Transgender HS athletes win All-State honors in women's track

[CocoHusky]

Starting this thread mainly to get some "non-political" thoughts.
A HS athletes born male but identifying as female were given permission to compete in women's events in HS track and field in Alaska. The outcome was somewhat predictable with the transgender athletes winning All-State honors in women's track. Could women's basketball be next?
High School Boy Wins All-State Honors In Girls Track And Field
Personally, I'm very supportive of the ability for every child to have an opportunity to compete, but much more supportive of fairness in the competition. I would not support this decision because I believe it to be unfair on the basis of biology.
What say you?

 

[ed4ourgirls]

I agree with you Coco, but you're fighting political correctness here. "Inclusiveness" and
not having one's feelings hurt outrank fairness in this day and age.

 

[j66kicker]

IMO allowing "athletes born male but identifying as female" to compete against "athletes born female" is total BS. No one with any Y chromosomes belongs playing in girls'/women's individual or team sports.

 

[meyers7]

Yea, not a big fan of that.

 

[Kaizen]

There should have 3 events,
Boy event, Girl event, Whatever else belongs to event.

 

[Purduke]

Well, of course, it is not just in "far off" Alaska. Thought the Courant article last week on the subject regarding CT high school athletes was interesting. Also did not realize that the NCAA already had addressed the issue with the completion of hormonal conversion. That was news to me.

Coaches, Parents Question Policy For High School Transgender Athletes

 

[Sonny44]

Starting this thread mainly to get some "non-political" thoughts.
A HS athletes born male but identifying as female were given permission to compete in women's events in HS track and field in Alaska. The outcome was somewhat predictable with the transgender athletes winning All-State honors in women's track. Could women's basketball be next?
High School Boy Wins All-State Honors In Girls Track And Field
Personally, I'm very supportive of the ability for every child to have an opportunity to compete, but much more supportive of fairness in the competition. I would not support this decision because I believe it to be unfair on the basis of biology.
What say you?

I agree.

 

[VaConnFan11]

Starting this thread mainly to get some "non-political" thoughts.
A HS athletes born male but identifying as female were given permission to compete in women's events in HS track and field in Alaska. The outcome was somewhat predictable with the transgender athletes winning All-State honors in women's track. Could women's basketball be next?
High School Boy Wins All-State Honors In Girls Track And Field
Personally, I'm very supportive of the ability for every child to have an opportunity to compete, but much more supportive of fairness in the competition. I would not support this decision because I believe it to be unfair on the basis of biology.
What say you?

I agree as well.

I don't have any daughters, but if I did, I would be very upset knowing that she had to compete against "boys" in a girls specific event.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

I have a question. If women track athletes took testosterone would that be doping? I ask because:

"Elite female track and field athletes, who naturally produce above-normal amounts of testosterone, received disheartening news Thursday. To be eligible to race in future international competitions, they could be forced to take medication to lower their testosterone levels or, if they don’t want to alter their body’s chemistry, compete against men.

The International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) announcednew regulations that could prevent female athletes who have a condition called hyperandrogenism from competing in events ranging from 400 meters to the mile unless they reduce their blood testosterone level by taking hormonal contraceptives, such as birth control"

Women with elevated levels of testosterone, amounts between five and 10 nanomoles per liter, are believed to have a competitive advantage, as studies show they have a 4.4 percent increase in muscle mass, a 12 to 26 percent increase in muscle strength and a 7.8 percent increase in hemoglobin, which transports oxygen to red blood cells, according to IAAF documents."


Female athletes with naturally high testosterone levels face hurdles under new IAAF rules

"It’s no secret that women athletes have widely abused male hormones (androgens) over the past few decades, say the researchers. Of 296 elite athletes serving a doping ban as of December 2016 under IAAF rules, 116 were women, 64 of whom had tested positive for androgens."

Naturally produced testosterone gives female athletes "significant" competitive edge | BMJ

What you call yourself should have nothing to do with fairness and common sense in sports.

 

[bballnut90]

We’ll be seeing more and more of this unless people come up with rules that prevent born males competing as females. Another example is Tiffany Abreu, who is a transfemale (not sure if that’s the right term...born male, now is female) volleyball player in Brazil. As a male she was a low/mid level pro player and at 33 she is now dominating one of the best women’s leagues in the world. Every team in her league petitioned that she shouldn’t be able to compete, last I heard she’s still competing and breaking records.

Another example is trans MMA fighter Fallon Fox who significantly injured an opponent during a fight.

I’m all for equality and not excluding trans people, but born men have different physical abilities than individuals who are born women and it just isn’t fair for trans females to compete with women who were born female. I don’t know what the perfect solution is or if one exists, but the issue needs to be addressed sooner than later.

 

[oldude]

This is an extremely complex question. World and Olympic 800 meter champion, Caster Semenya from South Africa has a higher than normal level of testosterone. It’s a condition known as DSD. In all other biological ways, Semenya is a woman. The question for the IAAF was does Semenya’s higher testosterone level make her a man, or is it simply a god given advantage like size, speed or athleticism. In the end, the IAAF ruled that Semenya is a woman and she was allowed to compete as a woman.

I also seem to recall another woman’s track athlete from either Poland or Czechoslovakia who competed in the Olympics many years ago and won a couple gold medals. As I recall, she had an extra chromosome. She too was allowed to compete as a woman.

I guess we could say it’s unfair, but these women did not ask to be born with these conditions, and asking them to compete as men would certainly be unfair.

 

[JustinesGuy]

Starting this thread mainly to get some "non-political" thoughts.
A HS athletes born male but identifying as female were given permission to compete in women's events in HS track and field in Alaska. The outcome was somewhat predictable with the transgender athletes winning All-State honors in women's track. Could women's basketball be next?
High School Boy Wins All-State Honors In Girls Track And Field
Personally, I'm very supportive of the ability for every child to have an opportunity to compete, but much more supportive of fairness in the competition. I would not support this decision because I believe it to be unfair on the basis of biology.
What say you?

I can't believe it, wait for it.. I agree with you 100%.
This world is changing profoundly and fast! Did you see there will no longer be a swim suit portion of the Miss America Pageant because its sexist??!! I mean really? Participation trophies, heightened PC, IMHO its just all going a bit too far.

 

[Woof 101]

There should have 3 events,
Boy event, Girl event, Whatever else belongs to event.

Sad but true...My main curiosity is at what age does a child know they want to be a different sex? Before they are a freshman??? At what age does a parent agree this is the proper path in life???
What is happening as far as sports competition is VERY unfair...

 

[sarals24]

I can't believe it, wait for it.. I agree with you 100%.
This world is changing profoundly and fast! Did you see there will no longer be a swim suit portion of the Miss America Pageant because its sexist??!! I mean really? Participation trophies, heightened PC, IMHO its just all going a bit too far.

Swimsuit competitions are gross and degrading. It's not going too far, it's probably not far enough.

 

[Magy Cannon]

If you got a Y you belong in the men's division. Natural elevated testosterone levels should be ok. Can testing determine if the elevated levels are natural or drug induced? No one should be forced to take hormones to compete.

 

[JustinesGuy]

Swimsuit competitions are gross and degrading. It's not going too far, it's probably not far enough.[/QUOTE

Swimsuit competitions are gross and degrading. It's not going too far, it's probably not far enough.

They should probably just get rid of the whole thing. And there are certainly better ways to give out scholarship money to young women than having them parade around in evening gowns, and watch them attempt to answer complex questions about major policy and social issues, which policymakers struggle with for years, on the fly and in a matter of seconds.

Regarding degrading - I guess degrading gets big ratings. The bachelor has been on for years.

 

[willtalk]

I believe this subject was discussed in a past thread. What I remarked back then was that this was opening a big can of worms. Also it something wasn't done it would end up ruining every advance made through Title Nine and totally ruin women's sports. People just do not seem to consider the consequence of precedence. If what you were when you were born doesn't matter, why should the date you were born matter as well. The consequences are endless.

 

[AllAmerRedHeads]

I saw this issue happen with a friend of mine a few years ago. She plays in senior wbb games. they won national championships about 6 years ago. the following year they played a team out around the rocky mountains. 2 of the players were transgender and she told me both played college basketball (did not say division) as male.

They not only got beat bad on the court, but physically pretty banged up as well.

Will be very interesting to see how all of this moves along in the next couple of decades.

The old Olympic Story. I believe you are referring to around 1934. the US had a runner named Helen Stephens. She was the fastest runner around and many believed she was a man in fact the current world champion from Poland. Helen, of what i remember reading had to prove she was a woman. which, she was. She actually went on to become an All American Red Heads for a season.

However, and very ironically, the Poland woman world champion ending up dying in a tragic way. Upon autopsy, it was found out, she had the anatomy of a man.

there is a book on Helen and pretty interesting reading time piece

 

[oldude]

Agree with most who make the point that it is patently unfair for transgender athletes who are born as males and either have surgery to become women or simply identify as women to then compete as women.

But that does not address the numerous instances where some physiological condition from birth, either high testosterone levels, an extra chromosome or some other condition, create an individual like Caster Semenya with a natural physiological advantage over other female athletes, but not over male athletes.

In such instances, there are several difficult choices: let the athlete who in every other way identifies as a woman, compete as a woman, or deny her that opportunity, forcing her to compete where she is physically overmatched against men, or more likely, denying her the opportunity to compete.

 

[temery]

Allowing anyone born a boy, to play girls sports, is beyond ridiculous. Play coed intramurals and stop turning youth sports into a joke.

 

[Siestakeyfan]

There should have 3 events,
Boy event, Girl event, Whatever else belongs to event.

America is on a DANGEROUS [ ] path ! Testosterone - muscles etc are REALITY ! Messing with Mother nature is a LOSING game filled with various potential disasters.

 

[Lawrence]

Starting this thread mainly to get some "non-political" thoughts.
A HS athletes born male but identifying as female were given permission to compete in women's events in HS track and field in Alaska. The outcome was somewhat predictable with the transgender athletes winning All-State honors in women's track. Could women's basketball be next?
High School Boy Wins All-State Honors In Girls Track And Field
Personally, I'm very supportive of the ability for every child to have an opportunity to compete, but much more supportive of fairness in the competition. I would not support this decision because I believe it to be unfair on the basis of biology.
What say you?

It is not fair to the other athletes...enuf.

 

[Blakeon18]

A side issue here: in some states....like Massachusetts....if there is no girls' team in a sport the MIAA requires that a girl must be allowed to be on the boys' team. No tennis team for girls....she must be allowed to at least try out for the boys' team...presumably make or not based on ability.
Articles have shown that all kinds of folks applaud when the girl does something well...kick a field goal for the football team etc. In fact it is a nice warm and fuzzy story.

Of course the rule also goes the other way. No boys' tennis team...he must be allowed to try out for the girls team. Why? Because the MIAA says so. The same folks who applaud the girl playing football tend to castigate a boy playing field hockey.

A few years ago Springfield Central didn't have enough boys for a tennis team...one guy made the previously all-girl team. I remember that his teammates seemed to accept him. He was good not fantastic. The team made the state tourney....in part thanks to his fine play. In the lead-up to the tourney the MIAA said that he couldn't play....period. Wouldn't be fair. Central objected....they had been forced to include the boy by that same organization. The MIAA said that if they insisted on including him the team would have to play in the boys' division. Of course they hadn't qualified for that division and in fact hadn't played a boys' team all year long.

Good intentions by the MIAA? Highly probable. Leading to absurdity....no doubt.

The Ct. high school association allows a transgender girl to compete on girls' teams with the SOLE requirement that the kid announce her self identity as a girl. That would take huge guts....imo....but to me it just isn't sufficient or fair to other members of that team or their opponents.

 

[bballnut90]

A side issue here: in some states....like Massachusetts....if there is no girls' team in a sport the MIAA requires that a girl must be allowed to be on the boys' team. No tennis team for girls....she must be allowed to at least try out for the boys' team...presumably make or not based on ability.
Articles have shown that all kinds of folks applaud when the girl does something well...kick a field goal for the football team etc. In fact it is a nice warm and fuzzy story.

Of course the rule also goes the other way. No boys' tennis team...he must be allowed to try out for the girls team. Why? Because the MIAA says so. The same folks who applaud the girl playing football tend to castigate a boy playing field hockey.

A few years ago Springfield Central didn't have enough boys for a tennis team...one guy made the previously all-girl team. I remember that his teammates seemed to accept him. He was good not fantastic. The team made the state tourney....in part thanks to his fine play. In the lead-up to the tourney the MIAA said that he couldn't play....period. Wouldn't be fair. Central objected....they had been forced to include the boy by that same organization. The MIAA said that if they insisted on including him the team would have to play in the boys' division. Of course they hadn't qualified for that division and in fact hadn't played a boys' team all year long.

Good intentions by the MIAA? Highly probable. Leading to absurdity....no doubt.

The Ct. high school association allows a transgender girl to compete on girls' teams with the SOLE requirement that the kid announce her self identity as a girl. That would take huge guts....imo....but to me it just isn't sufficient or fair to other members of that team or their opponents.

Boys for the most part are biologically taller, stronger, faster, and overall more athletic than their female counterparts. Considering almost all sports require some sort of physical ability, it’s unfair to mix the two when 1 biologically has an advantage over the other. Being a bio female playing against men is usually an uphill battle while being a bio male playing against females is not.

 

[Centerstream]

I think if a bb player, such as LeBron, was to admit that he/she identified as a female and signed a contract with a WNBA team, that would not be a good thing. But could it happen?
Or what would have happened if Bruce Jenner had come out in his pre Olympic days? Would he have been allowed to compete against female athletes?

 

[oldude]

Guys, this is not a black and white issue. There appears to be a general unwillingness to discuss, or ignorance of DSD (Disorders of Sex Development), which develop before birth, usually involving chromosomal or testosterone abnormalities.

So let me personalize it. Many of us, myself included, take great joy in having children who compete in sports. Imagine having a daughter competing in sports who was told she was not a girl and could no longer compete with other girls. How would you console your daughter facing the heartbreak and humiliation of that decision?

 

[oldude]

If you got a Y you belong in the men's division. Natural elevated testosterone levels should be ok. Can testing determine if the elevated levels are natural or drug induced? No one should be forced to take hormones to compete.

Unfortunately, there are some individuals that are born with XXY chromosomes. Beyond that, natural testosterone is somewhat different than synthetic testosterone which can in fact be determined during drug testing.

 

[j66kicker]

Unfortunately, there are some individuals that are born with XXY chromosomes. Beyond that, natural testosterone is somewhat different than synthetic testosterone which can in fact be determined during drug testing.

Some of the illegal (and legal) PEDs just cause the body to increase its natural testosterone levels. So now one of the tests in some (male) sports - baseball in particular - is for natural testosterone levels. If the tested level is beyond a certain defined point deemed unreasonably high, then you fail. MLB players and their personal trainers have become very good at keeping their "natural" testosterone levels just under the legal limit.

 

[oldude]

Some of the illegal (and legal) PEDs just cause the body to increase its natural testosterone levels. So now one of the tests in some (male) sports - baseball in particular - is for natural testosterone levels. If the tested level is beyond a certain defined point deemed unreasonably high, then you fail. MLB players and their personal trainers have become very good at keeping their "natural" testosterone levels just under the legal limit.

I know it’s a bit of a shell game, but Semenya was given a battery of tests which ultimately determined that she was one of those rare individuals with a naturally elevated level of testosterone.

 

[dogged1]

Guys, this is not a black and white issue. There appears to be a general unwillingness to discuss, or ignorance of DSD (Disorders of Sex Development), which develop before birth, usually involving chromosomal or testosterone abnormalities.

So let me personalize it. Many of us, myself included, take great joy in having children who compete in sports. Imagine having a daughter competing in sports who was told she was not a girl and could no longer compete with other girls. How would you console your daughter facing the heartbreak and humiliation of that decision?

A thoughtful question with a compassionate point of view. I will try to respond in a similar manner, but with a slightly different take.

Imagine a typical young woman in high school who plays a semi contact sport (field hockey, basketball, soccer), weighs in at 110 – 120 lbs. at 5’4” to 5’6” with the muscle mass, strength, and speed commensurate with a top notch female athlete. Now she has to go up against a born male identifying as female athlete, weighing in at 160 to 180, 5' 8"to 6'0", male muscle mass ratio, strength and speed of a top notch male athlete. She will be knocked down repeatedly, outmuscled repeatedly and beaten to ball/goal over and over again. She will be beaten and humiliated. How would that father console his daughter, possibly from a hospital bed? Is she better off for having competed in an unwinnable game, or should that game never have taken place?

Setting aside scenarios that can play on our emotions, what your post is looking for is fairness for all. In the real world that is an unattainable goal. Within each gender hormone output of an individual will like many traits follow a bell curve. Life isn’t fair to the males or females who fall to the far left of that curve nor, sometimes, to those who fall on the far right of the curve.

I have sympathy and respect for anyone who is hormonally an outlier. That would make the already difficult teenage years near impossible. I also have sympathy and respect for any who was born to one gender, but believes they are the other. I can’t imagine how difficult that life must be.

But I also know that I would not want my daughter competing against a born male in a semi-contact or contact sport.