Top Ten All-Americans

[stwainfan]

I don't think this has ever been in dispute. But that is a big when.

She is playing healthy this year. Her scoring and assist are up this year. I think she is starting to really starting to playing more up to her ability

 

[Zorro]

It is an odd thing about Pheesa, Lou and Gabby; the three of them on the court together are MUCH more than the sum of their parts! When any of the tree is out, the machine wobbles. Of course, it wobbles more when Pheesa is out, but without Lou or Gabby it still wobbles.

Of course, Lou and Pheesa have been playing together for quite a while, including the 3x3 competition, so it is not surprising that they are able to anticipate each other's moves the way they do. And Pheesa and Gabby have developed a synergy that is, if anything, even more remarkable. They seem to know where each other are and are going to be at all times.

This is why it is going to be so difficult to determine which, if any, of them make first team AA this season. They are so much a unit that it is hard to pick any of the three out as more deserving than the others. That sort of thing is, of course, endemic to UConn wbb, but this year it seems even more pronounced, at least to me.
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[easttexastrash]

Just on the basis of what you're saying, because I haven't watched much of Baylor. Why is Kalani Brown only getting 20 minutes a game if she's such a player. Doesn't it suggest there's some kind of problem, whether it be she is apt to foul like crazy or Kim doesn't feel exactly as you do???? I'm just trying to be the devils advocate here!

It's called depth. Remember what that is??????

 

[CocoHusky]

Looking at Brown's numbers and the number of minutes she averages to me she's a no brainer. Nevertheless .

I have to disagree. The number of minutes played should not be factored in favor of Brown.
Kalani Brown averaged 20.3 Minutes per game and put up 15 PPG. Anigwe of Cal 30.7 minutes per game and averaged 21PPG. If you do a linear projection Kalani scores .73 points per minute played. Anigwe scores .68 points per minute played. Whatever the reason , conditioning, better player on the roster , stupid coach, Brown played in only ~half of her teams' minutes- AA should be playing in more than half the team's minutes IMO.

 

[easttexastrash]

I have to disagree. The number of minutes played should not be factored in favor of Brown.
Kalani Brown averaged 20.3 Minutes per game and put up 15 PPG. Anigwe of Cal 30.7 minutes per game and averaged 21PPG. If you do a linear projection Kalani scores .73 points per minute played. Anigwe scores .68 points per minute played. Whatever the reason , conditioning, better player on the roster , stupid coach, Brown played in only ~half of her teams' minutes- AA should be playing in more than half the team's minutes IMO.

Hopefully Baylor continues to have such depth at the post position that none of their players ever qualify for being an AA.

And technically, half of her team's minutes would be 100 per game. Is that what you are asking that she play to qualify as an AA?

 

[bags27]

I will present these stats and you can tell me how Wilson is having a MUCH better season than Kalani Brown.

Minutes per Game
Brown 20.3
Wilson 27.2

Points Per Game
Brown 15.0
Wilson 16.9

Rebounds per Game
Brown 8.3
Wilson 7.2

FG%
Brown 65.9
Wilson 58.4

FT%
Brown 72.1
Wilson 71.4

Blocks
Brown 54 (568 minutes played)
Wilson 53 (653 minutes played)

Assists
Brown 38 (568 minutes played)
Wilson 37 (653 minutes played)

Turnovers
Brown 46
Wilson 51

Steals
Brown 9
Wilson 26

Thanks for this. And it's my impression that Brown has been playing better as the season's gone on, becoming far more dominant lately.

 

[bags27]

Problem is she's wildly inconsistent and hasn't exhibited good basketball IQ. No chance at AA this year even if she is one of the more gifted players in the country. She's also a high risk high reward kind of player in the draft. Her game will be well suited for the pros, but she is wildly inconsistent and could easily be out of the league in just a few years. She could also develop into an Angel Mccoughtry caliber player if she'll work her butt off and improve her shooting/IQ. If I'm a GM of a good team, I'm not risking my pick on her. I'd opt for several others ahead of her.

I agree with a lot of what you say, and I'm a dyed in the wool critic of DD (mainly because I believe she lost a great opportunity to be a lot better when she turned down UConn). But I have to admit that lately she has been much more consistent and has essentially been carrying her team.

 

[CocoHusky]

Hopefully Baylor continues to have such depth at the post position that none of their players ever qualify for being an AA.
And technically, half of her team's minutes would be 100 per game. Is that what you are asking that she play to qualify as an AA?

Did you really throw 100 minutes per half out just now!? Try dividing by 5-as in the number of players!
Yes, if Baylor continues to play Kalani Brown 20 minutes per game it will ( and should) hurt her AA chances.
Brown does not have AA credentials this year because she averages 20.3 minutes/game.

 

[easttexastrash]

Did you really throw 100 minutes per half out just now!? Try dividing by 5-as in the number of players!
Yes, if Baylor continues to play Kalani Brown 20 minutes per game it will ( and should) hurt her AA chances.
Brown does not have AA credentials this year because she averages 20.3 minutes/game.

You said "half of the team's minutes." I was just picking on you for saying "half of the TEAM'S minutes," which equals 100 minutes per game.

And if you disqualify her for only playing 20 minutes per game but still having equal or better stats to other candidates that is certainly your opinion to have. She is the best post player in the nation even if she is not an AA.

 

[JordyG]

I have to disagree. The number of minutes played should not be factored in favor of Brown.
Kalani Brown averaged 20.3 Minutes per game and put up 15 PPG. Anigwe of Cal 30.7 minutes per game and averaged 21PPG. If you do a linear projection Kalani scores .73 points per minute played. Anigwe scores .68 points per minute played. Whatever the reason , conditioning, better player on the roster , stupid coach, Brown played in only ~half of her teams' minutes- AA should be playing in more than half the team's minutes IMO.

Well also in the Baylor/Cal consideration is the fact that Mulkey has a far deeper bench as she tries to juggle minutes. This aside from the factor that Baylor played the far better competition than Cal or Washington and is the far better team than either. Lumping in those factors I still say Brown is a no brainer over Osahor or Anigwe minutes or not. Beside, my eye test tells me as a WCBB center I'd rather face either than Brown.

 

[bballnut90]

I agree with a lot of what you say, and I'm a dyed in the wool critic of DD (mainly because I believe she lost a great opportunity to be a lot better when she turned down UConn). But I have to admit that lately she has been much more consistent and has essentially been carrying her team.

She has been much better this year. I still think she takes bad shots and has a very mediocre midrange/perimeter game. She can improve this, but she is fantastic when she drives the ball to the basket or is on the fast break.

It's just hard to fathom how a team with her, Russell (who is very very good) and Nared (also very good) has been so mediocre all season. I'd rather take a good player from a top program who has shown consistent development and improvement than a player who like Diamond who has all the talent in the world, but her team has underperformed and she hasn't shown big strides of improvement through 3 years.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Well also in the Baylor/Cal consideration is the fact that Mulkey has a far deeper bench as she tries to juggle minutes. This aside from the factor that Baylor played the far better competition than Cal or Washington and is the far better team than either. Lumping in those factors I still say Brown is a no brainer over Osahor or Anigwe minutes or not. Beside, my eye test tells me as a WCBB center I'd rather face either than Brown.

Osahor is a better passer and perimeter shooter than Brown. This is also a no brainer. She's much more versatile than Brown and presents some match up issues for defenses that Brown doesn't. Not saying she's a better player, but throughout this thread Osahor has been mostly overlooked and underrated. She is a very good player that does a lot of things well and is a nightmare matchup for most defenses. And she is leading the nation in rebounding by a wide margin.

 

[Dillon77]

If I'm looking at a/a's now - I see 9 that should be-- don't know the tenth. Not in order:

Plum
Collier
Gabby
Lou
Wilson
AJones (Baylor)
BJones (Md)
Mitchell
Turner

I think UCONN deserves 3- we have the number 1 schedule and beat all comers. It's not like one player was a giant - or the main go-to or was dominant nearly all the time.

Don't know the 10th but will be disappointed if all 3 don't get in the top ten.

I generally prefer to hold off on these until after the whole kit and kaboodle because I tend to think the cream rises to the top during the pressure games. A few thoughts:

- I have a hard time believing any organization is going to put three players from any one team on a Top Ten list (unless they're all seniors and even then....). In the case of UConn, KLS gets one nod and in every game I've seen, Gabby W. is a/"the" difference maker.
- Isn't being a good player being a good team member? That's one reason why we consider all three Huskies. In the same vein, it's why I can't consider DeShields that highly, whne she, Nared and Russell can put TN on a more consistent path.
- Love Lexi Brown, but how do you separate her from Greenwell? They're both essential to Duke.
- Mitchell is a slightly more consistent version of DeShields to me. She takes an awful amount of shots and time to get what she has to.
Can't doubt the talent but wonder about the method.
- Like what Flaherty and Jankoska are doing in their respective Michigan universities.
- Sydney Wiese is a really solid player. Top 10? Hmmm. But really solid.
- I'm a Domer -- not a particular homer -- but I've really gotten to appreciate what Lindsay Allen does for the team, not only in assists and field generalship, but she runs a good fast break and rebounds exceptionally well for a 5'8"person.
- Have not made up my mind on which big(s) I like best this year. Want to see the tournaments.

 

[JordyG]

Osahor is a better passer and perimeter shooter than Brown. This is also a no brainer. She's much more versatile than Brown and presents some match up issues for defenses that Brown doesn't. Not saying she's a better player, but throughout this thread Osahor has been mostly overlooked and underrated. She is a very good player that does a lot of things well and is a nightmare matchup for most defenses. And she is leading the nation in rebounding by a wide margin.

Osahor is a fine passer no doubt. Yet she plays on the high post often, a place Brown doesn't play as much. Brown is a fine FT shooter and that usually translates into having a fine outside shot, but in Mulkey's system it isn't necessary for her to shoot outside. Also as I've said, Brown has faced the far superior opposition than Osahor. If they were to play head to head I like my chances with Brown over Osahor, and for all of Osahor's versatility in a fast paced game again, Brown all day.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Osahor is a fine passer no doubt. Yet she plays on the high post often, a place Brown doesn't play as much. Brown is a fine FT shooter and that usually translates into having a fine outside shot, but in Mulkey's system it isn't necessary for her to shoot outside. Also as I've said, Brown has faced the far superior opposition than Osahor. If they were to play head to head I like my chances with Brown over Osahor, and for all of Osahor's versatility in a fast paced game again, Brown all day.

Far superior opposition? That seems like an exaggeration. Some tough OOC opponents like UConn, DePaul, Ohio St. and Tennessee plus UCLA, who UW played twice in conference. Some really really fluffy creampuffs in their too. Houston Baptist, Mississippi Valley St., SE Louisiana, Kent St., Abilene Christian, Texas St., Winthrop. Wow, that is really tough. Those are some opponents Maryland would approve of. Big 12 vs. Pac 12 conference schedules are about a wash, I'm not gonna give Baylor any credit for tougher competition there.

UW's OOC doesn't contain as many top teams as Baylor's, but they did play Notre Dame and Missouri. Colorado St., Boise St. and BYU aren't chopped liver. Their creampuffs aren't any worse and I'd argue probably not quite as bad as Baylor's. Not seeing this far superior opposition you are claiming.

I went thru and looked at the records of all of UW and Baylor's OOC opponents. Winthrop is quite possibly the WORST team in the country. 1 win in a crappy conference and 2 wins overall. Mississippi Valley St., SE Louisianan and Houston Baptist are all also abysmal. Baylor played more high end teams than UW but they also played more bottom of the barrel teams. Basically your argument comes down to playing 3 more games against good teams in OOC, while ignoring how many truly awful teams they played in OOC. Over a 30 game schedule, that is in no way "far superior competition."

 

[easttexastrash]

Osahor is a better passer and perimeter shooter than Brown. This is also a no brainer. She's much more versatile than Brown and presents some match up issues for defenses that Brown doesn't. Not saying she's a better player, but throughout this thread Osahor has been mostly overlooked and underrated. She is a very good player that does a lot of things well and is a nightmare matchup for most defenses. And she is leading the nation in rebounding by a wide margin.

I have not said anything negative about Osahor, nor will I because she is a great player and you make some very good points. Plus, just watching her shoot that three pointer makes her one of my favorite players. I have seen her story and love what she represents...she is what WCBB is all about. Some of these players go through great struggles and to see them persevere makes me even a bigger fan.

It is truly hard to compare Brown with Osahor because Osahor is really a forward, IMO. She spends most of her time away from the basket, which works will for Washington as it frees up the lane for Plum. They are one of the best tandems in the country, no doubt.

 

[nwhoopfan]

And you're making my point for me as far as Osahor playing the high post. She's equally dangerous/effective in the high post or low post, gives the defense a whole lot more they have to game plan for. Osahor is shooting .396 behind the arc and has hit 44 3's on the season. Brown hasn't attempted a single shot behind the arc. That means Osahor can pull an interior defender completely out of the lane and open things up for teammates, something Brown either doesn't or can't do. Osahor is also pretty good attacking off the dribble from the top of the key, something I doubt Brown does. Brown might be the best player in the country as a purely post up scorer, but Osahor does so many other things that Brown doesn't or can't do, don't see how you completely ignore that.

 

[easttexastrash]

Far superior opposition? That seems like an exaggeration. Some tough OOC opponents like UConn, DePaul, Ohio St. and Tennessee plus UCLA, who UW played twice in conference. Some really really fluffy creampuffs in their too. Houston Baptist, Mississippi Valley St., SE Louisiana, Kent St., Abilene Christian, Texas St., Winthrop. Wow, that is really tough. Those are some opponents Maryland would approve of. Big 12 vs. Pac 12 conference schedules are about a wash, I'm not gonna give Baylor any credit for tougher competition there.

UW's OOC doesn't contain as many top teams as Baylor's, but they did play Notre Dame and Missouri. Colorado St., Boise St. and BYU aren't chopped liver. Their creampuffs aren't any worse and I'd argue probably not quite as bad as Baylor's. Not seeing this far superior opposition you are claiming.

I went thru and looked at the records of all of UW and Baylor's OOC opponents. Winthrop is quite possibly the WORST team in the country. 1 win in a crappy conference and 2 wins overall. Mississippi Valley St., SE Louisianan and Houston Baptist are all also abysmal. Baylor played more high end teams than UW but they also played more bottom of the barrel teams. Basically your argument comes down to playing 3 more games against good teams in OOC, while ignoring how many truly awful teams they played in OOC. Over a 30 game schedule, that is in no way "far superior competition."

I agree with your assessment. The "your schedule sucks" routine is overplayed, IMO. Some of these players would have better numbers if they were playing better opponents because they would be on the floor more. Brown is going to put up better numbers against a team like Texas than she will a team like Winthrop because she is going to get more minutes and will still be the biggest and most difficult to stop player on the floor.

 

[easttexastrash]

And you're making my point for me as far as Osahor playing the high post. She's equally dangerous/effective in the high post or low post, gives the defense a whole lot more they have to game plan for. Osahor is shooting .396 behind the arc and has hit 44 3's on the season. Brown hasn't attempted a single shot behind the arc. That means Osahor can pull an interior defender completely out of the lane and open things up for teammates, something Brown either doesn't or can't do. Osahor is also pretty good attacking off the dribble from the top of the key, something I doubt Brown does. Brown might be the best player in the country as a purely post up scorer, but Osahor does so many other things that Brown doesn't or can't do, don't see how you completely ignore that.

Well, that is good, because my goal was to confirm the point that you are making. In case you missed it, I am agreeing with you.

 

[nwhoopfan]

I have not said anything negative about Osahor, nor will I because she is a great player and you make some very good points. Plus, just watching her shoot that three pointer makes her one of my favorite players. I have seen her story and love what she represents...she is what WCBB is all about. Some of these players go through great struggles and to see them persevere makes me even a bigger fan.

It is truly hard to compare Brown with Osahor because Osahor is really a forward, IMO. She spends most of her time away from the basket, which works will for Washington as it frees up the lane for Plum. They are one of the best tandems in the country, no doubt.

Thank you, you are approaching this much more reasonably than your fellow Baylor fan.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Well, that is good, because my goal was to confirm the point that you are making. In case you missed it, I am agreeing with you.

Sorry for the confusion, that was a response to Jordy, not you. Should have quoted the previous post to make that apparent.

 

[easttexastrash]

Thank you, you are approaching this much more reasonably than your fellow Baylor fan.

Jordy, when did you become a Baylor fan?

 

[easttexastrash]

Thank you, you are approaching this much more reasonably than your fellow Baylor fan.

Each players add value that the other may not, and the coaches use them to take advantage of their strengths. Brown might not fit in as well in the Wash system as Osahor does, and vice versa. They are both incredible players and I would be fine with either being listed as an AA.

 

[Plebe]

I agree with your assessment. The "your schedule sucks" routine is overplayed, IMO. Some of these players would have better numbers if they were playing better opponents because they would be on the floor more. Brown is going to put up better numbers against a team like Texas than she will a team like Winthrop because she is going to get more minutes and will still be the biggest and most difficult to stop player on the floor.

I'm not sure why or how this conversation turned into a duel between Osahor and K. Brown. First of all, I've never heard that the All-American lists have quotas per position. They might both be selected, or neither might be selected. Also, there are many ways to slice the analysis. Brown's numbers are astounding when you consider her relatively limited minutes, but one might also rationalize that the other way by saying that she's less critical to her team's success because she spends less time on the court. There's little doubt that Baylor could more easily compensate for Brown's absence than Washington could for Osahor's.

 

[CocoHusky]

I'll give you credit for consistent Baylor Fandom:

Yes, Alexis Jones, who is going to be the best PG in the nation this season, IMO.

She (Kalani Brown) is the best post player in the nation even if she is not an AA.

You are however consistently wrong on both counts. The best PG in the nation this year has been Kelsey Plum. The best post player in the nation has been Brionna Jones.

 

[easttexastrash]

I'll give you credit for consistent Baylor Fandom:







You are however consistently wrong on both counts. The best PG in the nation this year has been Kelsey Plum. The best post player in the nation has been Brionna Jones.

Hey, I have spent most of my life being consistently wrong...why should I change now?

 

[watanabe]

Hey, I have spent most of my life being consistently wrong...why should I change now?

Me too!!!
I TOTALLY agree with you on that point. I like to call it "Humble arrogance."

 

[hoophuskee]

I generally prefer to hold off on these until after the whole kit and kaboodle because I tend to think the cream rises to the top during the pressure games. A few thoughts:

- I have a hard time believing any organization is going to put three players from any one team on a Top Ten list (unless they're all seniors and even then....). In the case of UConn, KLS gets one nod and in every game I've seen, Gabby W. is a/"the" difference maker.
- Isn't being a good player being a good team member? That's one reason why we consider all three Huskies. In the same vein, it's why I can't consider DeShields that highly, whne she, Nared and Russell can put TN on a more consistent path.
- Love Lexi Brown, but how do you separate her from Greenwell? They're both essential to Duke.
- Mitchell is a slightly more consistent version of DeShields to me. She takes an awful amount of shots and time to get what she has to.
Can't doubt the talent but wonder about the method.
- Like what Flaherty and Jankoska are doing in their respective Michigan universities.
- Sydney Wiese is a really solid player. Top 10? Hmmm. But really solid.
- I'm a Domer -- not a particular homer -- but I've really gotten to appreciate what Lindsay Allen does for the team, not only in assists and field generalship, but she runs a good fast break and rebounds exceptionally well for a 5'8"person.
- Have not made up my mind on which big(s) I like best this year. Want to see the tournaments.

Well I'm having a hard time believing that if two years ago UCONN had sr KML and two jr's in top ten and just because this year they are one year younger so some get disqualified not for what they did on the court but because some voter oversteps their bounds and thinks it' okay to not put the more deserving players on the list regardless of age. The better player - the one that wins too-- if stats are similar -- should get in. Not give it to someone because of age.

I didn't hold off mentioning the 9 players because barring a disaster and with primarily two games left- I think the 9 I mentioned deserve to be in. And the UCONN team is undefeated. Undefeated IS special (though UCONN ahs made it almost ordinary. It shouldn't be thought of that way. What they are doing IS exceptional and should trump age.) . For a team like ND to have the same number of a/a's on the team (you mentioned Allen) after UCONN beat ND and has THREE less losses for a super squad undefeated team- I find it ridiculous for any team with 3 more losses after they've been beaten by UCONN to have the same number as UCONN unless two players have MUCH BETTER stats. During the reg season the UCONN team and players were superior to ND. So the committee is supposed to give a/a status because of age? IMO that is ridiculous. Performance gets thrown to the wind even though the undefeated team is doing something historic and the players have performed at a superior level? THAT is to be ignored because of age?

As far as the bigs, you say you want to wiat for tournament? Yet I thought selecting is done before the tourney?

When it comes to Mitchell- I think we agree. I prefer the UCONN/ND style. But the style Ohio State plays-- they only lost 5 games. To a certain point winning has to count unless stats are super supreme. That's why for example imo Peterson from Cuse shouldn't sniff 1st team nor should the center from the pac-10 whose team ahs about a .500 record. I'm guessing you don't care for the style. But with that said- just because you and I have a personal preference of a style shouldn't mean we disqualify a player we don't care for -- if they are winning. There are different ways/styles to win and be highly successful- not just the style way we prefer the most.

 

[hoophuskee]

I'm not sure why or how this conversation turned into a duel between Osahor and K. Brown. First of all, I've never heard that the All-American lists have quotas per position. They might both be selected, or neither might be selected. Also, there are many ways to slice the analysis. Brown's numbers are astounding when you consider her relatively limited minutes, but one might also rationalize that the other way by saying that she's less critical to her team's success because she spends less time on the court. There's little doubt that Baylor could more easily compensate for Brown's absence than Washington could for Osahor's.

Yet a point being brought up where is that UCONN can't get 3 a/a's because they are in part they are too young.

 

[nwhoopfan]

There is no Pac 10 conference. It has been the Pac 12 since 2011. They changed the name to reflect the number of member schools, unlike the Big 10 and Big 12.