OT: Tom "Terrific" Seaver Has Dementia

[Madmannsucks]

Though he was 5-7 for the Red Sox back in '86 he was pitching okay. I would have much preferred Seaver starting playoff games instead of AL Nipper.

Saw Al Nipper pitch the 1st NB Red Sox game BTW.

 

[Alum86]

My absolute favorite athlete of all time.
Was too young to vividly remember ‘69 but ‘73 oh yeah. He was a money pitcher. When he got run support he’d beat you 6-1 and if he didn’t he would beat you 1-0, and double home the winning run himself. And Deepster is right, no statue of the greatest Met ever at Citi is a disgrace. There are groups that have pushed for this to no avail.

 

[Mister P]

My absolute favorite athlete of all time.
Was too young to vividly remember ‘69 but ‘73 oh yeah. He was a money pitcher. When he got run support he’d beat you 6-1 and if he didn’t he would beat you 1-0, and double home the winning run himself. And Deepster is right, no statue of the greatest Met ever at Citi is a disgrace. There are groups that have pushed for this to no avail.

Yep.Good point. One of the better hitting pitchers.

 

[storrsroars]

Not to mention, Tom's wife Nancy was a babe.

Tom & Nancy were popular enough to grace the cover of People magazine.

Couple of interesting things in the article - I recall the Dick Young muck-stirring about Nancy being jealous of Nolan Ryan making more money. Seaver hated Young over that, it was really the first time we got to see Tom's temper. That crap ran in the Daily News for a couple weeks. Pretty ugly.

The other nugget... Bruce (nee Caitlyn) Jenner's wife saying they were jealous of being compared to Tom & Nancy.

 

[Madmannsucks]

Tom & Nancy were popular enough to grace the cover of People magazine.

Couple of interesting things in the article - I recall the Dick Young muck-stirring about Nancy being jealous of Nolan Ryan making more money. Seaver hated Young over that, it was really the first time we got to see Tom's temper. That crap ran in the Daily News for a couple weeks. Pretty ugly.

The other nugget... Bruce (nee Caitlyn) Jenner's wife saying they were jealous of being compared to Tom & Nancy.

IIR that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Dick Young.

 

[Madmannsucks]

https://nypost.com/2017/06/15/behind-the-scenes-of-the-darkest-day-in-mets-history/

 

[storrsroars]

https://nypost.com/2017/06/15/behind-the-scenes-of-the-darkest-day-in-mets-history/

Love him or hate him, the man knew how to craft a quote that stung:
George Steinbrenner gleefully told Page Six: “I would never have traded him. He’s a star. New York is a star town.”

 

[uconnfan68]

Because having him manage the team in the first place was nothing but a marketing gimmick. Pure PR. Personally, I'm more for meritocracy when it comes to retiring numbers. The Payson's were cheap but there was no reason those 62-65 teams had to be as bad as they were. Their Pythagorean record under Stengel was 16 games worse than it should've been over his 3.5 years. That's incompetence.

Not that the Yankees are the model for retiring #s as they do it far too often, but assuming Wright will get his retired, they should also do Gooden before he's dead. Both contributed more than 50 fWAR and especially in Gooden's case, some of the greatest memories a fan could have. And 50 fWAR is a hella lot more than most of the Yankee #s that have been retired or received plaques.

fwiw, Piazza didn't even contribute 30 fWAR as a Met. More than half his HoF cred came from LAD.

No, they really earned those records 62-65. Of course it was a PR stunt to have Casey manage... isn’t that how you attract fans looking to replace both teams that left?
Not worth getting upset about.

 

[Alum86]

Didn’t Tom Terrific beat the Yanks on Phil Rizzuto day? The cow knocked the scooter over as well? Scooter was classy about it, of course. Funny.

 

[huskyrob1]

Seaver, Koosman (who was arguably the better pitcher in '69), Gary Gentry, Jim McAndrew, Don Cardwell, with Ryan making a handful of starts. IIRC, all had ERA's under 4, with Seaver & Koos under 3. Great rotation, but not the best in MLB history.

OK, so name some starting rotations (4 pitchers) that were clearly better in your opinion.

 

[storrsroars]

OK, so name some starting rotations (4 pitchers) that were clearly better in your opinion.

In my lifetime, '66 Dodgers, '71 Orioles, '72 A's. '64 White Sox (!). I believe the '93 Braves were mostly a four-man rotation. Before I was born there were a few AL teams that had great 4-man rotations.

 

[Marbles90]

OK, so name some starting rotations (4 pitchers) that were clearly better in your opinion.

Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, Avery

 

[huskyrob1]

OK, so name some starting rotations (4 pitchers) that were clearly better in your opinion.

1971...... Seaver, Koosman, Matlack, and Ryan wore Met uniforms. I can't think of four pitchers who were better. I mean three HOF' ers? Maybe four someday.

 

[huskyrob1]

In my lifetime, '66 Dodgers, '71 Orioles, '72 A's. '64 White Sox (!). I believe the '93 Braves were mostly a four-man rotation. Before I was born there were a few AL teams that had great 4-man rotations.

Stop hiding behind your post. Name names like I did.

 

[storrsroars]

1971. Seaver, Koosman, Matlack, and Ryan wore Met uniforms. I can't think of four pitchers who were better. I mean three HOF' ers? Maybe four someday.

In 1971, both Ryan and Matlack were basically replacement level pitchers. Seaver had a GREAT year. Koosman was above average but not one of his better years. And who got into the HoF besides Seaver and Ryan?

The second most valuable Mets pitcher that year was Tug McGraw.

 

[huskyrob1]

Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, Avery

Nice rotation but not quite. I remember Ryan throwing 15 strike outs in his 2nd or 3rd year with the Mets.

 

[huskyrob1]

In 1971, both Ryan and Matlack were basically replacement level pitchers. Seaver had a GREAT year. Koosman was above average but not one of his better years. And who got into the HoF besides Seaver and Ryan?

The second most valuable Mets pitcher that year was Tug McGraw.

I thought Koosman did, maybe next year. Lol

 

[huskyrob1]

In my lifetime, '66 Dodgers, '71 Orioles, '72 A's. '64 White Sox (!). I believe the '93 Braves were mostly a four-man rotation. Before I was born there were a few AL teams that had great 4-man rotations.

Please name names, for these teams. The Dodgers had two great ones but not four in 66.

 

[WhiteDressWes]

Casey was their first manager.

Saw my first Mets game at the Polo Grounds. Loved their run in 1969.

Was born in Brooklyn to a diehard Dodger fan while they still played at Ebbets Field. Never went to a game there though. In spite of that, I gravitated to the Giants, even after they left NY too.

My uncle showed up one day and took me to the Polo Grounds (from Hartford). This was their first home win, ever. At the time, this didn't make up for my parents taking the train to the last game at Ebbets Field, without me, when I was six. When Hickman replaced Ashburn late in the game, fans around me yelled at each other, asking who is this Hickman guy? Nobody knew.

April 28, 1962: Mets earn franchise's first home win at Polo Grounds | Society for American Baseball Research

 

[huskyrob1]

In 1971, both Ryan and Matlack were basically replacement level pitchers. Seaver had a GREAT year. Koosman was above average but not one of his better years. And who got into the HoF besides Seaver and Ryan?

The second most valuable Mets pitcher that year was Tug McGraw.

Replacement level pitchers? Ryan tied the major league record for most strike outs in a game the year before, 1970.

 

[storrsroars]

Please name names, for these teams. The Dodgers had two great ones but not four in 66.

I don't even know what you're asking anymore. Sounds like you simply want rotations with HoF pitchers on it, even if they didn't contribute (like Ryan with the Mets).

To me, that doesn't matter. But as it does to you, how about the 1949 Cleveland Indians when they had Bob Feller, Bob Lemon, Early Wynn and Satchel Page - all HoFers.

I look more at stats like ERA+ and fWAR and focus on a single year. By which metrics the 93 Braves were the best starting pitching rotation in the past 60 years. And as has already been pointed out: Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Avery (three HoFers, although that really doesn't matter).

The '65 Dodgers had Koufax, Drysdale, Don Sutton and Claude Osteen. Again, 3 HoFers and Osteen was better than any 4th starter the Mets ever had.

Fwiw, in 1969, the Mets starting rotation was only 9th best in all MLB. The Cubs actually had the best rotation that year.

I'd argue with you more, but Gonzaga looks like they're going down tonight...

 

[storrsroars]

Replacement level pitchers? Ryan tied the major league record for most strike outs in a game the year before, 1970.

And what's your point there? He was otherwise pretty poor. His highest K total was 15 in 1970. The record was 18 at the time IIRC. He only K'd 125 guys while walking 97. That's a lousy ratio. He didn't turn into NOLAN RYAN until 1972 with the Angels.

 

[huskyrob1]

And what's your point there? He was otherwise pretty poor. His highest K total was 15 in 1970. The record was 18 at the time IIRC. He only K'd 125 guys while walking 97. That's a lousy ratio. He didn't turn into NOLAN RYAN until 1972 with the Angels.

Let's look at 1972, without Ryan, the Mets had Seaver, Koosman, and Matlack was NLROY, his first full season. ERA of around 2. For the fourth pitcher throw in McGraw. I looked in Wikpedia, yes the ML record was 18 strike outs, the 15 by Ryan was a Mets record. Also Ryan had that high SO to BB ratio throughout his career. Are you saying he's overated just because he walked so many batters over 28 years?????

 

[Madmannsucks]

1971. Seaver, Koosman, Matlack, and Ryan wore Met uniforms. I can't think of four pitchers who were better. I mean three HOF' ers? Maybe four someday.

Jim Palmer, Mike Cuellar, Dave McNally, Pat Dobson?

 

[huskyrob1]

I don't even know what you're asking anymore. Sounds like you simply want rotations with HoF pitchers on it, even if they didn't contribute (like Ryan with the Mets).

To me, that doesn't matter. But as it does to you, how about the 1949 Cleveland Indians when they had Bob Feller, Bob Lemon, Early Wynn and Satchel Page - all HoFers.

I look more at stats like ERA+ and fWAR and focus on a single year. By which metrics the 93 Braves were the best starting pitching rotation in the past 60 years. And as has already been pointed out: Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Avery (three HoFers, although that really doesn't matter).

The '65 Dodgers had Koufax, Drysdale, Don Sutton and Claude Osteen. Again, 3 HoFers and Osteen was better than any 4th starter the Mets ever had.

Fwiw, in 1969, the Mets starting rotation was only 9th best in all MLB. The Cubs actually had the best rotation that year.

I'd argue with you more, but Gonzaga looks like they're going down tonight...

FWIW I never mentioned 1969, but you did because you're argument stinks. However if you insist on dragging 1969 into this, Nolan Ryan did some stellar pitching in the 69 post season.

 

[storrsroars]

FWIW I was never mentioned 1969, but you did because you're argument stinks.

I don't remember the year but the Mets may have had the greatest starting rotation in the history of baseball. Seaver, rookie Nolan Ryan, Koosman, and one more....I think John Matlack?

Ryan was a rookie in 69. Matlack was a rookie in 72. How in hell am I supposed to know what year you're referencing?

 

[huskyrob1]

Jim Palmer, Mike Cuellar, Dave McNally, Tom Phoebus?

Tom who?

 

[huskyrob1]

Ryan was a rookie in 69. Matlack was a rookie in 72. How in hell am I supposed to know what year you're referencing?

YOU brought up 1969, not me. Lol. Matlack pitched his first ML game for the Mets on July 11th 1971.

 

[huskyrob1]

Ryan was a rookie in 69. Matlack was a rookie in 72. How in hell am I supposed to know what year you're referencing?

You KNOW what year I was referring to, 1971. Like I said your argument stinks. I really don't think you're supposed to know anything.

 

[storrsroars]

YOU brought up 1969, not me. Lol. Matlack pitched his first ML game for the Mets on July 11th 1971.

And Matlack's RoY season was 1972. You, in your original post, which I referenced above distinctly mentioned "rookie Nolan Ryan" as part of your "greatest pitching staff". Ryan's rookie season was technically 1968, but I was giving you benefit of the doubt by citing 1969, which was a better season for Seaver & Koosman.

I'm done here. No point in arguing with you further. Seems you need an Rx refilled. Until then, you're now on "ignore".