The Hall of Fame

[Dove]

The door opens today for Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez and perhaps John Smoltz.

It looks like Craig "The Compiler" Biggio may just get in, too.

But what about Mike Piazza? Or Jeff Bagwell?

MLB Columnists are all over the map...

HALL OF FAME

 

[Deepster]

Doesn't "the Compiler" have pretty much the same stats as Jeter? What am I missing there?

 

[zyron]

Doesn't "the Compiler" have pretty much the same stats as Jeter? What am I missing there?

What is missing is even an ounce of baseball knowledge on your part. Every post about Jeter you can count on you to say something about him. Did he f#$k your girlfriend or something?

 

[Dove]

I am not anti-Biggio as I liked him a lot. But he was on the good side of meh. Jeter had 8 seasons with a + .300 avg to Biggio's one. Biggio never led the league in hits while Jeter did twice. And Biggio had a sparkling .281 career average while Jeter only cruised along at .310.

And then there is the playoff thing. 158 games hitting .308 for DJ while Biggio wilted at .234 in 40 games.


And Biggio just made the Hall of Fame. With Pedro, Johnson and Smoltz.

 

[zyron]

Jeter had 8 seasons with a + .300 avg to Biggio's one.

I think you mean 200 hit seasons because Jeter hit over .300 more than eight times.

 

[Deepster]

Pretty sure that, over 20 seasons, they "compiled" the same totals. You know, outside of playoff average or extra base hits with runners in scoring position.

 

[Dove]

I think you mean 200 hit seasons because Jeter hit over .300 more than eight times.

Yep, 8 200-hit seasons.

 

[zyron]

Pretty sure that, over 20 seasons, they "compiled" the same totals. You know, outside of playoff average or extra base hits with runners in scoring position.

Then explain this, lifetime leaders in offensive WAR:

1.Babe Ruth+ (22)155.1L
2.Ty Cobb+ (24)150.9L
3.Barry Bonds (22)142.6L
4.Willie Mays+ (22)136.4R
5.Hank Aaron+ (23)131.8R
6.Ted Williams+ (19)126.3L
7.Stan Musial+ (22)124.6L
8.Tris Speaker+ (22)123.6L
9.Honus Wagner+ (21)123.0R
10.Rogers Hornsby+ (23)121.6R
11.Eddie Collins+ (25)119.6L
12.Mickey Mantle+ (18)116.0B
13.Alex Rodriguez (20, 38)113.0R
14.Lou Gehrig+ (17)112.1L
15.Frank Robinson+ (21)106.6R
16.Rickey Henderson+ (25)104.2R
17.Joe Morgan+ (22)103.7L
18.Mel Ott+ (22)103.5L
19.Nap Lajoie+ (21)97.8R
20.Derek Jeter (20)95.5R

Jeter is 20th all time, and everyone except Gehrig, Mantle and Williams played the same, or more seasons.

 

[superjohn]

Doesn't "the Compiler" have pretty much the same stats as Jeter? What am I missing there?

No

 

[superjohn]

The Hall of Fame is an absolute joke. No Bonds, Rose or Clemens and no Piazza and Bagwell because of speculstion/guess work. I used to love going to Cooperstown as a kid but I'll never step foot in that building ever again.

 

[mauconnfan]

The Hall of Fame is an absolute joke. No Bonds, Rose or Clemens and no Piazza and Bagwell because of speculstion/guess work. I used to love going to Cooperstown as a kid but I'll never step foot in that building ever again.

I can see Rose but the steroid guys. If you're a guy who loved baseball as a "kid" and loved Cooperstown how can you not speculate? I mean Bonds did it - he would have gotten in if he didn't fall prey to the cheating but he did. Does he deserve to be next to Ruth, Williams, Gehrig, DiMaggio? No way......nor does Rog. Now Bagwell is an obvious too but no evidence, there an argument and the same can be said for Piazza. They did the stuff and they played in the steroid era and patterns don't prove it but make them the subject of discussion.

It's not the same HOF and it sucks I agree, but cheaters cant't go in. Rose deserves to be in there!

 

[mauconnfan]

Doesn't "the Compiler" have pretty much the same stats as Jeter? What am I missing there?

Pick a better argument Deep.

 

[superjohn]

I can see Rose but the steroid guys. If you're a guy who loved baseball as a "kid" and loved Cooperstown how can you not speculate? I mean Bonds did it - he would have gotten in if he didn't fall prey to the cheating but he did. Does he deserve to be next to Ruth, Williams, Gehrig, DiMaggio? No way.nor does Rog. Now Bagwell is an obvious too but no evidence, there an argument and the same can be said for Piazza. They did the stuff and they played in the steroid era and patterns don't prove it but make them the subject of discussion.

It's not the same HOF and it sucks I agree, but cheaters cant't go in. Rose deserves to be in there!

By your logic nobody from the "steroid era" should be in the HOF.

 

[Waquoit]

It's not the same HOF and it sucks I agree, but cheaters cant't go in.

Baloney, the HOF is full of "cheaters"
Any voter not voting for Bonds yet voted for Gaylord Perry should have their ballot yanked.

 

[Husky25]

Pick a better argument Deep.

I am not anti-Biggio as I liked him a lot. But he was on the good side of meh. Jeter had 8 seasons with a + .300 avg to Biggio's one. Biggio never led the league in hits while Jeter did twice. And Biggio had a sparkling .281 career average while Jeter only cruised along at .310.

And then there is the playoff thing. 158 games hitting .308 for DJ while Biggio wilted at .234 in 40 games.


And Biggio just made the Hall of Fame. With Pedro, Johnson and Smoltz.

I am anti - "only a compiler" argument. Staying healthy and helping your team every day is just as important a skill as hitting home runs and catching fly balls. By that logic, Cal Ripken (who's ratio stats (AVG/OBP/SLG/OPS) are right in line with Biggio.) doesn't belong in the HoF either. Biggio also played 5 defensive positions, including catcher at an all star level (113 and 139 games in 1990 and 1991, respectively). Except for homeruns (Biggio was a top of the order guy. Wasn't an expectation and he still averaged 17 vs. Ripken's 23), their 162 game averages are virtually identical.

 

[Waquoit]

Biggio belongs in the Hall of Very Good. I think he got points for not being connected to PED's. Kinda like Rice.

 

[Deepster]

Listen. Dove called Craig Biggio "The Compiler". He didn't reference his WAR or WAR+ or OWAR or DWAR or QWAR or his Flip Play or his playoff hits or anything else.

They both played exactly 20 seasons.

Jeter / Biggio
Games: 2747 / 2850
At Bats: 11,195 / 10,876
Hits: 3,465 / 3,060
2B: 554 / 668
3B: 66 / 55
HR: 260 / 291
RBI: 1,311 / 1,175
SB: 358 / 414
BB: 1,082 / 1,160
K: 1,840 / 1,753

As far as being a "compiler", explain to me how Jeter is any different?

 

[Husky25]

Biggio belongs in the Hall of Very Good. I think he got points for not being connected to PED's. Kinda like Rice.

He gets points for being a great baseball player. If Biggio played in New York, Los Angeles, Boston, St. Louis or Baltimore, this discussion does not happen. I'm not saying that Biggio belongs in the same discussion as Ruth, Mantle, or Mays, but he belongs with Cal Ripken (as I demonstrate above)...and Jeter.

And hate to tell you, but Biggio has been connected to PEDs.

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/news/2011/01/craig_biggio_steriod_user.php

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8832348/craig-biggio-says-lumped-accused-ped-users-unfair

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/12/26/murray-chass-thinks-craig-biggio-did-steroids/

 

[superjohn]

Listen. Dove called Craig Biggio "The Compiler". He didn't reference his WAR or WAR+ or OWAR or DWAR or QWAR or his Flip Play or his playoff hits or anything else.

They both played exactly 20 seasons.

Jeter / Biggio
Games: 2747 / 2850
At Bats: 11,195 / 10,876
Hits: 3,465 / 3,060
2B: 554 / 668
3B: 66 / 55
HR: 260 / 291
RBI: 1,311 / 1,175
SB: 358 / 414
BB: 1,082 / 1,160
K: 1,840 / 1,753

As far as being a "compiler", explain to me how Jeter is any different?

If you're just talking about regular season Jeter's career batting average is .310 Biggio's is .281. Jeter had 12 seasons with over a .300 average, Biggio had 4. Jeter had 8 seasons with over 200 hits, Biggio had 1. It's kind of silly to leave out postseason careers when talking about players accomplishments but these are just a few of the differences between their regular season careers. They really weren't my much alike at all.

 

[Deepster]

If you're just talking about regular season Jeter's career batting average is .310 Biggio's is .281. Jeter had 12 seasons with over a .300 average, Biggio had 4. Jeter had 8 seasons with over 200 hits, Biggio had 1. It's kind of silly to leave out postseason careers when talking about players accomplishments but these are just a few of the differences between their regular season careers. They really weren't my much alike at all.

I'm not comparing who is the better player and factoring in postseasons or "clutch" play. I'm saying, to label Biggio as a "compiler" in a negative way, Jeter skates off without that label because he had a higher batting average in a number of seasons?

If that's the case? Biggio has similar or better totals in many cumulative categories. Safe to say he was the more consistent player over a longer period of time? Or is Jeter just a "compiler" too that stayed on and socked away enough hits over his last 3-4 years to make him look better?

 

[Dove]

If Jeter didn't have that playoff history he would be a compiler, too. But he starred at SS in New York City under the bright lights. Major points there.

 

[superjohn]

I'm not comparing who is the better player and factoring in postseasons or "clutch" play. I'm saying, to label Biggio as a "compiler" in a negative way, Jeter skates off without that label because he had a higher batting average in a number of seasons?

If that's the case? Biggio has similar or better totals in many cumulative categories. Safe to say he was the more consistent player over a longer period of time? Or is Jeter just a "compiler" too that stayed on and socked away enough hits over his last 3-4 years to make him look better?

"Jeter socked enough hits over his last 3-4 years to make him look better?" Jeter's last 2 seasons he batted .190 and .256, he certainly didn't play those years to stat pad, he already had 3000 hits, he stuck around to try and make another run which didn't happen. Before those last 2 years he was still elite and one of the best hitters in the game. I posted the 30 point discrepancy in their career batting averages as one of the many things I think that made them very different which you seemed to conveniently leave out.

 

[Husky25]

If Jeter didn't have that playoff history he would be a compiler, too. But he starred at SS in New York City under the bright lights. Major points there.

By that logic, Jeff Hostetler is a better QB than Dan Marino. He has to be. He has a SB ring and did it in Metro-NY!! And only him by the way. Just like baseball, football is played one-on-one.

 

[zyron]

I'm not comparing who is the better player and factoring in postseasons or "clutch" play. I'm saying, to label Biggio as a "compiler" in a negative way, Jeter skates off without that label because he had a higher batting average in a number of seasons?

If that's the case? Biggio has similar or better totals in many cumulative categories. Safe to say he was the more consistent player over a longer period of time? Or is Jeter just a "compiler" too that stayed on and socked away enough hits over his last 3-4 years to make him look better?

So, lets ignore off WAR (Which shows Jeter is much better and top 20 all time), the postseason (Jeter one of the best all time), the 400 more hits (in less games) and the higher OBP because this doesn't fit your idiotic argument.

Safe to say he was the more consistent player over a longer period of time. Another stupid argument by you. Jeter had 2 bad seasons ( I am not counting 2013 when he played 17 games but you can if you want) while Biggio had 6 bad seasons and 3 below average seasons. So please explain to me how he was more consistant.

You really don't know much about baseball if you think what your are saying is true.

 

[Deepster]

So, lets ignore off WAR (Which shows Jeter is much better and top 20 all time), the postseason (Jeter one of the best all time), the 400 more hits (in less games) and the higher OBP because this doesn't fit your idiotic argument.

Safe to say he was the more consistent player over a longer period of time. Another stupid argument by you. Jeter had 2 bad seasons ( I am not counting 2013 when he played 17 games but you can if you want) while Biggio had 6 bad seasons and 3 below average seasons. So please explain to me how he was more consistant.

You really don't know much about baseball if you think what your are saying is true.

Then how does Biggio have virtually the same career totals over the same span of years/games?