Tennessee - just wow...

[msf22b]

Is there any reason other than "DNP - Coach's Decision" that neither Bonnie nor Karly Samuelson played at all vs. Tennessee?

Injury? Illness? Has Tara simply lost confidence in them? Or were they sitting in the stands with Mom and Dad and Katie Lou?

Interesting question: Karly has been playing decent minutes, both average only 4+ agame with not a heck of a lot rebounds.

 

[UcMiami]

We've been through this, Chiney is the best rebounder and power foward in the country, and we have no other decent posts, so Tara goes with her strengths. I was sitting close at the game, Chiney's baskets were a lot tougher and more than lay-ups.

Sorry if you took that the wrong way - Chiney was a monster in that game and was tough as nails and I agree a lot of the shots were highly contested, but they were all of the 3' lay-up variety and not jump shots. And I agree that she is filling a needed role in that the other height that Tara has plays better away from the basket for the most part. (I though Ruef had a great game by the way and showed more toughness than I expected around the basket. And the announcers (and refs) totally missed the close-line style box out she suffered on one rebound where she was decked - saying she 'lost her footing'.) What I do think though is that if Chiney took and made a few foul line jumpers in a game like yesterday, forcing the defense to guard her closely there, it would open up the lane for her drives and other cutters. Something her sister and players like Tina and Stef added to their games in college and made them even better.

 

[connboy77]

Exactly the kind of thing that would never ever happen under Geno. Simmons would be getting splinters with Geno.

I could be wrong, but I think Simmons has regressed from her freshman year. Remember the talk about who was the best freshmen point guard in the country? Simmons, Sims, or Hartley! Right ow the order of the three is Sims, Hartley, and Simmons dead last.

 

[UcMiami]

I could be wrong, but I think Simmons has regressed from her freshman year. Remember the talk about who was the best freshmen point guard in the country? Simmons, Sims, or Hartley! Right ow the order of the three is Sims, Hartley, and Simmons dead last.

I don't think regressed, rather not progressed - the indiscipline that you sort of expect from freshman has never been controlled. To be fair - TN coaching during her 3+ years has been a mess ... Pat's last real year, the three headed monster her sophomore year, and Holly's first year after the official retirement - not conducive to a players development.

 

[Kibitzer]

Remember the talk about who was the best freshmen point guard in the country? Simmons, Sims, or Hartley! Right ow the order of the three is Sims, Hartley, and Simmons dead last.

Sims is a point guard. Hartley is a guard (in the UConn tradition, which is to say playing "1" and "2" alternately and efficiently). Simmons is a gunner.

 

[Stray Cat]

I don't think regressed, rather not progressed - the indiscipline that you sort of expect from freshman has never been controlled. To be fair - TN coaching during her 3+ years has been a mess ... Pat's last real year, the three headed monster her sophomore year, and Holly's first year after the official retirement - not conducive to a players development.

Wow, you're quite the LV apologists. So Tenn is the only program in America that has these kind of issues? I though Holly Warlick's 27+ years of coaching experience was suppose help make this a smooth as can be transition. Too many "But's", "If's" and other excuses being tossed around in Knoxville. Why can't you just face the music...it's not just Meighan Simmons that is regressing, it's the entire LV program that is regressing.

 

[doggydaddy]

Wow, you're quite the LV apologists. So Tenn is the only program in America that has these kind of issues? I though Holly Warlick's 27+ years of coaching experience was suppose help make this a smooth as can be transition. Too many "But's", "If's" and other excuses being tossed around in Knoxville. Why can't you just face the music...it's not just Meighan Simmons that is regressing, it's the entire LV program that is regressing.

Ucmiami is far from an LV apologist. I thought his possible reasons for Simmons lack of development makes some sense. I don't see another program that lost it's coach to a horrible disease in the manner that they did.

I'm not sure why you got on his case. I am far from an apologist, and I enjoy a Tennessee loss as much as anyone, but there is no need to hammer Uconn posters if they don't share your view on Tennessee.

 

[Ozzie Nelson]

Sims is a point guard. Hartley is a guard (in the UConn tradition, which is to say playing "1" and "2" alternately and efficiently). Simmons is a gunner.

guard, gazelle, and gunner

 

[DobbsRover2]

Wow, you're quite the LV apologists. So Tenn is the only program in America that has these kind of issues? I though Holly Warlick's 27+ years of coaching experience was suppose help make this a smooth as can be transition. Too many "But's", "If's" and other excuses being tossed around in Knoxville. Why can't you just face the music...it's not just Meighan Simmons that is regressing, it's the entire LV program that is regressing.

Even the most ardent UTenn dislikers should be more measured in these types of assessment statements. Clearly the Vols are not near the level they were at from 1995-1998, but with a high ranking going into the close road loss, the team appears much better off than the 2008-09 team that couldn't ball with Ball State. A few of the more recent transitional Pat years were at minimum trying and at maximum a mess as far as team dynamics, which is understandable whether Vol fans fessed up about it or not. UTenn has not been an FF-type team since 2008, but at this point any regression is from the NC-appearance years and not from anything the team has done in recent times. For the UTenn to really regress under Holly, they would have to fall back to a UTexas level. I don't think they've done that yet, or are all that likely to do so for at least a few years.

 

[UcMiami]

Wow, you're quite the LV apologists. So Tenn is the only program in America that has these kind of issues? I though Holly Warlick's 27+ years of coaching experience was suppose help make this a smooth as can be transition. Too many "But's", "If's" and other excuses being tossed around in Knoxville. Why can't you just face the music...it's not just Meighan Simmons that is regressing, it's the entire LV program that is regressing.

Ucmiami is far from an LV apologist. I thought his possible reasons for Simmons lack of development makes some sense. I don't see another program that lost it's coach to a horrible disease in the manner that they did.

I'm not sure why you got on his case. I am far from an apologist, and I enjoy a Tennessee loss as much as anyone, but there is no need to hammer Uconn posters if they don't share your view on Tennessee.

Thank DD - I love seeing TN lose like yesterday and I can hate on them with the best. I just tend to try to be a little gentler with individual players, and can see the big picture. So ...

My feeling is Simmons is playing exactly the way she did as a freshman (maybe her shooting percentage is a little down, haven't checked, but it is still early so the numbers may balance out to her standard.) Analysts looking at her as a freshman saw a dynamic player with rough edges that should be smoothed out as they learn more and get good coaching, so in looking at the field she had numbers like BH and Sims. Problem was she didn't progress and is playing the same game she played as a freshman while Sims and Hartley have become much better than they were as freshman. So I do not see a regression just no progress. And while I suspect Pat or Holly would not have made a big difference had either been completely in charge for the last 3 years, you cannot ignore the fact that TN has gone through a really rough transition during her three years and that didn't help. And I cannot think of another situation comparable at any other school especially given Pat's iconic stature. Obviously Kay previously and this year Sylvia are dealing with serious health issue and that can't be easy for the team, and of course Maggie's situation was tragic but they are just not in the same class of 'complication'.
I would also say TN is not regressing so much as not progressing. I see a number of the old guard coaches and I would put Holly in that class, that made their name in a very different era of basketball - one where talent, discipline, and demanding effort from your team led to winning seasons. With the increased levels of talent, increased money and institutional focus, and national attention, that kind of coaching is not enough. There are younger coaches that are teachers and theorists and strategists who can take lesser talent and make better teams or can take the same talent and make dominant teams. The money for coaches is much greater and it is attracting more highly skilled people to the women's game. Many of that old guard have been let go, some are still in the game, and their are a few of that older generation that actually have the skills to still compete. Tara and Cviv come to mind as coaches that started in AIAW era and have all the skills - Tara, all around, and Cviv as a defensive specialist. Geno came in just a little later and is a bridge and the model for a younger generation of more talented coaches in my view. So again, I think TN's problem is not regression, just that they are coaching the same way in a world that has moved forward.

 

[cardfan]

Sorry if you took that the wrong way - Chiney was a monster in that game and was tough as nails and I agree a lot of the shots were highly contested, but they were all of the 3' lay-up variety and not jump shots. And I agree that she is filling a needed role in that the other height that Tara has plays better away from the basket for the most part. (I though Ruef had a great game by the way and showed more toughness than I expected around the basket. And the announcers (and refs) totally missed the close-line style box out she suffered on one rebound where she was decked - saying she 'lost her footing'.) What I do think though is that if Chiney took and made a few foul line jumpers in a game like yesterday, forcing the defense to guard her closely there, it would open up the lane for her drives and other cutters. Something her sister and players like Tina and Stef added to their games in college and made them even better.

Chiney has an outside shot, and did in high school, but just hasn't used at Stanford for need or match-ups or personnel. I'm surprised she doesn't use it more, but honestly the way the personnel has been set up for the Card the last 2 yrs, Chiney as monster in the paint is where we need her the most. That said, she struggles against bigger post players (she admitted that yesterday), her quickness and nose for the ball only helps so much when you are being double teamed, so I agree vs. UConn and teams with bigger posts, she needs to take and hit outside jumpers more.

Agree Nneka developed her outside shot A LOT while at Stanford, but she also had Appel, Chiney and Pedersen as help. Chiney doesn't have that help. And back to Nneka, had she taken the ball to the hoop vs. shooting outside shots vs. Baylor/Griner in Denver, we would have won.

 

[LadyVols9]

we lost. it sucks because this is a game we should have won. however, unlike some of the last few lady vol teams, this team fought back and almost took the road game at stanford. they are a different bunch of players. we were down by 2 with a minute left.

now, we are 10-1 and have a long season of basketball yet to be played. i am still very proud of them for fighting and they will only get better between now and march.

 

[EricLA]

I could be wrong, but I think Simmons has regressed from her freshman year. Remember the talk about who was the best freshmen point guard in the country? Simmons, Sims, or Hartley! Right ow the order of the three is Sims, Hartley, and Simmons dead last.

To be fair, Simmons was ranked 24 by HG. That seems a TAD low but she is barely one of the top 20 kids in her class. I also believe Tennessee landed her late and given all they landed before that was a very over-rated Avant, Simmons was a huge get for Pat at that time.

 

[cardfan]

we lost. it sucks because this is a game we should have won. however, unlike some of the last few lady vol teams, this team fought back and almost took the road game at stanford. they are a different bunch of players. we were down by 2 with a minute left.

now, we are 10-1 and have a long season of basketball yet to be played. i am still very proud of them for fighting and they will only get better between now and march.

agree, but I've seen way too many times to count, Lvol teams win game like vs. Stanford. I really think it came down to either not planning or executing a game plan to slow down Chiney, same thing for Nneka 2 years ago at Maples when she owned TN.

 

[doggydaddy]

we lost. it sucks because this is a game we should have won. however, unlike some of the last few lady vol teams, this team fought back and almost took the road game at stanford. they are a different bunch of players. we were down by 2 with a minute left.

now, we are 10-1 and have a long season of basketball yet to be played. i am still very proud of them for fighting and they will only get better between now and march.

A game you should have won? Why?

Maybe "could" have won is more accurate.

 

[LadyVols9]

agree, but I've seen way too many times to count, Lvol teams win game like vs. Stanford. I really think it came down to either not planning or executing a game plan to slow down Chiney, same thing for Nneka 2 years ago at Maples when she owned TN.

yeah, it was looking like a classic TN/Stanford game. Nneka's game was INSANE a Maples. i think TN breaks the streak next year at TBA. hats off to stanford though.

 

[LadyVols9]

A game you should have won? Why?

Maybe "could" have won is more accurate.

parsing, party of 1...your table is waiting. i'll keep that in mind when i am formulating a helping verb for my next post.

 

[doggydaddy]

parsing, party of 1...your table is waiting. i'll keep that in mind when i am formulating a helping verb for my next post.

Come on. It's a big difference.

Stanford had a good size lead almost the entire game until Tennessee closed it to 2 with a minute left.

More likely that Stanford should have pulled away than Tennessee should have won.

You chose not to answer my question. Why should have Tennessee won?

 

[LadyVols9]

DD- not interested in an argument. that may be your "thing" but it's not mine.

 

[doggydaddy]

DD- not interested in an argument. that may be your "thing" but it's not mine.

My thing? No. Your saying they should have won is ridiculous in a game what was only close in the last minute and Tennessee never tired or led after a 4-4 score.

I don't need to argue. You got nothin...lol.

 

[EricLA]

First of all, I love the comments of "we will only get better come March", as if no one else in WCBB will be improving. Russell had 0 impact in a big game against a good team. And she hasn't even hit the freshman wall yet. I hope Tennessee fans aren't expecting her to lead them to the promised land in March because she's only a freshman, and will be more important in years to come as opposed to this year. I mean that as no criticism of her, just the fact that in a big game she was MIA. It's easy to score 10-15 against teams with no size who are completely overmatched talent-wise. Bigs take time to develop, and Mercedes is no exception.

Second, the gap between Tennessee and UCONN is as wide as it's ever been. As was pointed out, UCONN beat Stanford by 19 WITHOUT arguably their best player (KML) for almost the entire 2nd half, the team had to recover from her horrifying injury, and a mostly MIA game from their other best player (Stewie - 9 points and invisible for long stretches).

Third, not sure why Tennessee "should" have won the game. Stanford was the better team. They led by 7-10 points most of the game, and a couple of amazing shots helped them cut the lead to 2. What happened then? 3 straight fouls by Tennessee players and bam - the game was again out of reach. You could also argue that the only reason Tennessee got close was because Stanford lost their minds a bit. The argument can go either way - more about what Stanford didn't do than what Tennessee did to. Either way it was a solid win by Stanford, and for the record, super frosh Greenfield for Stanford has ONLY been back for 3 games now. I'd say more room for improvement from her than from other players who have been playing for the entire year...

Fourth, Tennessee fans have loved talking all year about how great Massengale is playing and how good their guards are. Ariel had 4 assists and 4 TO's. A combined 11-39 for Massengale, Carter and Simmons. "Oh, but it was just a bad shooting night for them". Yeah, bad because Stanford is a good team and played good defense. Graves was 6-9. Maybe they should have looked to her a little bit more.

 

[Stray Cat]

Russell had 0 impact in a big game against a good team. And she hasn't even hit the freshman wall yet.

Hey eric, in Russell's defense, it's difficult to have an impact in a game when your arse is sitting on the bench for most (if not all) of the 2nd half! If you are an LV fan, you have to be encouraged about how well the Tenn coaching staff is developing her...NOT! I have yet to she her make a basket off a legit offensive move -- all I have seen have been bunnies and put backs.

 

[easttexastrash]

You make that sound like a bad thing????

LOL

 

[easttexastrash]

As I said on the other thread; hard to believe UTenn lost with all that talent…I picked them.

And what's all this respect for Duke…Where does that come from after their virtual no-show this week.

And Kentucky in the mix? You've got to be serious.

I don't understand the Dukie love. They played at home against a UConn team that wasn't at full strength and still lost by 22 points. If they are the number 2 or 3 team in the nation the state of women's basketball is at an all- time low.

Looking forward to seeing Duke at UK.

 

[willtalk]

.----------------------------------------------------------- all they landed before that was a very over-rated Avant, Simmons was a huge get for Pat at that time.

I think that may have impacted Pat giving Simmons the keys and a free raign over the offense as a freshman. She never had the mindset of a point guard and it was a short term fix for Pat to put her in that position. It is a serious mistake to put the ball in the hands of a player with a gunners mentality and then expect her to pass the ball. I personally think Pat was showing signs of slipping before she announced her illness and chose to call it quits. Pat is essentially responsible for both Simmons and Massengale. Holly is just going along with what Pat had already set in motion.