The View From Section 241 -- Realignment Update | Page 3 | The Boneyard

The View From Section 241 -- Realignment Update

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nelsonmuntz

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Despite the resident expert's assertions to the contrary, markets matter a lot. So does providing high caliber competition for TV. In 2006 and 2007, when the Big East was one of the top 3-4 conferences in football, the ratings were great. Last year, when the Big East sucked, the ratings were poor to the extent the Big East ever got on TV. This year, the Big East is getting shut out from ESPN because of this dispute.

Houston and SMU have tremendous potential and will get lots of attention in their market if they are successful. Boise has national interest. The league's biggest problem was that Pitt and Syracuse, two of the teams with the most history in the league, actually got worse after realignment as WVU, Cincinnati, USF and at times Louisville, UConn and Rutgers spread their wings. The new schools will see an immediate bump in recruiting.

The Big East will be fine.
 
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You are vastly overstating the importance of population.

South Bend isn't what most would call a thriving a metropolis. Neither is Tuscaloosa. Storrs isn't really either, but people know UConn basketball on a national level.

Winning matters above all else. Having a huge alumni base helps, but if population size was as important as you think St. John's, Rutgers and Seton Hall would be bigger names than UConn, Syracuse, and West Virgina.
I am going to guess you've been associated with the state of Connecticut in some way.
 
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Despite the resident expert's assertions to the contrary, markets matter a lot. So does providing high caliber competition for TV. In 2006 and 2007, when the Big East was one of the top 3-4 conferences in football, the ratings were great. Last year, when the Big East sucked, the ratings were poor to the extent the Big East ever got on TV. This year, the Big East is getting shut out from ESPN because of this dispute.

Houston and SMU have tremendous potential and will get lots of attention in their market if they are successful. Boise has national interest. The league's biggest problem was that Pitt and Syracuse, two of the teams with the most history in the league, actually got worse after realignment as WVU, Cincinnati, USF and at times Louisville, UConn and Rutgers spread their wings. The new schools will see an immediate bump in recruiting.

The Big East will be fine.
I totally agree with you. Somehow, some just don't grasp this.
 
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I agree with most of the rest of your post, except this.

It wasn't that long ago that FSU was an all-girls school. It won't be easy, but USF has potential. I agree that the schools in the mix are a band-aid, but there aren't any schools that can save/stabilize the conference that are interested in joining.

you heard Lou Holtz say that last night
 
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You are vastly overstating the importance of population.

South Bend isn't what most would call a thriving a metropolis. Neither is Tuscaloosa. Storrs isn't really either, but people know UConn basketball on a national level.

Winning matters above all else. Having a huge alumni base helps, but if population size was as important as you think St. John's, Rutgers and Seton Hall would be bigger names than UConn, Syracuse, and West Virgina.

I think the three things that those places have in common is that the University is the "only game in town"
 

RS9999X

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SMU booked TCU and Texas A&M this year and last year.
Last year both games were @SMU. Both were on ESPN Prime. Not on ESPN3 or loserville
The TAMU game drew 58,500 to SMU. TCU 35,000.

Those types of bookings are National Games. ESPN wants 16 solid national games a year out of the BE contract.

Oh, the SMU UAB game from last year? 16,000 fans and no TV.

Memphis? They have one home game this year that drew more than 18,000. Southern Miss brought some fans and does so every other year--its 5 hours by bus.

National TV? Memphis? More like local college radio. If Memphis built all the crap they say there are going to and drew some fans they'd be in the mix. Right now they are like Nova.
 

ctchamps

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Winning is the most relevant factor.

Winning where the stakes are high is even better. (In other words belonging to a BCS conference)

A large alumni base is next most important factor.

A huge population around the university without a competing professional team is next most important.

This article discusses stadium attendance. But it would apply to viewership in general I believe:

http://harvardsportsanalysis.wordpr...contribute-to-attendance-in-college-football/
 
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Totally disagree. Entering the Big East will generate alot of fan interest for SMU, Houston and UCF. SMU will draw 40,000 for their conference games, they just need to win. The Big East is a very good incubator for football programs. (see Virginia Tech, Cincy, UCONN, Rutgers)
nope. did you not see the picture there of two future big east teams playing and no one is there? so they're all going to suddenly show up because SMU is playing USF? Cincinnati? This is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. The Big East is a sinking ship, and these additions, with the exception of Boise to an extent, are just putting duct tape on the holes. We need to get out if we can at any cost.
 

FfldCntyFan

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I hate saying this but a handful of people apparently read Tagliabue's comments from about fifteen months ago and took it for gospel. Contrary to what Tagliabue (and Marinatto) believed, upgrading Nova to FBS level would not in and of itself gives us Philly (Tagliabue actually went so far as to claim that his alma mater, Georgetown, would be able to use Nova's upgrade as a model if they decided to do the same).

What USF and UCF have going for them is enormous undergraduate student bodies. The biggest problem is that most local residents have already been aligned with one of the big three (primarily UF & FSU but also to a small extent Miami) for more than a generation. Each will need consistent success and time before a true, sustainable fan base is created.

SMU and Houston have benefits of huge populatiuon bases and some (albeit small) entrenchment in these bases. Each has quite a bit of work to do as the past two decades (longer for SMU) have been little more than a void for both schools, deteriorating a good portion of the fan bases each had.

Having a school in a big city in and of itself does nothing. The A-10's bold move of adding Fordham (after twice being turned down by Manhattan) is evidence of this. If the additions within big cities have no veritas or gravitas, we are lying to ourselves believing they can capture any fan base until after the long and difficult process of building one has reached the point of showing some legitimate returns.

That said, I really don't see anything we could realistically do that could possibly be considered better for the conference than adding UCF, Houston and SMU. I also believe that each of these schools could add enough to help the conference remain legitimate as a BCS football conference. We have to accept the fact that there will be flaws with whoever we add. If the candidates didn't have flaws, someone else would have already grabbed them. These three schools however can easily provide solid, middle of a BCS conference footbsall performance immediately (something we dearly need) and should be able to improve their product and fan support with BCS conference membership. This really is all that we can ask for at the moment.
 

RS9999X

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The Big East is a sinking ship, and these additions, with the exception of Boise to an extent, are just putting duct tape on the holes. We need to get out if we can at any cost.

Yes, UConn should aspire to move up where it can book top 40 teams on the schedule.

What UConn can do in the meantime is book the best teams available.

Winning is the most relevant factor.

Winning where the stakes are high is even better. (In other words belonging to a BCS conference)

A large alumni base is next most important factor.

A huge population around the university without a competing professional team is next most important.

This article discusses stadium attendance. But it would apply to viewership in general I believe:

http://harvardsportsanalysis.wordpr...contribute-to-attendance-in-college-football/

Nice study. The devil is in the details.

Conclusion:

Teams should book the best BCS teams they can defeat (Notre Dame! Vanderbilt, Baylor, Virginia).

Non-BCS bookings should be against strong regional rivals (UConn has none. Temple and Army are as good as it gets. UConn should not book FCS).

Season ticket sales are influenced by winning seasons and winning consistency (UConn usually rebuilds after a QB change).
 

RS9999X

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That said, I really don't see anything we could realistically do that could possibly be considered better for the conference than adding UCF, Houston and SMU. .

If we were talking stocks, USF and UCF are solid but unexciting mid-cap stocks. Both are slowly grabbing market share from larger market players.

SMU and Houston are small cap flyers. One of them might breakout with nurturing and more media money. At worse, the big guys come around and kick the tires and they get some audience at that time.

Boise is NetFlix. A losing season and it's a long way down rock and roll and Memphis starts to look good.
 

FfldCntyFan

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Boise is NetFlix. A losing season and it's a long way down rock and roll and Memphis starts to look good.
It could be worse. Imagine if Boise St were Blockbuster!
 
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Despite the resident expert's assertions to the contrary, markets matter a lot. So does providing high caliber competition for TV. In 2006 and 2007, when the Big East was one of the top 3-4 conferences in football, the ratings were great. Last year, when the Big East sucked, the ratings were poor to the extent the Big East ever got on TV. This year, the Big East is getting shut out from ESPN because of this dispute.

Houston and SMU have tremendous potential and will get lots of attention in their market if they are successful. Boise has national interest. The league's biggest problem was that Pitt and Syracuse, two of the teams with the most history in the league, actually got worse after realignment as WVU, Cincinnati, USF and at times Louisville, UConn and Rutgers spread their wings. The new schools will see an immediate bump in recruiting.

The Big East will be fine.

I wonder why the Big 12 isn't adding Houston and SMU due to their tremendous potential and guaranteed attention in their market.....if they are succesful.

I understand the need to add Houston and SMU. I don't understand why people would be excited about these teams, think this will lock up our BCS status, be a long term fix, save the conference, or.......mean UConn would turn down the ACC.

For someone who talks about ECU having no presence in their market (despite the fact they have a higher attendance than UConn) it's humurous to watch you cream over SMU and Houston as if they as a big a draw as you pretend.
 
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you heard Lou Holtz say that last night
Maybe you heard Lou Holtz say that. I have family members that have been going to that school for generations. I've known that for years.

Would you like to explain why it matters what Lou Holtz said?
 
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It would make more sense for Boise St to join the two Western conferences that are merging. I just can't see how it makes sense for a school from IDAHO to join a watered down Eastern football conference on the verge of losing it's BCS bid. Temple would have been a logical addition but once again one of the basketball schools(Nova) squashed that idea. It's time for a new Northeastern D-1 football conference and if smart people act fast they can get the Cuse and Pitt to buy in before they go to the ACC. Get the 12 best Northeastern most football schools to band together, then get ESPN, Comcast and whoever else into a bidding war with the stipulation that whoever does win pays the exit fees for schools jumping into the new league. That makes a lot more sense than having a Big East conference scattered to the four winds and still ripe for the picking if another league needs to expand. $20 mil isn't going to stop anyone from jumping if the next price is right. I'm sure there are donors that would poney up a good portion of that to get us into the ACC if that day came. The only problem in joining the ACC is once Big East football is gone they become the bottom dweller and a bigger fish might learn from their example and squeeze them out like they are doing to the Big East.
 
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I think the three things that those places have in common is that the University is the "only game in town"

Exactly. Population is important, but not nearly as important as market share. If population size was all that mattered, Rutgers would be in the ACC or Big 10 by now.

The market share for a sport/programs is more important than the market size.
 

zls44

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We already know ESPN's position. Have any thoughts of your own?

You are the Don Quixote of the board, and let me assure you, that is NOT a compliment. You imagine things that do not make sense, and do not exist.

I've got absolutely nothing to gain on the issue (bottom of the lowest pile), but enough connections to know that you, sir, are 3000% full of . You are mad about UConn's position and looking to take out your uncontrollable rage on ESPN, despite a lack of any- ANY - non-hearsay evidence. You have nothing. Absolutely nothing. Except your own anger.

Bein' angry don't make it happen, son.
 
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Does interest in increasing applicant pool factor in at all? That is, bracket athletics, TV dollars, and athletic recruiting for the moment, and look at the applicant pool of normal students. Would Boise St. or Houston be keenly interested in getting exposure in the Northeast and, vice versa, UConn get exposure in Texas in order to get more regular students interested in attending their schools? I imagine that issue is a factor, but don't know whether it's a tiny one or a significant one.
 
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Just my opinion but anyone who is criticizing the current expansion candidates should provide a solution that is clearly superior or they should shut the $uck up. Why are people excited about the current expansion candidates? That's easy to answer, because it is alot better than what we have now. Case closed.

And arguing that a proposed team is garbage because they are struggling to draw fans now is BS. Based on that criteria UCONN should have never been admitted to the Big East for football because we couldn't draw flies before we upgraded.
 

ctchamps

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Does interest in increasing applicant pool factor in at all? That is, bracket athletics, TV dollars, and athletic recruiting for the moment, and look at the applicant pool of normal students. Would Boise St. or Houston be keenly interested in getting exposure in the Northeast and, vice versa, UConn get exposure in Texas in order to get more regular students interested in attending their schools? I imagine that issue is a factor, but don't know whether it's a tiny one or a significant one.

No one does because the situation is dynamic. We're all trying to predict events before they happen. And we all (media, fans, universities and conferences) assign different values to different parameters in coming up with value. But in the end value is part guess and part logic.

After the raid of BC, Miami and VT, a lot of people thought the ACC tremendously improved their football conference and thought there would be a minimum impact on the basketball side. They were touting the value 12 teams brought to a conference play off. They were predicting the ACC would become an elite conference. That prediction did not pan out. Outside of VT, the conference either went sideways or downwards in strength depending on who you ask.

Meanwhile everyone was laughing at the BE bringing in Conference USA teams. Well the BE held its own. It wasn't the choice of schools that hurt the conference. It was the inability to get cooperation by all the members to develop and promote the conference in an optimum way. This could be everything from the tension between bb only and football members, the imbalance ND brought to the conference, the inability to expand the football side of the conference, the inability to create barriers to leaving, the timing of the media contract, outside influences and so on.

I'm less concerned about the specifics in this latest movement by the BE. I actually believe the overall decision making is well thought out and gives the NBE its optimum chance of surviving and maybe developing itself into a decent brand. I'm qualifying this last sentence. I don't have pie in the sky illusions about the immediate impact of adding these teams. I'm well aware that outside factors will have a stronger impact on the survival of this hypothetical NBE configuration. But any other option offered regarding action or inaction by the BE imo is far worse.

No one is arguing that this configuration is better than an ACC invite if the invite was offered before the next BE media contract. But things can change over eighteen months and the NBE might develop increasing value with regards to the media and its football and bb content, that UConn may be forced to make a difficult decision of staying or leaving. That would be the best development from UConn's perspective.

And as BL points out, this potential redevelopment of the BE has to be considered by the ACC, and ESPN if you are conspiratorial inclined, and could force the ACC to make a move of inviting UConn sooner rather than later.
 
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I wonder why the Big 12 isn't adding Houston and SMU due to their tremendous potential and guaranteed attention in their market.....if they are succesful.

because they don't have to
 
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Maybe you heard Lou Holtz say that. I have family members that have been going to that school for generations. I've known that for years.

Would you like to explain why it matters what Lou Holtz said?

it only matters because you share his opinion.
 

junglehusky

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I don't think comparing SMU/UH to UConn pre-upgrade is a good comparison. They have some potential but it is significantly limited based on being in the backyard of several B12 schools/fanbases.

I would propose comparing SMU/UH's current potential to Louisville pre-BE as a benchmark. Do people really see similar potential there? I don't.
 
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I hate saying this but a handful of people apparently read Tagliabue's comments from about fifteen months ago and took it for gospel. Contrary to what Tagliabue (and Marinatto) believed, upgrading Nova to FBS level would not in and of itself gives us Philly (Tagliabue actually went so far as to claim that his alma mater, Georgetown, would be able to use Nova's upgrade as a model if they decided to do the same).

What USF and UCF have going for them is enormous undergraduate student bodies. The biggest problem is that most local residents have already been aligned with one of the big three (primarily UF & FSU but also to a small extent Miami) for more than a generation. Each will need consistent success and time before a true, sustainable fan base is created.

SMU and Houston have benefits of huge populatiuon bases and some (albeit small) entrenchment in these bases. Each has quite a bit of work to do as the past two decades (longer for SMU) have been little more than a void for both schools, deteriorating a good portion of the fan bases each had.

Having a school in a big city in and of itself does nothing. The A-10's bold move of adding Fordham (after twice being turned down by Manhattan) is evidence of this. If the additions within big cities have no veritas or gravitas, we are lying to ourselves believing they can capture any fan base until after the long and difficult process of building one has reached the point of showing some legitimate returns.

That said, I really don't see anything we could realistically do that could possibly be considered better for the conference than adding UCF, Houston and SMU. I also believe that each of these schools could add enough to help the conference remain legitimate as a BCS football conference. We have to accept the fact that there will be flaws with whoever we add. If the candidates didn't have flaws, someone else would have already grabbed them. These three schools however can easily provide solid, middle of a BCS conference footbsall performance immediately (something we dearly need) and should be able to improve their product and fan support with BCS conference membership. This really is all that we can ask for at the moment.
+1. My man, this is very well stated.
 
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