The Hall of Fame

[zyron]

I didn't say he wasn't a first ballot HOF lock. I simply asked why Dove thought Biggio was a compiler (with some negative connotations on that term) and Jeter wasn't. Dove answered the question honestly....and it's the rest of the Jeter Fanboy Nation that can't accept that truth.

Cause Jeter isn't a compiler, he hit .310 for his career. Maybe you don't know this but that is a huge difference from .281. Biggio played his last 3 years just to get to 3000 hits. Again, Jeter had 2 bad seasons (3 if you want to count last years 17 games). You can't have 16 Hall of Fame years and 2 bad ones and say that guy is a compiler.

Go look at Biggio's stats, bad and below average years everywhere.

 

[Dove]

Because it's inaccurate.

Yep, I'm backpedalling off that comment. Jeter had 2 200 hit seasons in his last 5 full seasons with a 179 hit season in there, too.

Biggio cracked the 170 hit mark just once in his last 6 seasons.

Also, throw out Jeter's 2013 season and he had 19 seasons to Biggio's 20. So it's about 3450 hits to 3060. A difference of 400 hits over 19 seasons.

 

[Dove]

I didn't say he wasn't a first ballot HOF lock. I simply asked why Dove thought Biggio was a compiler (with some negative connotations on that term) and Jeter wasn't. Dove answered the question honestly....and it's the rest of the Jeter Fanboy Nation that can't accept that truth.

I put thought into it as I drove home. The twelve .300 seasons (I think I wrote eight earlier?) and the four .290+ seasons make him more of a producer than compiler.

 

[superjohn]

I didn't say he wasn't a first ballot HOF lock. I simply asked why Dove thought Biggio was a compiler (with some negative connotations on that term) and Jeter wasn't. Dove answered the question honestly....and it's the rest of the Jeter Fanboy Nation that can't accept that truth.

I answered it honestly, how does that make me a Jeter fanboy?

 

[CallMeBruce]

If you're just talking about regular season Jeter's career batting average is .310 Biggio's is .281. Jeter had 12 seasons with over a .300 average, Biggio had 4. Jeter had 8 seasons with over 200 hits, Biggio had 1. It's kind of silly to leave out postseason careers when talking about players accomplishments but these are just a few of the differences between their regular season careers. They really weren't my much alike at all.

Batting average sucks. Jeter was better than Biggio, but Biggio's biggest crime was always looking like a dork with a big helmet. He belongs in the HOF.

I would have thought Schilling belonged in the HOF, but according to him, not being as liberal as John Smoltz, a noted homophobe who donated to Mitt Romney. The guy was a great pitcher, but Schilling is really east to hate.

 

[zyron]

Batting average sucks. Jeter was better than Biggio, but Biggio's biggest crime was always looking like a dork with a big helmet. He belongs in the HOF.

I agree, that is why I used offensive WAR. Deepster ignores things that actually show how good Jeter was however.

 

[Husky25]

Overall WAR: Jeter - 71.8 vs. Biggio at 65.1. That is less than 6 wins over 20 years. Jeter is probably a 1st ballot HoFer. Biggio is a 4th ballot HoFer. There's your distinction, but make no mistake, they are both in Cooperstown? Skip over his plaque if you choose, but Biggio has a rightful claim. Period.

 

[zyron]

Overall WAR: Jeter - 71.8 vs. Biggio at 65.1. That is less than 6 wins over 20 years. Jeter is probably a 1st ballot HoFer. Biggio is a 4th ballot HoFer. There's your distinction, but make no mistake, they are both in Cooperstown? Skip over his plaque if you choose, but Biggio has a rightful claim. Period.

I think everyone agrees Biggio is a hall of famer. Deepster said that Biggio was just as good offensively as Jeter, which he is not.

 

[Husky25]

I think everyone agrees Biggio is a hall of famer. Deepster said that Biggio was just as good offensively as Jeter, which he is not.

I love Dove's contribution to all of the boards , but make no mistake. He clearly referred to Biggio as a compiler and implied it as negative.

 

[superjohn]

I don't give a care what you call Biggio, just don't call him as good as Jeter.

 

[Husky25]

I understand what you are saying...sort of. I don't recall, so I'll just assume you are a Yankee fan (Otherwise the all out Jeter Defense doesn't make sense). For the record, I compared Biggio to Cal Ripkin, another first ballot, sure fire HoFer.

Deepster does have a point with his "compiler" argument. Pretty much all HOFers are compilers (except maybe for Sandy Koufax) and if Biggio played in a major baseball market, the last 40 posts don't happen.

 

[zyron]

Deepster does have a point with his "compiler" argument. Pretty much all HOFers are compilers (except maybe for Sandy Koufax) and if Biggio played in a major baseball market, the last 40 posts don't happen.

One player who got no HOF consideration who was a offensive force was Albert Belle. Horrible human being but was a monster hitter. If he was able to play a few more years he would of had to be in.

 

[Husky25]

One player who got no HOF consideration who was a offensive force was Albert Belle. Horrible human being but was a monster hitter. If he was able to play a few more years he would of had to be in.

No one said the system wasn't broke...but Biggio is a deserving HoFer.

 

[Dove]

If I was a voter I would look at Biggio andpretty much ALMOST vote him in. I did like him a lot as a player and he had great value as a positionalplayer. But washe among the best? He now symbolizes the Hall of the Very Good.

 

[Husky25]

If I was a voter I would look at Biggio andpretty much ALMOST vote him in. I did like him a lot as a player and he had great value as a positionalplayer. But washe among the best? He now symbolizes the Hall of the Very Good.

Phil Rizzuto is president of that club. Billy Maz is VP.

 

[Dove]

Rizzutto getting in was am mockery of the process.

Back to Biggio...take out his cup of coffee and I rate his seasons as:

5 were meh
7 were good
2 were real good
5 were great

He batted in front of juicer Caminitti and probable juicers in Bags and Berkman. Deepster would score 100 runs in front of them. And I think Biggio juiced.

 

[G0UCONN]

While on topic of middle IFers....how does Jeff Kent not get in? He was a jacka ss and all but by numbers as a 2Bman....he belongs

 

[mauconnfan]

I understand what you are saying...sort of. I don't recall, so I'll just assume you are a Yankee fan (Otherwise the all out Jeter Defense doesn't make sense). For the record, I compared Biggio to Cal Ripkin, another first ballot, sure fire HoFer.

Deepster does have a point with his "compiler" argument. Pretty much all HOFers are compilers (except maybe for Sandy Koufax) and if Biggio played in a major baseball market, the last 40 posts don't happen.

Ripken is a better comparison. I mean 29 points on the batting average is a lot, so the Jeter comparison isn't as close although many of the other numbers are closer.

 

[Excalibur]

I'm not comparing who is the better player and factoring in postseasons or "clutch" play. I'm saying, to label Biggio as a "compiler" in a negative way, Jeter skates off without that label because he had a higher batting average in a number of seasons?

If that's the case? Biggio has similar or better totals in many cumulative categories. Safe to say he was the more consistent player over a longer period of time? Or is Jeter just a "compiler" too that stayed on and socked away enough hits over his last 3-4 years to make him look better?

You are really dismissive of the gap in batting average. 30 points over a career is a big freaking gap . . .

 

[Excalibur]

If I was a voter I would look at Biggio andpretty much ALMOST vote him in. I did like him a lot as a player and he had great value as a positionalplayer. But washe among the best? He now symbolizes the Hall of the Very Good.

There are lots of guys who were very good. Not many were very good for a very long time.

 

[Husky25]

You are really dismissive of the gap in batting average. 30 points over a career is a big freaking gap . . .

Because batting average is more or less a useless stat. Biggio and Jeter are pretty even in terms of safely reaching first base. My view is the only way you can make OBP a better stat is to consider omitting Fielders' Choice because the batter still produce an out on that play.

 

[Excalibur]

Because batting average is more or less a useless stat. Biggio and Jeter are pretty even in terms of safely reaching first base. My view is the only way you can make OBP a better stat is to consider omitting Fielders' Choice because the batter still produce an out on that play.

Well, Jeter does have a .20 advantage in OPS.

In any event, batting average may not be the best measure of a hitter's ability, but it is important to the fossils who vote, and not entirely useless. Runners rarely advance two bases on a walk.

 

[zyron]

Because batting average is more or less a useless stat. Biggio and Jeter are pretty even in terms of safely reaching first base. My view is the only way you can make OBP a better stat is to consider omitting Fielders' Choice because the batter still produce an out on that play.

A fielder's choice makes the OBP go down, as it should.

 

[Husky25]

you can steal second base. I believe Biggio has more steals.

Well, Jeter does have a .20 advantage in OPS.

In any event, batting average may not be the best measure of a hitter's ability, but it is important to the fossils who vote, and not entirely useless. Runners rarely advance two bases on a walk.

 

[methodology]

I understand what you are saying...sort of. I don't recall, so I'll just assume you are a Yankee fan (Otherwise the all out Jeter Defense doesn't make sense). For the record, I compared Biggio to Cal Ripkin, another first ballot, sure fire HoFer.

Deepster does have a point with his "compiler" argument. Pretty much all HOFers are compilers (except maybe for Sandy Koufax) and if Biggio played in a major baseball market, the last 40 posts don't happen.

You in no way can compare Biggio to Ripken. Ripken is the 2nd greatest SS to ever play baseball behind Honus Wagner. He revolutionized the SS position. He won 2 MVPs and was one of the best players in baseball in the 80s to early 90s. Baseball offensively was completely different during that time frame and playing in Memorial Stadium definitely impacted Ripken's offensive stats during those years. Biggio played in a more offensive era. If looking at Raw stats they look similar but in actuality they are 2 completely different offensive players.

Biggio is well deserving of his HOF induction. Anyone saying otherwise is blind to his accomplishments. This is one of the few years the writers got the voting right. The CT Post writer should have his voting rights taken away. Absolutely no way you can vote Mussina and not Pedro, like he did.

Also people pointing to Jeter's oWar compared to Biggio must take into account WAR is a counting stat. Jeter had more ABs in a stronger lineup which will help to make his oWAR higher. If you look at OPS+ Jetter is at 115 and Biggio 112 (Ripken 112 also). OPS+ is adjusted for league and park so they are normalized.

 

[zyron]

Also people pointing to Jeter's oWar compared to Biggio must take into account WAR is a counting stat. Jeter had more ABs in a stronger lineup which will help to make his oWAR higher. If you look at OPS+ Jetter is at 115 and Biggio 112 (Ripken 112 also). OPS+ is adjusted for league and park so they are normalized.

Over their careers, Jeter had less than 100 more plate appearances than Biggio, that had literally no effect.

 

[mauconnfan]

You in no way can compare Biggio to Ripken. Ripken is the 2nd greatest SS to ever play baseball behind Honus Wagner. He revolutionized the SS position. He won 2 MVPs and was one of the best players in baseball in the 80s to early 90s. Baseball offensively was completely different during that time frame and playing in Memorial Stadium definitely impacted Ripken's offensive stats during those years. Biggio played in a more offensive era. If looking at Raw stats they look similar but in actuality they are 2 completely different offensive players.

Biggio is well deserving of his HOF induction. Anyone saying otherwise is blind to his accomplishments. This is one of the few years the writers got the voting right. The CT Post writer should have his voting rights taken away. Absolutely no way you can vote Mussina and not Pedro, like he did.

Also people pointing to Jeter's oWar compared to Biggio must take into account WAR is a counting stat. Jeter had more ABs in a stronger lineup which will help to make his oWAR higher. If you look at OPS+ Jetter is at 115 and Biggio 112 (Ripken 112 also). OPS+ is adjusted for league and park so they are normalized.

Ripken was a great SS but let's not go whacky here. He was an all star basically every year even when he hit.250-.260 which was often? His "power" numbers held on after '92 when they built him a shoe box of a stadium where fly balls everywhere else were HR's. He did revolutionize the position with the bigger, power hitters could actually play there in the bigs. His numebers are comparable to Biggio because he is comparable to Biggio except HR's for the most part.

And Jeter and the strong lineup is somewhat fair but how many runs does Biggio score if they don't let Caminitti and Bagwell use the roids? So many variables hence why so many of the stats you guys look at are kind of crap. It's baseball - did you see him hit, throw, steal bases, run the bases, score, hot for power, hit in the clutch - pretty simple. All of these guys played the game the way it was supposed to be played and hence HOFers. But Jeter and Ripken are more comparable than Ripken and Wagner. Neither are the 2nd best SS's ever in no way, although the options aren't tremendous. Ripken and Yount are comparable and Ernie Banks also has to be in the mix I would think. Wagner is so much better it's a tough call I guess. As you said the others are such weak hitters and some don't even belong - Phil!!

 

[Deepster]

Let me reset exactly what I'm saying once again because I'm having my point twisted and taken out of context.

Dove called Biggio a "compiler" in a negative way. I pointed out that, over 20 years, the numbers a player accumulates or "compiles" was pretty friggin' similar for Jeter.

I know Jeter had a higher batting average. I recognize Jeter has some better fancy newfangled metrics that I don't understand. I am not suggesting Biggio is as good or better than Jeter. All I'm saying is, if Biggio is deemed to be a compiler, it's ironic that Jeter's career totals are virtually identical in a LOT of buckets.

 

[methodology]

Over their careers, Jeter had less than 100 more plate appearances than Biggio, that had literally no effect.

Biggio had 170 more (HBP, Sacrifice flys, and sac hits) than Jeter. Jeter ended having close to 300 more ABs, or about half a season worth or ABs even though he played in less games ove his career. The reason Jeter was able to get to the plate more is because the lineup turnover on the Yankees was much better. Biggio had a pitcher, automatic out, batting in front of him. Are you really going to say that had literally NO effect on Biggio's potential oWAR over his career? How many RBIs did Biggio miss out on because of that? How many times was the pitcher unable to move th runner over that Biggio could have driven in or how many times did the pitcher ground into a double play? How many times did that automatic pitcher out cause an inning to end early with Biggio in scoring position rather than there being 1 less out and an opportunity to score a run?

There are countless ways Biggio had his oWAR effected when compared to Jeter's situation, who batted in one of if not the best offensive lineups in all of baseball during the coarse of his career. To say it had literally no effect is being oblivious. The RBI and Run differential are directly linked to the other players in the lineup. Biggio was basically walking up to the plate with an extra out vs. Jeter

 

[Waquoit]

The system is skewed to favor compilers. Take Don Sutton. He was a good pitcher. But he was rarely the ace of his own pitching staff. Never won a Cy Young (only finished as high a 3rd once), only won 20 games once. But he was pretty good for a long time so that makes him great? I have always considered Yaz the ultimate compiler. But at least he has 3 batting titles, a triple crown and the Impossible Dream. Even so, at his best was he ever as good as a guy like Dave Parker?