The View From Section 241 -- Realignment Update | Page 3 | The Boneyard

The View From Section 241 -- Realignment Update

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That said, I really don't see anything we could realistically do that could possibly be considered better for the conference than adding UCF, Houston and SMU. .

If we were talking stocks, USF and UCF are solid but unexciting mid-cap stocks. Both are slowly grabbing market share from larger market players.

SMU and Houston are small cap flyers. One of them might breakout with nurturing and more media money. At worse, the big guys come around and kick the tires and they get some audience at that time.

Boise is NetFlix. A losing season and it's a long way down rock and roll and Memphis starts to look good.
 
Boise is NetFlix. A losing season and it's a long way down rock and roll and Memphis starts to look good.
It could be worse. Imagine if Boise St were Blockbuster!
 
Despite the resident expert's assertions to the contrary, markets matter a lot. So does providing high caliber competition for TV. In 2006 and 2007, when the Big East was one of the top 3-4 conferences in football, the ratings were great. Last year, when the Big East sucked, the ratings were poor to the extent the Big East ever got on TV. This year, the Big East is getting shut out from ESPN because of this dispute.

Houston and SMU have tremendous potential and will get lots of attention in their market if they are successful. Boise has national interest. The league's biggest problem was that Pitt and Syracuse, two of the teams with the most history in the league, actually got worse after realignment as WVU, Cincinnati, USF and at times Louisville, UConn and Rutgers spread their wings. The new schools will see an immediate bump in recruiting.

The Big East will be fine.

I wonder why the Big 12 isn't adding Houston and SMU due to their tremendous potential and guaranteed attention in their market.....if they are succesful.

I understand the need to add Houston and SMU. I don't understand why people would be excited about these teams, think this will lock up our BCS status, be a long term fix, save the conference, or.......mean UConn would turn down the ACC.

For someone who talks about ECU having no presence in their market (despite the fact they have a higher attendance than UConn) it's humurous to watch you cream over SMU and Houston as if they as a big a draw as you pretend.
 
you heard Lou Holtz say that last night
Maybe you heard Lou Holtz say that. I have family members that have been going to that school for generations. I've known that for years.

Would you like to explain why it matters what Lou Holtz said?
 
It would make more sense for Boise St to join the two Western conferences that are merging. I just can't see how it makes sense for a school from IDAHO to join a watered down Eastern football conference on the verge of losing it's BCS bid. Temple would have been a logical addition but once again one of the basketball schools(Nova) squashed that idea. It's time for a new Northeastern D-1 football conference and if smart people act fast they can get the Cuse and Pitt to buy in before they go to the ACC. Get the 12 best Northeastern most football schools to band together, then get ESPN, Comcast and whoever else into a bidding war with the stipulation that whoever does win pays the exit fees for schools jumping into the new league. That makes a lot more sense than having a Big East conference scattered to the four winds and still ripe for the picking if another league needs to expand. $20 mil isn't going to stop anyone from jumping if the next price is right. I'm sure there are donors that would poney up a good portion of that to get us into the ACC if that day came. The only problem in joining the ACC is once Big East football is gone they become the bottom dweller and a bigger fish might learn from their example and squeeze them out like they are doing to the Big East.
 
I think the three things that those places have in common is that the University is the "only game in town"

Exactly. Population is important, but not nearly as important as market share. If population size was all that mattered, Rutgers would be in the ACC or Big 10 by now.

The market share for a sport/programs is more important than the market size.
 
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We already know ESPN's position. Have any thoughts of your own?

You are the Don Quixote of the board, and let me assure you, that is NOT a compliment. You imagine things that do not make sense, and do not exist.

I've got absolutely nothing to gain on the issue (bottom of the lowest pile), but enough connections to know that you, sir, are 3000% full of . You are mad about UConn's position and looking to take out your uncontrollable rage on ESPN, despite a lack of any- ANY - non-hearsay evidence. You have nothing. Absolutely nothing. Except your own anger.

Bein' angry don't make it happen, son.
 
Does interest in increasing applicant pool factor in at all? That is, bracket athletics, TV dollars, and athletic recruiting for the moment, and look at the applicant pool of normal students. Would Boise St. or Houston be keenly interested in getting exposure in the Northeast and, vice versa, UConn get exposure in Texas in order to get more regular students interested in attending their schools? I imagine that issue is a factor, but don't know whether it's a tiny one or a significant one.
 
Just my opinion but anyone who is criticizing the current expansion candidates should provide a solution that is clearly superior or they should shut the $uck up. Why are people excited about the current expansion candidates? That's easy to answer, because it is alot better than what we have now. Case closed.

And arguing that a proposed team is garbage because they are struggling to draw fans now is BS. Based on that criteria UCONN should have never been admitted to the Big East for football because we couldn't draw flies before we upgraded.
 
Does interest in increasing applicant pool factor in at all? That is, bracket athletics, TV dollars, and athletic recruiting for the moment, and look at the applicant pool of normal students. Would Boise St. or Houston be keenly interested in getting exposure in the Northeast and, vice versa, UConn get exposure in Texas in order to get more regular students interested in attending their schools? I imagine that issue is a factor, but don't know whether it's a tiny one or a significant one.

No one does because the situation is dynamic. We're all trying to predict events before they happen. And we all (media, fans, universities and conferences) assign different values to different parameters in coming up with value. But in the end value is part guess and part logic.

After the raid of BC, Miami and VT, a lot of people thought the ACC tremendously improved their football conference and thought there would be a minimum impact on the basketball side. They were touting the value 12 teams brought to a conference play off. They were predicting the ACC would become an elite conference. That prediction did not pan out. Outside of VT, the conference either went sideways or downwards in strength depending on who you ask.

Meanwhile everyone was laughing at the BE bringing in Conference USA teams. Well the BE held its own. It wasn't the choice of schools that hurt the conference. It was the inability to get cooperation by all the members to develop and promote the conference in an optimum way. This could be everything from the tension between bb only and football members, the imbalance ND brought to the conference, the inability to expand the football side of the conference, the inability to create barriers to leaving, the timing of the media contract, outside influences and so on.

I'm less concerned about the specifics in this latest movement by the BE. I actually believe the overall decision making is well thought out and gives the NBE its optimum chance of surviving and maybe developing itself into a decent brand. I'm qualifying this last sentence. I don't have pie in the sky illusions about the immediate impact of adding these teams. I'm well aware that outside factors will have a stronger impact on the survival of this hypothetical NBE configuration. But any other option offered regarding action or inaction by the BE imo is far worse.

No one is arguing that this configuration is better than an ACC invite if the invite was offered before the next BE media contract. But things can change over eighteen months and the NBE might develop increasing value with regards to the media and its football and bb content, that UConn may be forced to make a difficult decision of staying or leaving. That would be the best development from UConn's perspective.

And as BL points out, this potential redevelopment of the BE has to be considered by the ACC, and ESPN if you are conspiratorial inclined, and could force the ACC to make a move of inviting UConn sooner rather than later.
 
I wonder why the Big 12 isn't adding Houston and SMU due to their tremendous potential and guaranteed attention in their market.....if they are succesful.

because they don't have to
 
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Maybe you heard Lou Holtz say that. I have family members that have been going to that school for generations. I've known that for years.

Would you like to explain why it matters what Lou Holtz said?

it only matters because you share his opinion.
 
I don't think comparing SMU/UH to UConn pre-upgrade is a good comparison. They have some potential but it is significantly limited based on being in the backyard of several B12 schools/fanbases.

I would propose comparing SMU/UH's current potential to Louisville pre-BE as a benchmark. Do people really see similar potential there? I don't.
 
I hate saying this but a handful of people apparently read Tagliabue's comments from about fifteen months ago and took it for gospel. Contrary to what Tagliabue (and Marinatto) believed, upgrading Nova to FBS level would not in and of itself gives us Philly (Tagliabue actually went so far as to claim that his alma mater, Georgetown, would be able to use Nova's upgrade as a model if they decided to do the same).

What USF and UCF have going for them is enormous undergraduate student bodies. The biggest problem is that most local residents have already been aligned with one of the big three (primarily UF & FSU but also to a small extent Miami) for more than a generation. Each will need consistent success and time before a true, sustainable fan base is created.

SMU and Houston have benefits of huge populatiuon bases and some (albeit small) entrenchment in these bases. Each has quite a bit of work to do as the past two decades (longer for SMU) have been little more than a void for both schools, deteriorating a good portion of the fan bases each had.

Having a school in a big city in and of itself does nothing. The A-10's bold move of adding Fordham (after twice being turned down by Manhattan) is evidence of this. If the additions within big cities have no veritas or gravitas, we are lying to ourselves believing they can capture any fan base until after the long and difficult process of building one has reached the point of showing some legitimate returns.

That said, I really don't see anything we could realistically do that could possibly be considered better for the conference than adding UCF, Houston and SMU. I also believe that each of these schools could add enough to help the conference remain legitimate as a BCS football conference. We have to accept the fact that there will be flaws with whoever we add. If the candidates didn't have flaws, someone else would have already grabbed them. These three schools however can easily provide solid, middle of a BCS conference footbsall performance immediately (something we dearly need) and should be able to improve their product and fan support with BCS conference membership. This really is all that we can ask for at the moment.
+1. My man, this is very well stated.
 
Just my opinion but anyone who is criticizing the current expansion candidates should provide a solution that is clearly superior or they should shut the $uck up. Why are people excited about the current expansion candidates? That's easy to answer, because it is alot better than what we have now. Case closed.

And arguing that a proposed team is garbage because they are struggling to draw fans now is BS. Based on that criteria UCONN should have never been admitted to the Big East for football because we couldn't draw flies before we upgraded.

I'm excited about BSU and UCF. I'm happy about the possibility of Navy, and very happy with BYU, if we can get them.

I'm not excited about SMU or Houston (or ECU). The TX schools are a reminder we missed out on TCU. They aren't near the top of the wish list even in the state of TX, Baylor & TCU are.

I am mildly satisfied and optomistic. I am not excited (or delusional) enough to claim the new conference will be more popular and better compensated than the ACC. Nor am I crazy enough to pretend the conference still wouldn't fall apart with a few Big 12 or ACC invites extended. We don't all have to share the same enthusiasm or shut the $uck up.
 
No one is arguing that this configuration is better than an ACC invite if the invite was offered before the next BE media contract.

We are mostly in agreement, but there is a person claiming that not only will the new conference get better ratings and a higher TV contract than the ACC, but that UConn would turn down an invite to the ACC.

That's crazy.
 
because they don't have to
TCU? Louisville/WVU?

The ACC didn't "have to" add Cuse/Pitt.

If they were as valuable as some think, they would be added for profitability, not necessity.
 
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We don't all have to share the same enthusiasm or shut the $uck up.

Nobody is asking you to share the same enthusiasm, I just want to know why you feel the need to rain on someone else's parade. I don't see how being overly optimistic ever hurt anyone.

We are all waiting to hear your plan to successfully lure Baylor, TCU and BYU to the Big East.
 
I'm not excited about SMU or Houston (or ECU). The TX schools are a reminder we missed out on TCU. They aren't near the top of the wish list even in the state of TX, Baylor & TCU are.
This could be starry eyed optimism on my part but I need someone to explain how TCU has any higher an upside than either SMU or Houston.

In terms of performance, each can sustain something at worse reasonably close to what TCU and Baylor can and each can have similar fan support to those two. Neither will ever draw crowds the way UT or A&M draw but before you place TCU or Baylor on a pedestal take a look at their attendance numbers over the past few years (keep in mind some of the schools that visited Waco during that time).
 
This could be starry eyed optimism on my part but I need someone to explain how TCU has any higher an upside than either SMU or Houston.

In terms of performance, each can sustain something at worse reasonably close to what TCU and Baylor can and each can have similar fan support to those two. Neither will ever draw crowds the way UT or A&M draw but before you place TCU or Baylor on a pedestal take a look at their attendance numbers over the past few years (keep in mind some of the schools that visited Waco during that time).

I don't expect people to remember, but I've been consistent that my opinion on expansion candidates should be guided by one thing; retaining our BCS bid.

TCU won the Rose Bowl last year, and has the top 25 finishes that help us in the computers. For that reason they are way above the other two on our wish list.

All three of the schools may have the same/similar upside, but only one has a recent proven track record of being able to compete at a BCS level. We can believe that recruiting will get better for Houston/SMU. But TCU didn't need the BCS recruiting bump to be able to compete with and beat BCS programs.

I don't believe the Big East will be around in 5-7 years, so I am just not that concerned with long term potential.
 
Nobody is asking you to share the same enthusiasm, I just want to know why you feel the need to rain on someone else's parade. I don't see how being overly optimistic ever hurt anyone.

We are all waiting to hear your plan to successfully lure Baylor, TCU and BYU to the Big East.

The rest of my post said who I was excited about. Glad that you ignored it and created a strawman to argue with.

The person who's parade I rained on said the new conference will be so valuable UConn would turn down an invite to the ACC. You can't honestly expect people not to criticize that can you?

Immediately after Pitt/Cuse left, I said the Big East should be going after the Big 12 teams that were vulnerable. It's too late now, and you know that, but the Big East never even tried. Don't blame that on me. Some of the Big 12 schools reportedly wanted in the Big East, we ignored them. If we brought on Baylor/Iowa St and the Kansas' then TCU doesn't leave, and we aren't stuck begging Navy, praying for BSU, or "excited" about Houston and SMU.

And we don't have to keep hearing about the awesome potential of Memphis and UMass.

But none of that happened, and if some of us want to approach this with mixed enthusiasm, anger, disappointment, etc. We should be able to do that without being told to "shut the $uck up".
 
This has gotten so old. None of these schools is particularly attractive. SMU has the best alumni base and history, and with some good seasons could easily make a huge jump. Biggest upside. Boise has nowhere to go but down. Houston is saddled with awful academics. CFU is fairly appealing, but it will takes years for them to gain mind share in FLA.

For example, a friend in CT is a huge Nebraska fan. Why? He liked them and there was no local alternative. He roots for UConn in hoops. He has not switched football allegiance to UConn.
 
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The rest of my post said who I was excited about. Glad that you ignored it and created a strawman to argue with.

The person who's parade I rained on said the new conference will be so valuable UConn would turn down an invite to the ACC. You can't honestly expect people not to criticize that can you?

Immediately after Pitt/Cuse left, I said the Big East should be going after the Big 12 teams that were vulnerable. It's too late now, and you know that, but the Big East never even tried. Don't blame that on me. Some of the Big 12 schools reportedly wanted in the Big East, we ignored them. If we brought on Baylor/Iowa St and the Kansas' then TCU doesn't leave, and we aren't stuck begging Navy, praying for BSU, or "excited" about Houston and SMU.

And we don't have to keep hearing about the awesome potential of Memphis and UMass.

But none of that happened, and if some of us want to approach this with mixed enthusiasm, anger, disappointment, etc. We should be able to do that without being told to "shut the $uck up".

Yeah, I didn't think you had a plan to land BYU, TCU and Baylor. So you know what you can do....
 
It is not out of the realm of possibility that both Houston and SMU end this season ranked. I doubt the same can be said about Navy (nor do I believe that any service academy will ever be able to help us maintain a BCS bid). Using Navy kind of destroys your mandate on immediatel help with BCS status. I don't know off the top of my head where BYU sits in the rankings but I'm not sure that they would be much more of a help than the two above mentioned Texas schools even if we could lure BYU to the BE.

Yes, TCU did finish undefeated & #2 last year and not much lower than that with one loss the year before. Unfortunately that ship has sailed but while that ship is sailing, the two former SWC schools from major demographic markets in the state of Texas each appear to be close to being where TCU was a few years ago. I don't believe that it is a seven to ten year quest for SMU and Houston to equal (consistent on field performance) Baylor and TCU, it appears that if they aren't there already, they will be within a season or two.
 
SMU has three claimed national titles. More than Penn State. I am sure you all know better than Paul Tagliabue. Have you seen SMU's locker room?
 
Boise has nowhere to go but down.

That is your argument against Boise? I guess we wouldn't want to add LSU to the conference either, they are currently ranked # 1. Nowhere to go but down.
 
Barring an embarrassing bowl loss Houston is going to end the season highly ranked. They probably have a 60% chance of going 12-0. Their schedule is absolutely pathetic.
 
I think it's a pretty big leap in on field performance from where Houston and SMU are right now to where TCU has been for the past few years.

They are probably the two best candidates we have, but I would be highly doubtful that either could ever go to a Rose Bowl and beat a team like Wisconsin.
 
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