Tennessee - just wow... | Page 3 | The Boneyard

Tennessee - just wow...

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I would have glady talked about Holly's coaching until you said this.......I'm not a softie and I don't mind a good debate or disgruntled agreements but I didn't come here to be mocked or talked about.....How does the ignore button work?!?!
Same way as the close your account button, give it a try. This is a Uconn board you are welcome to post but the gloves are off when it comes to your beloved and flawed Lady Vols.
 
Yeah with their recruiting..... credit where credit is due with Mercedes.... she still has to develop..... skill wise and either hustle wise or stamina wise..... (gotta get back on defense and not be pedestrian)....I hope she gets there and has a fine college career......

It seems that in Pat's last few years she was recruiting athletes..... and not necessarily savvy players who see the system and how they can be part of the plan.... It is like the shoot 'em out Wild West.....

LVs have some studs up front but if guard play is this undisciplined..... well..... what is the long term hope...... I have changed my mind on UT chances to make FF..... I think it is quite possible ..... but now because of LV prowess, but because of relative weakness of the other teams.....
I actually think one of Geno's real strengths and one of Pat's real weaknesses was in the difference in recruiting philosophy. Geno has almost always been very selective in the players he recruits, making sure they fit his system and team concepts, and that there is not a log jam at any position. Pat always seemed to me to just recruit talent regardless of style or team make-up so she often ended up with too many forwards centers and not enough guards.
 
I actually think one of Geno's real strengths and one of Pat's real weaknesses was in the difference in recruiting philosophy. Geno has almost always been very selective in the players he recruits, making sure they fit his system and team concepts, and that there is not a log jam at any position. Pat always seemed to me to just recruit talent regardless of style or team make-up so she often ended up with too many forwards centers and not enough guards.
Bingo and the problem persists today. Pat said get me bigs who can rebound and put back. Geno said you can never have enough guards, who do you think gets the ball to where it needs to go!
 
Bingo and the problem persists today. Pat said get me bigs who can rebound and put back. Geno said you can never have enough guards, who do you think gets the ball to where it needs to go!
Holly listened to Pat! LOL
 
It has to be discouraging for a player like Graves who played with a great cast in the under 19 worlds, where everyone played as a team, both on defense, and offense. She was one of the best players on the floor today, and almost an afterthought in the offense of the Tennessee team. It seems the guards on Tennessee have the opinion, I'll get mine, and you can pickup the crumbs afterwards. Its hard to become a great frontcourt player if you never see the ball.
 
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It has to be discouraging for a player like Graves who played with a great cast in the under 19 worlds, where everyone played as a team, both on defense, and offense. She was one of the best players on the floor today, and almost an afterthought in the offense of the Tennessee team. It seems the guards on Tennessee have the opinion, I'll get mine, and you can pickup the crumbs afterwards. Its hard to become a great frontcourt player if you never see the ball.

Graves took 9 shots and made 6 hitting 2/3rds
Simmons and Massengale made 9 shots out of 31, less than 1/3

Is something (not) rotten in the state…???
 
It seems the guards on Tennessee have the opinion, I'll get mine, and you can pickup the crumbs afterwards. Its hard to become a great frontcourt player if you never see the ball.
More like 'your job is to collect all the misses from these really ill advised shots I am going to be taking.'. Looks sort of like the pre game shoot around where guards are bombing away and bigs are standing under the basket retrieving the balls and feeding them back out.

So ... having panned the guards for a while ... I wonder why Chiney has not developed her outside game at all - she had a monster game tonight, but besides free throws I don't think she did anything other than layups. (And WHY does a TN center fall for a shot fake by Chiney at the top of the key allowing her then to drive past for the uncontested layup? Let her chuck from distance until she makes two.)
 
Had great fun at the game and glad I was wrong about predicting we'd lose by 10. Chiney was HUGE.
 
Stunning fact from Michelle Smith's game story on ESPN. The Vols have not won a road game against a top 10 opponent in the 5 1/2 years since they won their last NC. That kind of stat does not bode well for FF aspirations.

I was shocked by that as well.
 
I don't think Pat Summitt was the type of person to groom a replacement. She chose assistants who are good followers. It was Pat and only Pat who was in the limelight.

It's a very insular culture at Tennessee and nepotism is the rule. Therefore, it was only natural that Holly would be Pat's successor. I believe that Holly is merely a placeholder. Once Tyler Summitt gains enough coaching experience to avoid severe criticism, he will be named Head Coach.

What UT doesn't realize is that the Lady Vols will only benefit from Pat's aura for a limited amount of time before being considered just another team, the next Louisiana Tech. I believe Tennessee does not see this looming disaster, the erosion of their stature. Staying at the top is critical for Tennessee, because the University does not have a lot of other benefits that would attract recruits. The school is always on the list of ugliest college campuses, weather, academics, etc. It's no Stanford.

My point is, there is little time to waste in getting a top notch coach. Certainly, money is not a problem except the new administration seems not to be interested in spending it on women's basketball.

For these reasons, this is a critical year for the LVs. Something must be done. Time is running out.
They don't realize it because they keep landing top level recruits. Like it or not, it was Holly who landed Russell. I'm unimpressed with their 2014 class, even tho some of their fans hail Nared as a star with as much potential as Russell (albeit a different type of player). And it was Holly who managed to get into Wilson's final 4. IF they miss out on A'ja, a LOT will depend on how they fare in 2015.

Just my opinion - i have no inside scoop, but i've not really seen them highly linked with any of the top players in that class. And I'm referring to the top kids remaining - Durr, Samuelson, Collier and Lambert.

Tennessee is fine for right now. Carter, Graves and Russell are the cream of their last 3 classes (including 2014) and a very good core to build around. But Wilson in 2014 and 2015 are very important for them. They think they have a great shot at Dangerfield, an elite PG from 2016, but a couple of "average" classes could indeed push them well out of the top 10 by the time she were to get to campus...
 
More like 'your job is to collect all the misses from these really ill advised shots I am going to be taking.'. Looks sort of like the pre game shoot around where guards are bombing away and bigs are standing under the basket retrieving the balls and feeding them back out.

So ... having panned the guards for a while ... I wonder why Chiney has not developed her outside game at all - she had a monster game tonight, but besides free throws I don't think she did anything other than layups. (And WHY does a TN center fall for a shot fake by Chiney at the top of the key allowing her then to drive past for the uncontested layup? Let her chuck from distance until she makes two.)

We've been through this, Chiney is the best rebounder and power foward in the country, and we have no other decent posts, so Tara goes with her strengths. I was sitting close at the game, Chiney's baskets were a lot tougher and more than lay-ups.
 
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Is there any reason other than "DNP - Coach's Decision" that neither Bonnie nor Karly Samuelson played at all vs. Tennessee?

Injury? Illness? Has Tara simply lost confidence in them? Or were they sitting in the stands with Mom and Dad and Katie Lou?
 
The (hands down) best front court in the country was out-rebounded 43-40.
And it was down by about 7 rebounds going into TN's late surge.
 
Is there any reason other than "DNP - Coach's Decision" that neither Bonnie nor Karly Samuelson played at all vs. Tennessee?

Injury? Illness? Has Tara simply lost confidence in them? Or were they sitting in the stands with Mom and Dad and Katie Lou?

Interesting question: Karly has been playing decent minutes, both average only 4+ agame with not a heck of a lot rebounds.
 
We've been through this, Chiney is the best rebounder and power foward in the country, and we have no other decent posts, so Tara goes with her strengths. I was sitting close at the game, Chiney's baskets were a lot tougher and more than lay-ups.
Sorry if you took that the wrong way - Chiney was a monster in that game and was tough as nails and I agree a lot of the shots were highly contested, but they were all of the 3' lay-up variety and not jump shots. And I agree that she is filling a needed role in that the other height that Tara has plays better away from the basket for the most part. (I though Ruef had a great game by the way and showed more toughness than I expected around the basket. And the announcers (and refs) totally missed the close-line style box out she suffered on one rebound where she was decked - saying she 'lost her footing'.) What I do think though is that if Chiney took and made a few foul line jumpers in a game like yesterday, forcing the defense to guard her closely there, it would open up the lane for her drives and other cutters. Something her sister and players like Tina and Stef added to their games in college and made them even better.
 
Exactly the kind of thing that would never ever happen under Geno. Simmons would be getting splinters with Geno.

I could be wrong, but I think Simmons has regressed from her freshman year. Remember the talk about who was the best freshmen point guard in the country? Simmons, Sims, or Hartley! Right ow the order of the three is Sims, Hartley, and Simmons dead last.
 
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I could be wrong, but I think Simmons has regressed from her freshman year. Remember the talk about who was the best freshmen point guard in the country? Simmons, Sims, or Hartley! Right ow the order of the three is Sims, Hartley, and Simmons dead last.
I don't think regressed, rather not progressed - the indiscipline that you sort of expect from freshman has never been controlled. To be fair - TN coaching during her 3+ years has been a mess ... Pat's last real year, the three headed monster her sophomore year, and Holly's first year after the official retirement - not conducive to a players development.
 
Remember the talk about who was the best freshmen point guard in the country? Simmons, Sims, or Hartley! Right ow the order of the three is Sims, Hartley, and Simmons dead last.

Sims is a point guard. Hartley is a guard (in the UConn tradition, which is to say playing "1" and "2" alternately and efficiently). Simmons is a gunner.
 
I don't think regressed, rather not progressed - the indiscipline that you sort of expect from freshman has never been controlled. To be fair - TN coaching during her 3+ years has been a mess ... Pat's last real year, the three headed monster her sophomore year, and Holly's first year after the official retirement - not conducive to a players development.

Wow, you're quite the LV apologists. So Tenn is the only program in America that has these kind of issues? I though Holly Warlick's 27+ years of coaching experience was suppose help make this a smooth as can be transition. Too many "But's", "If's" and other excuses being tossed around in Knoxville. Why can't you just face the music...it's not just Meighan Simmons that is regressing, it's the entire LV program that is regressing.
 
Wow, you're quite the LV apologists. So Tenn is the only program in America that has these kind of issues? I though Holly Warlick's 27+ years of coaching experience was suppose help make this a smooth as can be transition. Too many "But's", "If's" and other excuses being tossed around in Knoxville. Why can't you just face the music...it's not just Meighan Simmons that is regressing, it's the entire LV program that is regressing.
Ucmiami is far from an LV apologist. I thought his possible reasons for Simmons lack of development makes some sense. I don't see another program that lost it's coach to a horrible disease in the manner that they did.

I'm not sure why you got on his case. I am far from an apologist, and I enjoy a Tennessee loss as much as anyone, but there is no need to hammer Uconn posters if they don't share your view on Tennessee.
 
Wow, you're quite the LV apologists. So Tenn is the only program in America that has these kind of issues? I though Holly Warlick's 27+ years of coaching experience was suppose help make this a smooth as can be transition. Too many "But's", "If's" and other excuses being tossed around in Knoxville. Why can't you just face the music...it's not just Meighan Simmons that is regressing, it's the entire LV program that is regressing.
Even the most ardent UTenn dislikers should be more measured in these types of assessment statements. Clearly the Vols are not near the level they were at from 1995-1998, but with a high ranking going into the close road loss, the team appears much better off than the 2008-09 team that couldn't ball with Ball State. A few of the more recent transitional Pat years were at minimum trying and at maximum a mess as far as team dynamics, which is understandable whether Vol fans fessed up about it or not. UTenn has not been an FF-type team since 2008, but at this point any regression is from the NC-appearance years and not from anything the team has done in recent times. For the UTenn to really regress under Holly, they would have to fall back to a UTexas level. I don't think they've done that yet, or are all that likely to do so for at least a few years.
 
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Wow, you're quite the LV apologists. So Tenn is the only program in America that has these kind of issues? I though Holly Warlick's 27+ years of coaching experience was suppose help make this a smooth as can be transition. Too many "But's", "If's" and other excuses being tossed around in Knoxville. Why can't you just face the music...it's not just Meighan Simmons that is regressing, it's the entire LV program that is regressing.
Ucmiami is far from an LV apologist. I thought his possible reasons for Simmons lack of development makes some sense. I don't see another program that lost it's coach to a horrible disease in the manner that they did.

I'm not sure why you got on his case. I am far from an apologist, and I enjoy a Tennessee loss as much as anyone, but there is no need to hammer Uconn posters if they don't share your view on Tennessee.
Thank DD - I love seeing TN lose like yesterday and I can hate on them with the best. I just tend to try to be a little gentler with individual players, and can see the big picture. So ...

My feeling is Simmons is playing exactly the way she did as a freshman (maybe her shooting percentage is a little down, haven't checked, but it is still early so the numbers may balance out to her standard.) Analysts looking at her as a freshman saw a dynamic player with rough edges that should be smoothed out as they learn more and get good coaching, so in looking at the field she had numbers like BH and Sims. Problem was she didn't progress and is playing the same game she played as a freshman while Sims and Hartley have become much better than they were as freshman. So I do not see a regression just no progress. And while I suspect Pat or Holly would not have made a big difference had either been completely in charge for the last 3 years, you cannot ignore the fact that TN has gone through a really rough transition during her three years and that didn't help. And I cannot think of another situation comparable at any other school especially given Pat's iconic stature. Obviously Kay previously and this year Sylvia are dealing with serious health issue and that can't be easy for the team, and of course Maggie's situation was tragic but they are just not in the same class of 'complication'.
I would also say TN is not regressing so much as not progressing. I see a number of the old guard coaches and I would put Holly in that class, that made their name in a very different era of basketball - one where talent, discipline, and demanding effort from your team led to winning seasons. With the increased levels of talent, increased money and institutional focus, and national attention, that kind of coaching is not enough. There are younger coaches that are teachers and theorists and strategists who can take lesser talent and make better teams or can take the same talent and make dominant teams. The money for coaches is much greater and it is attracting more highly skilled people to the women's game. Many of that old guard have been let go, some are still in the game, and their are a few of that older generation that actually have the skills to still compete. Tara and Cviv come to mind as coaches that started in AIAW era and have all the skills - Tara, all around, and Cviv as a defensive specialist. Geno came in just a little later and is a bridge and the model for a younger generation of more talented coaches in my view. So again, I think TN's problem is not regression, just that they are coaching the same way in a world that has moved forward.
 
Sorry if you took that the wrong way - Chiney was a monster in that game and was tough as nails and I agree a lot of the shots were highly contested, but they were all of the 3' lay-up variety and not jump shots. And I agree that she is filling a needed role in that the other height that Tara has plays better away from the basket for the most part. (I though Ruef had a great game by the way and showed more toughness than I expected around the basket. And the announcers (and refs) totally missed the close-line style box out she suffered on one rebound where she was decked - saying she 'lost her footing'.) What I do think though is that if Chiney took and made a few foul line jumpers in a game like yesterday, forcing the defense to guard her closely there, it would open up the lane for her drives and other cutters. Something her sister and players like Tina and Stef added to their games in college and made them even better.

Chiney has an outside shot, and did in high school, but just hasn't used at Stanford for need or match-ups or personnel. I'm surprised she doesn't use it more, but honestly the way the personnel has been set up for the Card the last 2 yrs, Chiney as monster in the paint is where we need her the most. That said, she struggles against bigger post players (she admitted that yesterday), her quickness and nose for the ball only helps so much when you are being double teamed, so I agree vs. UConn and teams with bigger posts, she needs to take and hit outside jumpers more.

Agree Nneka developed her outside shot A LOT while at Stanford, but she also had Appel, Chiney and Pedersen as help. Chiney doesn't have that help. And back to Nneka, had she taken the ball to the hoop vs. shooting outside shots vs. Baylor/Griner in Denver, we would have won.
 
we lost. it sucks because this is a game we should have won. however, unlike some of the last few lady vol teams, this team fought back and almost took the road game at stanford. they are a different bunch of players. we were down by 2 with a minute left.

now, we are 10-1 and have a long season of basketball yet to be played. i am still very proud of them for fighting and they will only get better between now and march.
 
I could be wrong, but I think Simmons has regressed from her freshman year. Remember the talk about who was the best freshmen point guard in the country? Simmons, Sims, or Hartley! Right ow the order of the three is Sims, Hartley, and Simmons dead last.
To be fair, Simmons was ranked 24 by HG. That seems a TAD low but she is barely one of the top 20 kids in her class. I also believe Tennessee landed her late and given all they landed before that was a very over-rated Avant, Simmons was a huge get for Pat at that time.
 
we lost. it sucks because this is a game we should have won. however, unlike some of the last few lady vol teams, this team fought back and almost took the road game at stanford. they are a different bunch of players. we were down by 2 with a minute left.

now, we are 10-1 and have a long season of basketball yet to be played. i am still very proud of them for fighting and they will only get better between now and march.

agree, but I've seen way too many times to count, Lvol teams win game like vs. Stanford. I really think it came down to either not planning or executing a game plan to slow down Chiney, same thing for Nneka 2 years ago at Maples when she owned TN.
 
we lost. it sucks because this is a game we should have won. however, unlike some of the last few lady vol teams, this team fought back and almost took the road game at stanford. they are a different bunch of players. we were down by 2 with a minute left.

now, we are 10-1 and have a long season of basketball yet to be played. i am still very proud of them for fighting and they will only get better between now and march.
A game you should have won? Why?

Maybe "could" have won is more accurate.
 
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