when ever they want. Sometimes the only option involves choices. It sort of reminds me of how sometimes parents become focused on one child of need and in the process ignore and throw their other children under the bus. This usually ends up being to the detriment of even the focused on child.

This is the reason I often object to political correctness. Nothing wrong with the correctness part, but the political part changes too often with time. The focus on correcting one injustice tends to transfer the injustice on to a different group. It seldom results in real justice rather switches the roles of who gets favoritism and who gets the shaft.

 

[Plebe]

I'm going to take a step back from the painting and ponder.

There seem to be two countervailing, and perhaps incompatible, societal forces at play here:
1. The established segregation of athletic competition by sex/gender.
2. The modern paradigm shift—not uniform, but certainly growing—from one of immutable, biologically determined "sex" to one of a less rigid and more multifaceted "gender."

I don't have the estimates handy, but a considerable minority of people simply don't fit neatly, for a variety of reasons, into the traditional male/female gender binary. To say that modern society (among others) has been largely unwelcoming to such people would be an understatement.

How to build a society that is less hostile and more inclusive for "nonbinary" people—e.g., by guaranteeing their right to full participation in all sorts of human endeavors, including athletics—while still preserving the strict binary segregation of sports is, to say the least, a fraught proposition.

I don't claim to have the answers on how to reconcile these forces, but I do know that the way Caster Semenya was treated was downright shameful (to say nothing of the degrading "testing" process and sensationalized publicity she was subjected to). The IAAF stunted the career of an immensely talented runner who was on a clear trajectory to break the world record in the 800 meters. Ultimately, she was targeted because she was too fast and didn't look "feminine" enough.

 

[SVCBeercats]

"Plebe, post: 2753655, member: 6927"] The IAAF stunted the career of an immensely talented runner who was on a clear trajectory to break the world record in the 800 meters. Ultimately, she was targeted because she was too fast and didn't look "feminine" enough.

Actually he is too male as in testosterone. Do as the IOC. "Female-to-male athletes can compete ‘without restriction’, while male-to-female athletes must undergo hormone therapy …" Which drops their testosterone levels down to that of a female. Think you are female, then be one and compete as one.

 

[VAUConnFan]

Back when Renee Richards started competing as a woman, it was strongly believed that she held an unfair advantage. she did not. When Martina Navratilova was dominating women's tennis, there were many who openly believed that being gay gave her an unfair advantage. Thankfully, we all know better. Thankfully also, Ms Navratilova's coming out opened the door for other female athletes. Presently, there are no studies or any empicical evidence that suggests that transgender athletes hold an unfair advantage in sports. Secondly, women's track and field records are not suddenly tumbling down in waves because of the participation of transgender athletes. The records broken in the recent CT state championships were over 20 years old. If there is any area in which a transgender athlete's unfair advantage would be immediately apparent, it would be in field events such as shot put, hammer throw, long jump, high jump, and pole vault. It has not happened.

There is much more to changing gender than a mere declaration. There are hormone treatments, surgeries, psychological evaluations. would there be a discussion about transgender participation if these particular ladies had not won in record setting fashion, or if they had not competed as successfully. While it is understandable that people might get upset about a perceived advantage. Sometimes, the right thing to do is the most painful. Regardless of the pain, the right thing to do is to allow these individuals to be who they are to compete as athletes with those they identify. And kudos to the IOC for getting out in front of this issue. In so doing, the have quite fairly addressed the issue of fairness.

 

[CocoHusky]

Back when Renee Richards started competing as a woman, it was strongly believed that she held an unfair advantage. she did not. When Martina Navratilova was dominating women's tennis, there were many who openly believed that being gay gave her an unfair advantage. Thankfully, we all know better. Thankfully also, Ms Navratilova's coming out opened the door for other female athletes. Presently, there are no studies or any empirical evidence that suggests that transgender athletes hold an unfair advantage in sports. Secondly, women's track and field records are not suddenly tumbling down in waves because of the participation of transgender athletes. The records broken in the recent CT state championships were over 20 years old. If there is any area in which a transgender athlete's unfair advantage would be immediately apparent, it would be in field events such as shot put, hammer throw, long jump, high jump, and pole vault. It has not happened.

There is much more to changing gender than a mere declaration. There are hormone treatments, surgeries, psychological evaluations. would there be a discussion about transgender participation if these particular ladies had not won in record setting fashion, or if they had not competed as successfully. While it is understandable that people might get upset about a perceived advantage. Sometimes, the right thing to do is the most painful. Regardless of the pain, the right thing to do is to allow these individuals to be who they are to compete as athletes with those they identify. And kudos to the IOC for getting out in front of this issue. In so doing, the have quite fairly addressed the issue of fairness.

A women's CT state record that stood for over 20 years is broken by an athlete born male and you don't consider that "empirical evidence" ?
This was a Women's state level meet that was "dominated" (not my words) by 2 transgender athletes. What would qualify as empirical evidence in your opinion?
"Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood dominated the competition at Connecticut’s girls track and field state championships earlier this week. Miller took 1st place in both the 100 and 200 meter dash, while Yearwood finished second in the 100."
Transgender Track Athlete Wins Girls State Championship, Debate Ensues

 

[Plebe]

"Plebe, post: 2753655, member: 6927"] The IAAF stunted the career of an immensely talented runner who was on a clear trajectory to break the world record in the 800 meters. Ultimately, she was targeted because she was too fast and didn't look "feminine" enough.

Actually he is too male as in testosterone. Do as the IOC. "Female-to-male athletes can compete ‘without restriction’, while male-to-female athletes must undergo hormone therapy …" Which drops their testosterone levels down to that of a female. Think you are female, then be one and compete as one.

Semenya is not a male. Nor is she a "male-to-female" athlete.

 

[VAUConnFan]

A women's CT state record that stood for over 20 years is broken by an athlete born male and you don't consider that "empirical evidence" ?
This was a Women's state level meet that was "dominated" (not my words) by 2 transgender athletes. What would qualify as empirical evidence in your opinion?

When/If transgender females overwhelmingly dominate over a cross section of athletic endeavors over a period of time, I will join the growing discriminating/segregating/whining chorus. Until then, I will stand firm with the belief that it is about hormones, not anatomy. Regardless of our opinions, it is a discussion/debate that has to be addressed.

 

[CocoHusky]

When/If transgender females overwhelmingly dominate over a cross section of athletic endeavors over a period of time, I will join the growing discriminating/segregating/whining chorus. Until then, I will stand firm with the belief that it is about hormones, not anatomy. Regardless of our opinions, it is a discussion/debate that has to be addressed.

In the meantime us discriminating segregating, whiners will try and hold the line while you catch up to the unfair realities of today.

 

[SVCBeercats]

Semenya is not a male. Nor is she a "male-to-female" athlete.

Semenya according to leaked information from an IAAF sex verification test lead to her being labelled as having an intersex trait. Which among other things can be internalized gonads. Or it is quite possible Semenya may have hyperandrogenism where the woman produces excessive amounts of male sex hormones such as testosterone. Hyperandrogenism can be innate (genetic) or acquired (drug doping). In any case to eliminate an unnatural advantage due to drug doping or genetics competitors in women's sports take medicine to lower their testosterone levels in order to have a level playing field. Regulating women with clinical and biological hyperandrogenism is an invitation to criticism because biological parameters of sex are not neatly divided into only two categories. There exists a significant variety of mutations. It is, however, the responsibility of the sports-governing bodies to do their best to guarantee a level playing field to all athletes.

 

[SVCBeercats]

When/If transgender females overwhelmingly dominate over a cross section of athletic endeavors over a period of time, I will join the growing discriminating/segregating/whining chorus. Until then, I will stand firm with the belief that it is about hormones, not anatomy. Regardless of our opinions, it is a discussion/debate that has to be addressed.

Why don't you study the available scientific and medical literature in order to base your response in as much fact and as little in opinion as possible or is yours philosophical stance bordering on a religion? When you have completed your study of the available facts then report back.

 

[VAUConnFan]

Why don't you study the available scientific and medical literature in order to base your response in as much fact and as little in opinion as possible or is yours philosophical stance bordering on a religion? When you have completed your study of the available facts then report back.

This thread started over a week ago and immediately peaked my interest. My responses have been late to this thread because of the time and effort spent researching the subject. Weighing in with a minority view against the overwhelming consensus requires nothing short of fact based opinions.

 

[Plebe]

Semenya according to leaked information from an IAAF sex verification test lead to her being labelled as having an intersex trait. Which among other things can be internalized gonads. Or it is quite possible Semenya may have hyperandrogenism where the woman produces excessive amounts of male sex hormones such as testosterone. Hyperandrogenism can be innate (genetic) or acquired (drug doping). In any case to eliminate an unnatural advantage due to drug doping or genetics competitors in women's sports take medicine to lower their testosterone levels in order to have a level playing field. Regulating women with clinical and biological hyperandrogenism is an invitation to criticism because biological parameters of sex are not neatly divided into only two categories. There exists a significant variety of mutations. It is, however, the responsibility of the sports-governing bodies to do their best to guarantee a level playing field to all athletes.

Wait, aren't genetic traits natural by definition?

 

[temery]

Great, I'm all in favor of eliminating any "unnatural advantage due to genetics." Among other things, this will require modifying the skeletal structure of all athletes so that they are all the same height. Because it's undeniable that a seven-foot-tall basketball or volleyball player has "an unnatural genetic advantage" over the five-footer population. Just to name one example.

Yes, being tall in basketball is an advantage. That's why most elite bb players are tall. Marathon runners are skinny, and most gymnasts are short.

The Olympics IS athletes having an unnatural genetic advantage, on display. Darwin would have loved the Olympics.

 

[SVCBeercats]

Wait, aren't genetic traits natural by definition?

no

 

[Plebe]

no

A one-word response. Nice.

<going into teeth-pulling mode> So what is the difference between a "natural" genetic trait and an "unnatural" one?