Texas AD Squashing FSU Talk?

[nelsonmuntz]

Who cares about the strength of schedule from last year? Is Houston a better program than Tennessee? Miami has won titles. FSU has won titles. VT, GT and Clemson have been very, very good. Even BC. Maryland has been good, North Carolina has been good. Just because Missouri and Oklahoma State just both recently had the greatest seasons in their history doesn't make them powerhouses (and one is now gone anyway). Kansas won a freaking Orange Bowl a few years ago and now they stink again. In 1990 Colorado looked like team that would be good for years to come. Yes, the Big 12 has an excellent recent history in football. But look at the first 5 BCS championship games. 10 teams (current conf affiliation): SEC: 1 B10: 2 B12: 1 ACC: 6. This is not ancient history. Lately it flipped. It will flip again, and the Pac 10 or Big 10 or even the ACC will go on a run.

How many years since the 2003 realignment has the ACC been better than the Big 12 by any measure? The Big 12 had a rough year in 2007 or so, but otherwise the leagues are not comparable. And the Big 12 just replaced 4 teams that hadn't done much of anything the past 10 years with two programs that have been ranked for most of the past decade. And I am not just talking at the top, where the Big 12 would dominate easily. Top to bottom, the Big 12 has been much better than the ACC in football since realignment, and the difference is only getting bigger.

 

[RS9999X]

FSU is definitely going to be trailing Texas if they stay in the ACC.

The disparity comes in Tier 3 revenues. Texas gets about $15MM a year through the LHN, while Oklahoma may get $6 to $8 million a year depending on which estimate you believe. Apparently a few schools are going to pool their Tier 3 content, and expect to get about $4MM each for it. So Iowa State will be making $25MM a year while FSU is making $17MM. How does that make Seminole fans feel?

Another way to look at it. FSUs Tier 3 Network is held by either IMG ($6.5 mil) or Raycom (who paid $3.5 mil per team built into the ESPN contract). OUs Tier 3 is IMG $7.5 mil and Fox rumored to be worth $4 to $5 mil (still in negotiation--likely much less than the $8 mil mentioned above for Sooner reruns). Maybe a $2.5 mil difference no more.

That leaves the real differences--

1) the ABC/ESPN Tiers I and II shares of the ACC contract are worth about $13 mil average (after deducting RayCom and the ACC Conferecne share) plus

2) ACC Bowl and NCAA Tourney distributions which are worth less than the B12

4) The B12 can add a Conference game.

I figure around $10 mil worst case and it isn't in Tier III.

FSU fans think the whole state is drooling for FSU reruns. Mention the word "Tebow" and the teeth gnashing starts. Kinda like orcs. Say "Tebow reruns" and they start killing each other. Say "NY Jets Games 24/7" and its war.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Your post cracks me up. It is extremely skewed, from the way you try to marginalize Mizzou and Oklahoma State instead of Maryland and UNC as "short term good teams" to the fact that you were extremely careful to type "current conf affiliation." You did that so that some readers wouldn't realize that the ACC number would go down to 3 (all FSU) and the Big East number would jump to 3 (Miami, Va Tech). Miami and Va Tech haven't been back to the National Championship game since they joined the ACC. That's the whole point of the posts that preceded yours; that especially in the case of Miami, they have name recognition without having the high-powered team of the past.

Are you willing to give SMU credit for 3 national championships as a school? I'm guessing not. How many other programs would have climbed out of the ashes of "The Death Penalty" though, I wonder...

Of course I give SMU credit. But Clemson has a title and by that measure GT has four. I think Mizzou and North Carolina are roughly comparable football programs. North Carolina is a more valuable property because of basketball, baseball and academics, but the football programs are not disimilar. Oklahoma State has been ok in the past, but historically, no better than say BC at best. Yes, K-State would clean Maryland's clock during the Snyder years. Before that it would have been the opposite. My point is merely that FSU would be stupid to join a league where it has little in common with the other members rather than upping its own game, and lifting the ACC with them. If it could get into the SEC, then that would make sense.

 

[UConnDan97]

Of course I give SMU credit. But Clemson has a title and by that measure GT has four. I think Mizzou and North Carolina are roughly comparable football programs. North Carolina is a more valuable property because of basketball, baseball and academics, but the football programs are not disimilar. Oklahoma State has been ok in the past, but historically, no better than say BC at best. Yes, K-State would clean Maryland's clock during the Snyder years. Before that it would have been the opposite. My point is merely that FSU would be stupid to join a league where it has little in common with the other members rather than upping its own game, and lifting the ACC with them. If it could get into the SEC, then that would make sense.

I think the point is that, by going to the Big12, Florida State WOULD be upping their game. They are trying to create (or re-create) a buzz about that program in order to win back coveted recruits from the Floridas and Alabamas of the world. It is no secret that the Big East and ACC are thought of as the 5th and 6th best conferences around the country (we don't need to argue which is which; just the fact that the nation believes it is enough). And a 5-star, top 50 recruit is looking at a school like Florida State and saying, "They can't even win the ACC. I'm heading to Texas, LSU, or Alabama." Sure, they will land a couple, but not the way they were landing them in the 90's and early 2000's. If FSU moves to the Big12, they can sell the fact that they are going to go up against the Texas's and Oklahomas of the world. They would love to be in the SEC, but that ain't happening so long as Florida exists. The next best thing is the Big12 for them.

Oh, and there's the extra money...

 

[HuskyHawk]

How many years since the 2003 realignment has the ACC been better than the Big 12 by any measure? The Big 12 had a rough year in 2007 or so, but otherwise the leagues are not comparable. And the Big 12 just replaced 4 teams that hadn't done much of anything the past 10 years with two programs that have been ranked for most of the past decade. And I am not just talking at the top, where the Big 12 would dominate easily. Top to bottom, the Big 12 has been much better than the ACC in football since realignment, and the difference is only getting bigger.

Of course it has. So what? Oregon used to suck. Colorado was great and now sucks. K-State was the worst program in D1A before Snyder. The assumption that the B12, or SEC is on top now and will stay on top and widen its lead is absurd and is not borne out by history. I will freely concede that Oklahoma is good, has been good and will continue to be good. I think the same is true for UT. Apart from that, there are no teams in the Big 12 about which you can make that claim. Do you really think TCU is an upgrade over A&M? That is very shortsighted. Did you predict that Michigan would be mediocre for nearly a decade? That Nebraska would be pretty weak between Osbourne and Pelini? That a crappy glorfied community college in Boise would become a power? Do you think that will last? Really? Maybe Miami will never come back...and maybe they will.

For the record, I'm originally from Big 8 country, went to law school at KU (when they were pretty good believe it or not) and have always rooted for Big 8/12 teams before UConn made the jump. So I'm not biased against the Big 12. I was thrilled when it saved itself from lower tier status by embracing a wide open passing style several years back. It wasn't long ago that the OU wishbone and Nebraska's I formations became ineffective. The suggestion that they can't pull off the same thing at NC State, GT, Clemson or anywhere else is folly. We see it happen over and over again.

 

[Dann]

alot of interesting comments today already. Bobby B said he wants fsu to stay in the acc. all of a sudden JD(b10) is talking and they never talk expansion. Delany on expansion: 'Tectonic plates are still hot' in CFB, so B1G—though it's happy at 12—is monitoring other leagues. also says that the b10 will look to get the pinstripe bowl for next cycle, yes u read that right. the league is worried about cold weather for the bowl game but it wants nyc in the winter. interesting...

edit:
also brian ethridge(sp?) the baylor guy i have talked about before being right on with stuff came out with those 10 teams that contacted the b12 after all the tv stuff came out. those teams were
Louisville, Pitt, Miami, Florida State, Clemson, Maryland, Virginia Tech, Notre Dame, Georgia Tech, and BYU.

he talks about how each one of those schools did there homework on tier 3 stuff for each schools and the findings were that a move would get them more $$ in the b12. also with certain combos of these teams for 14 or 16, the leagues contract would be between 25-28 mil per team a year. wow thats a lot. also he said that while tex and possible fsu would have there own networks already in place for tier 3, if certain schools in this group made the move that fox or even nbc would enter into a new tv agreement for the other schools tier 3 stuff which could be valued around another 4mil per team a year. yea, the wheels are turning.

 

[ZooCougar]

Yeah SU is tied for 6th most alums in the NFL hall of fame.

True but, you need to be on Medicare and be on a liquid diet in order actually remember who those people are and/or actually have seen them play.

You might as well be some Yale guy coming here to talk shxt.

 

[docsu]

I was clarifying IMatt's statement. I'm not sure how relevant that stat is today.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Another way to look at it. FSUs Tier 3 Network is held by either IMG ($6.5 mil) or Raycom (who paid $3.5 mil per team built into the ESPN contract). OUs Tier 3 is IMG $7.5 mil and Fox rumored to be worth $4 to $5 mil (still in negotiation--likely much less than the $8 mil mentioned above for Sooner reruns). Maybe a $2.5 mil difference no more.

That leaves the real differences--

1) the ABC/ESPN Tiers I and II shares of the ACC contract are worth about $13 mil average (after deducting RayCom and the ACC Conferecne share) plus

2) ACC Bowl and NCAA Tourney distributions which are worth less than the B12

4) The B12 can add a Conference game.

I figure around $10 mil worst case and it isn't in Tier III.

FSU fans think the whole state is drooling for FSU reruns. Mention the word "Tebow" and the teeth gnashing starts. Kinda like orcs. Say "Tebow reruns" and they start killing each other. Say "NY Jets Games 24/7" and its war.

I am too lazy to look it up, and you probably have it at your fingertips, but that IMG contract isn't a Tier 3 so much as a re-marketing agreement for the university, right? That is completely portable, and something they would get in the Big 12 on top of the Tier 1, 2 and 3, right?

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I think Delaney sealed the ACC's fate today. How could FSU and Clemson stay if the Big 10 is sniffing round for new members? UNC and UVa are both top prizes for the B1G, and losing those two would do a lot more damage to the ACC than losing FSU and Clemson.

 

[Dann]

I think Delaney sealed the ACC's fate today. How could FSU and Clemson stay if the Big 10 is sniffing round for new members? UNC and UVa are both top prizes for the B1G, and losing those two would do a lot more damage to the ACC than losing FSU and Clemson.

i think so also. but i do also suspect they hes not going to add just 2. i think he will get to 16 on one move (or atleast one decision to add).

nd
uva/unc
md/ruty/uconn/gt
kansas/mizzu/bc

i think this may be his shortlist now.
depending on nd and ruty vs uconn, things are going to get interesting.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

The entire list for the Big 10 is:

1) ND
2) Texas
3) UNC
4) UVa





5) Maryland


There is no one else on the list. If the Big 10 wanted Oklahoma, Missouri, Rutgers or any of the other schools you mentioned, they would already have them. ND and Texas are not realistic, but UNC and UVa would be tremendous additions for the Big 10.

Edit: for Delaney to make this statement, it is very possible that conversations are already underway.

 

[The Funster]

The entire list for the Big 10 is:

1) ND
2) Texas
3) UNC
4) UVa





5) Maryland


There is no one else on the list. If the Big 10 wanted Oklahoma, Missouri, Rutgers or any of the other schools you mentioned, they would already have them. ND and Texas are not realistic, but UNC and UVa would be tremendous additions for the Big 10.

Edit: for Delaney to make this statement, it is very possible that conversations are already underway.

What is your basis for this list?

 

[Dann]

with the contract texas is going to get, i don't see them or ok leaving now for a northern conf. they are the big dogs in a conf now that has life compared to a year ago. they can pluck fsu/clem and others along with the b10 getting a couple schools and basically form the bcs 4 team playoff on there own with bids between the big4.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Almost 5th or 6th

Syracuse is the 15th winningest program in Division 1-A college football history

Only USC (11), ND (10), UM (8) and Ohio St (8) have more members in the Pro Football Hall of Fame than Syracuse (7)

Syracuse is the 5th winningest program in Division I college basketball history, trailing only Kentucky, UNC, Kansas and Duke

Syracuse has the 7th highest winning percentage in Division I college basketball history

Football All Americans (by year)

Name Year Team
Horr, Marquis F. (Bill) 1908 First
Schlacter, Christopher P. 1915 First
White, Harold A. 1915 First
Cobb, Alfred R. 1917 First
Alexander, J.A. (Joe) 1918-19-20 First
Usher, Louis C. 1918 First
Gulick, Bertrand 1920 First
MacRae, Edander G. (Pete) 1923 First
Hanson, Victor 1926 First
Steen, James 1934 First
Fleck, Robert R. 1952-53 First
Brown, James N. 1956 First
Luciano, Ronald M. 1958 First
Davis, Roger W. 1959 First
Mautino, Fred J. 1959 First
Yates, Robert E. 1959 First
Davis, Ernest R. 1960-61 First
Killorin, Patrick M. 1964-65 First
Little, Floyd D. 1964, 1965, 1966 First
Brown, Charles E. 1965 First
Bugenhagen, Gary A. 1966 First
Csonka, Lawrence R. 1966-67 First
Kyasky, Anthony J. 1968 First
Ehrmann, Joseph C. 1970 First
Myers, Thomas P. 1971 First
Preston, Raymond N. 1975 First
Monk, J. Arthur 1979 First
Anderson, Gary 1981 First
Charles, Michael 1982 First
Green, Timothy J. 1984-85 First
Gregory, Theodore 1987 First
McPherson, Donald R. 1987 First
Paul, Markus D. 1988 First
Flannery, John 1990 First
Ismail, Qadry R. 1991 First
Gedney, Christopher J. 1992 First
Harrison, Marvin D. 1995 First
Abrams, Kevin R. 1995-96 First
Darius, Donovin L. 1997 First
Johnson, Kevin L. 1998 First
Freeney, Dwight 2001 First

BOWL GAMES (13-9-1)
SEASON BOWL OPPONENT RESULT SCORE
2010 Pinstripe Kansas State W 36-34
2004 Champs Sports Georgia Tech L 14-51
2001 Insight.com Kansas State W 26-3
1999 Music City Kentucky W 20-13
1998 Orange Florida L 10-31
1997 Fiesta Kansas State L 18-35
1996 Liberty Houston W 30-17
1995 Gator Clemson W 41-0
1992 Fiesta Colorado W 26-22
1991 Hall Of Fame Ohio State W 24-17
1990 Aloha Arizona W 28-0
1989 Peach Georgia W 19-18
1988 Hall Of Fame Louisiana State W 23-10
1987 Sugar Auburn T 16-16
1985 Cherry Maryland L 18-35
1979 Independence McNeese State W 31-7
1966 Gator Tennessee L 12-18
1964 Sugar Louisiana State L 10-13
1961 Liberty Miami FL W 15-14
1959 Cotton Texas W 23-14
1958 Orange Oklahoma L 6-21
1956 Cotton Texas Christian L 27-28
1952 Orange Alabama L 6-61

 

[nelsonmuntz]

What is your basis for this list?

Basis for the list is:

a) The Big 10 has looked at and passed on every school from the Big East or Big 12 in the last year or so. I am sure that Oklahoma, Missouri, Okie Lite, Kansas, Rutgers, Syracuse, Pitt, and UConn have all approached the Big 10 in the last year, because all were looking for a home, and the Big 10 didn't take any of them. Unless something has changed to make one of those schools more attractive, they already have their answer from the Big 10.

b) Texas and ND are rumored to have approached the Big 10, but it was complicated and the Big 10 passed. Either that, or they were never interested in the Big 10 in the first place. Either way, nothing has changed to make them likely to join the Big 10.

c) Delaney has said in the past he wants new markets and would look to "demographic trends" to drive expansion.

http://blog.al.com/solomon/2010/05/delany_demographics_in_south_m.html

North Carolina and Virginia are fast growing border states that, unlike the rest of the South, are increasingly affluent. UNC and UVa are the anchor public universities in both states.

d) UNC and UVa are both top public universities and members of the AAU. They are the two most prestigious public universities available for any conference to add.

Maryland kind of meets the threshold, but their finances are a mess, and it is not as prestigious as UVa or UNC. I don't see anyone else from the ACC or SEC making the cut for either academic or market reasons. I also don't think the Big 10 will add a program that is #2 in a market.

 

[ZooCougar]

Make sure you tell the recruits about that 61-6 ass whipping in 1852.

 

[Dann]

tcu announced thats its 100% sold out for this year already. only standing room tix will be be sold later....

 

[RS9999X]

I am too lazy to look it up, and you probably have it at your fingertips, but that IMG contract isn't a Tier 3 so much as a re-marketing agreement for the university, right? That is completely portable, and something they would get in the Big 12 on top of the Tier 1, 2 and 3, right?

Exactly. Portable with minor tweaks. And the $3.5 million Raycom and B12 Network deals are likely a financial wash for FSU.

Where they are really screwed is with the ABC/ESPN contract. Add the B12 conference game and they are down $8 or $9 million on that alone. $13 mil versus $22 plus the NCAA tourney and Bowl differentials in most years.

I can buy the $128 million shortfall over the life of the contract But it isn't in 24/7 FSU reruns, Bass Fishing w/ the FSU Team, and the FSU basketball gals and the yearly Savannah State game. That's die hard FSU Football players talking

They need all that other ACC content to make it work and it will still be a regional sports model like Oklahoma (and SNY) instead of a separate cable channel like Longhorn. Longhorn is similar to having the UConn Sports Network as a separate SNY Channel for CT with a hefty Carrier Charge and shoved down the throats of the cable public.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Exactly. Portable with minor tweaks. And the $3.5 million Raycom and B12 Network deals are likely a financial wash for FSU.

Where they are really screwed is with the ABC/ESPN contract. Add the B12 conference game and they are down $8 or $9 million on that alone. $13 mil versus $22 plus the NCAA tourney and Bowl differentials in most years.

I can buy the $128 million shortfall over the life of the contract But it isn't in 24/7 FSU reruns, Bass Fishing w/ the FSU Team, and the FSU basketball gals and the yearly Savannah State game. That's die hard FSU Football players talking

They need all that other ACC content to make it work and it will still be a regional sports model like Oklahoma (and SNY) instead of a separate cable channel like Longhorn. Longhorn is similar to having the UConn Sports Network as a separate SNY Channel for CT with a hefty Carrier Charge and shoved down the throats of the cable public.

It also depends on whether the Big 12 goes with 8 or 9 conference games. I have a strong suspicion that the Playoff Structure will encourage aggressive non-conference scheduling, like it does in hoops, and TV loves inter-conference games. The ACC is locked into 9 games, but if the Big 12 goes with 8, but with a guarantee of quality OOC matchups, you could see the equivalent of an extra home game for FSU every 3 or 4 years by being in the Big 12.

 

[specialisthusky]

Syracuse is the 15th winningest program in Division 1-A college football history

Only USC (11), ND (10), UM (8) and Ohio St (8) have more members in the Pro Football Hall of Fame than Syracuse (7)

Syracuse is the 5th winningest program in Division I college basketball history, trailing only Kentucky, UNC, Kansas and Duke

Syracuse has the 7th highest winning percentage in Division I college basketball history

this reminds me of the list Kentucky Basketball fans shove down the internets' throat...except less impressive and using data even older. Oh and that movie about Ernie Davis sucked

 

[nelsonmuntz]

stop feeding the trolls.

 

[RS9999X]

It also depends on whether the Big 12 goes with 8 or 9 conference games. I have a strong suspicion that the Playoff Structure will encourage aggressive non-conference scheduling, like it does in hoops, and TV loves inter-conference games. The ACC is locked into 9 games, but if the Big 12 goes with 8, but with a guarantee of quality OOC matchups, you could see the equivalent of an extra home game for FSU every 3 or 4 years by being in the Big 12.

If the 12 went with 9 games, FSU would play Florida and Miami every year (as they always do) and do a Home Gate game against the best Florida Barbershop school available as the season opener.

 

[RS9999X]

Syracuse is the 15th winningest program in Division 1-A college football history

Only USC (11), ND (10), UM (8) and Ohio St (8) have more members in the Pro Football Hall of Fame than Syracuse (7)

Syracuse is the 5th winningest program in Division I college basketball history, trailing only Kentucky, UNC, Kansas and Duke

Syracuse has the 7th highest winning percentage in Division I college basketball history

Dude, I lived there in the 70s when Larry Csonka was tearing it up for Miami and they financed the Dome.

What is this, the pathetic 40-year High School reunion?

Let's talk about the grandson of Tebucky Jones and where he's going?

 

[freescooter]

Syracuse is the 15th winningest program in Division 1-A college football history

Only USC (11), ND (10), UM (8) and Ohio St (8) have more members in the Pro Football Hall of Fame than Syracuse (7)

Syracuse is the 5th winningest program in Division I college basketball history, trailing only Kentucky, UNC, Kansas and Duke

Syracuse has the 7th highest winning percentage in Division I college basketball history

Football All Americans (by year)

Name Year Team
Horr, Marquis F. (Bill) 1908 First
Schlacter, Christopher P. 1915 First
White, Harold A. 1915 First
Cobb, Alfred R. 1917 First
Alexander, J.A. (Joe) 1918-19-20 First
Usher, Louis C. 1918 First
Gulick, Bertrand 1920 First
MacRae, Edander G. (Pete) 1923 First
Hanson, Victor 1926 First
Steen, James 1934 First
Fleck, Robert R. 1952-53 First
Brown, James N. 1956 First
Luciano, Ronald M. 1958 First
Davis, Roger W. 1959 First
Mautino, Fred J. 1959 First
Yates, Robert E. 1959 First
Davis, Ernest R. 1960-61 First
Killorin, Patrick M. 1964-65 First
Little, Floyd D. 1964, 1965, 1966 First
Brown, Charles E. 1965 First
Bugenhagen, Gary A. 1966 First
Csonka, Lawrence R. 1966-67 First
Kyasky, Anthony J. 1968 First
Ehrmann, Joseph C. 1970 First
Myers, Thomas P. 1971 First
Preston, Raymond N. 1975 First
Monk, J. Arthur 1979 First
Anderson, Gary 1981 First
Charles, Michael 1982 First
Green, Timothy J. 1984-85 First
Gregory, Theodore 1987 First
McPherson, Donald R. 1987 First
Paul, Markus D. 1988 First
Flannery, John 1990 First
Ismail, Qadry R. 1991 First
Gedney, Christopher J. 1992 First
Harrison, Marvin D. 1995 First
Abrams, Kevin R. 1995-96 First
Darius, Donovin L. 1997 First
Johnson, Kevin L. 1998 First
Freeney, Dwight 2001 First

BOWL GAMES (13-9-1)
SEASON BOWL OPPONENT RESULT SCORE
2010 Pinstripe Kansas State W 36-34
2004 Champs Sports Georgia Tech L 14-51
2001 Insight.com Kansas State W 26-3
1999 Music City Kentucky W 20-13
1998 Orange Florida L 10-31
1997 Fiesta Kansas State L 18-35
1996 Liberty Houston W 30-17
1995 Gator Clemson W 41-0
1992 Fiesta Colorado W 26-22
1991 Hall Of Fame Ohio State W 24-17
1990 Aloha Arizona W 28-0
1989 Peach Georgia W 19-18
1988 Hall Of Fame Louisiana State W 23-10
1987 Sugar Auburn T 16-16
1985 Cherry Maryland L 18-35
1979 Independence McNeese State W 31-7
1966 Gator Tennessee L 12-18
1964 Sugar Louisiana State L 10-13
1961 Liberty Miami FL W 15-14
1959 Cotton Texas W 23-14
1958 Orange Oklahoma L 6-21
1956 Cotton Texas Christian L 27-28
1952 Orange Alabama L 6-61