Tennessee goes down to unranked Virginia in OT 69-64

[EricSD]

I think Pat did her a disservice by allowing her to jack up shots without running their offense (not that there is much semblance of one) last year. She was basically their first, second and third option on offense last year, and this year all of a sudden that's not the game plan? She is getting benched for playing the exact same way she did last year, she must be confused about the sudden shift in strategy.

IMO they should have reeled her in last year and let her play within the system, instead of forcing shots every possession. No wonder she hasn't improved.

it is hard to disagree with this. i'm going to attempt an analysis of the thing about that - granted it's an armchair analysis, but there you are.

it's not that Simmons was the 1st, 2nd and 3rd option in scoring last year. Simmons averaged 13.5, Stricklen 12.8, Johnson 12.0 and Bjorkland 10.3 the top 4 scorers were very close in their season average. but Simmons did by far take the most shots last year at 438 while Stricklen was 2nd at 362. over the 37 games, that's Simmons averaging 11.8 shots/game and Stricklen 9.8.

there were some games where Simmons absolutely lit it up. then there were games like the elite 8 game vs. ND where she was 1-11 with 4 TO's. tenn fans will tell you she was the starting PG and played out of position as a converted 2G. Pat had to know what she was getting when she recruited Simmons - a kid who likes to shoot the rock. but trying to play the PG spot, with the ball in her hands, i think there were times where Simmons felt like she needed/wanted to take over. my point is i don't think it's anyone's fault, but certainly not Simmons'.

when she committed, Avant was seen as one of the best players in the nation, and certainly the PG of the future for tenn. when it turned out she did not develop and was not as good as people thought/hoped, they had no choice but to let Simmons or Stricklen run the point.

at some point last year they knew Massengale was coming, and as the PG of the future, Pat didn't "need" to develop Simmons into a better PG. at least i'm guessing that was the strategy. seeing as pat's traditional offense was to chuck it up and go get the O-board, it was really no different with Simmons than it was any other year. tenn. has also traditionally been able to out-talent most teams with tenacious defense and offensive rebounding.

i guess my point is similar to your first sentence - Pat has never run a complex offense, or any kind of motion offense, and as a result, allowing Meighan to jack up shots was nothing different from teams past.

IMHO this year's senior class really crystallizes the problems at tennessee. EITHER the kids she's getting aren't nearly as highly rated as the ratings services say, or Pat does not develop the players. if you look at the WNBA stats, only Parker and Catchings have consistently been all-stars in the W. and of the 10 players they had in the W, only 2 really averaged much over 10 PPG. Lawson was 10.4. but look at the rest of their list...

Anosike, Bobbitt, Ely, Hornbuckle, Robinson, Snow, and Spencer. notwithstanding Bobbitt who was a JUCO, i think every one of those kids was top 10. some performed at expectations in college, some below. but aside from the random good year, none have been stars in the WNBA. how does that happen?

i don't really have an answer for that. when you compare that to kids like Jess Moore, Kalana Greene and Ketia Swanier, who were lower ranked than most of those tennessee recruits, but who perform at least as good as all these top 10 tennessee kids now in the W, i think the question is a fair one. is it lack of development at tennessee, or over-rating by the services for these kids while still in HS, or is a combo of the two?

 

[Kevin G]

C'mon! Are we really surprised that Tenn had another disappointing game and loses?!? I certainly am not.

NOW, with all this talk we better take care of business tomorrow night. I will be there!!

 

[semper]

I could NOT believe my eyes when I saw the headline. Incredible. I'll be looking for some analysis. Depending on how others fare, they should go down to 10.

 

[speedoo]

I think Pat did her a disservice by allowing her to jack up shots without running their offense (not that there is much semblance of one) last year. She was basically their first, second and third option on offense last year, and this year all of a sudden that's not the game plan? She is getting benched for playing the exact same way she did last year, she must be confused about the sudden shift in strategy.

IMO they should have reeled her in last year and let her play within the system, instead of forcing shots every possession. No wonder she hasn't improved.

Simmons playing however she wants is no longer the game plan, probably because the assistant coaches have a lot more authority now, and I am pretty sure they are much less inclined to live with Simmons' proclivity to do nothing but jack up shots and turn the ball over.

 

[magical2]

what a stunner. Tennessee will drop for sure in the polls. probably stay in the top 10 still but... bad bad loss

Wow,I am trying to figure out how this falls into the questions I have had about them going into the season! #1 was injuries and was Baugh really back to pre injury status,#2 was the # of quality guards if they had injury or poor games,#3 they are playing with a short bench/not alot of players. Baugh did not play?,they got 5 points from Ariel and Simmons,I had expected them to be getting much more from Burdick. They did get performances from IMHO SR AAs Strickland,Johnson,
and an Excellent JR in Spani,but this is a big upset. They should drop out of the top 10,but doubtful they will. VERY INTERESTING

 

[uconn_nyc]

what a stunner. Tennessee will drop for sure in the polls. probably stay in the top 10 still but... bad bad loss

Disciplined teams with experienced guards have performed well against UT's superior athleticism and talent. For instance, Xavier in the sweet 16 I believe, a few years back.

 

[Tonyc]

TN will temporarily stay in the top 10. They have Stanford and Baylor and they'll be lucky to stay in the top 15.

 

[Ruffian75]

There is one reason and one reason only why TN has underachieved the last three years ...Their coaching staff.

 

[ThisJustIn]

There is one reason and one reason only why TN has underachieved the last three years ...Their coaching staff.

cause three years ago it was totally different.

 

[sarals24]

I think also Tennessee has consistently recruited players who were bigger and stronger. They could win games by sheer size and talent. The game has caught up with them, and it's no longer possible to win by that alone.

Obviously, the parity still isn't there yet and they will still win 25 plus game a year, maybe more. But with younger coaches who have studied the game and more and more true players rather than just athletes coming out of college, well...I'd say Tennessee needs to inject some youth and new coaching strategies into their program.

Geno and co have stayed on top because he actually develops his players, plus he recruits players that fit into his system, rather than the biggest, strongest rebounders out there.

 

[ed4ourgirls]

It's a little early to be gloating...

But I love it!!!

At least for tonight...

Yes, I agree. This may be an aberration. I've been impressed with how
Spani has come into her own this season. She gives the LVs some real
firepower.

I'll be surprised if Tennessee falls below 6th in the next polls, and I
would expect those polls to contain an undefeated UVa team.

 

[magical2]

Disciplined teams with experienced guards have performed well against UT's superior athleticism and talent. For instance, Xavier in the sweet 16 I believe, a few years back.

You hit an element right on the head

 

[Zorro]

Poet Lariat sez;

The monitors all get annoyed
When we exhibit schadenfreude,
But still, I cannot help but grin
To see the LV foiled again!

 

[Phil]

There is one reason and one reason only why TN has underachieved the last three years ...Their coaching staff.

I don't buy it.

 

[Icebear]

I buy it, Phil, to the point that TN for a long time now has not been able to find and/or implement an offensive structure that shows any sign of organization. We all know that Pat has contacted NBA types and Harry P. and probably others but nothing in their structure of play shows anything resembling a consistency of organization and play. This indicates an awareness of the problem, it not success in installing it. When TN won with Parker they basically got the ball to Parker and ocassionally found a kick out shooter, but nothing resembling the Triangle offense or a persistent motion offense.

 

[speedoo]

I don't buy it.

So it's all on the players then? The coaches bear no responsibility for choosing them, losing them (Avant, Brewer, etc.) developing them, preparing them for games, game tactics, etc.?

 

[intlzncster]

The last few years their biggest problem has been no point guard. Never thought Pat was a good offensive coach, but without a PG, even a brilliant offense stagnates.

 

[EricSD]

I buy it, Phil, to the point that TN for a long time now has not been able to find and/or implement an offensive structure that shows any sign of organization. We all know that Pat has contacted NBA types and Harry P. and probably others but nothing in their structure of play shows anything resembling a consistency of organization and play. This indicates an awareness of the problem, it not success in installing it. When TN won with Parker they basically got the ball to Parker and ocassionally found a kick out shooter, but nothing resembling the Triangle offense or a persistent motion offense.

Tenn has a plethora of HS AA's on their team. going back a bit, McMahon was top 15, Bjorkland #2, Baugh #5. Johnson, Gray, Stricklen, and Manning all top 15. Spani #13. Simmons top 5 in a few ratings services, and same with Burdick and Massengale. really the only team who has recruited better than Tenn is UCONN.

my point is Tenn certainly has had the "horses". the 2 biggest glaring problems? No PG recruited (in fact, mostly all wings and post players), and coaching. some folks on the Tenn board threw the kids under the bus talking about lack of cohesion and fire in their guts (mental toughness). but you are right - the fact remains that Pat and her staff are the ones who teach offense and defense, and who decided to bench Simmons in favor of Bass.

Let me rephrase that - Pat is the one who generally throws the kids under the bus. their fans are now starting to blame the coaches with "deer in headlights" and "lack of offense" comments.

 

[JS]

Poet Lariat sez;

The monitors all get annoyed
When we exhibit schadenfreude,
But still, I cannot help but grin
To see the LV foiled again!

You’d best avoid old shoddy Freud,
that shameful little shrink.
Though private thoughts may be akin
when LVs take it on the chin,
mind what we say, not what we think.

 

[Ruffian75]

I don't buy it.

Phil, let me expand on the coaching staff. I think it is vital that a team have at least one or two younger assistants on their coaching staff. At TN, Nikki was an assistant that could relate to 18 to 22 year old girls on the level of a big sister. I don't think it is any coincidence that her departure after the Parker years can't be linked to the past three years of underachievement on the NCAA Tourney stage. Everyone on the present staff is near 50 or over 50, including the trainer.

When Tanya and Jamelle left, Geno replaced them with two younger assistants, Shea and Marisa. Pat replaced Al Brown with another old guy, Dean Lockwood, and then brought back a relic in Mickie DeMoss. There is also no black female presence on the TN staff.

All of the Tennessee coaches are obviously good, but there is no youth to bridge the gap between the players and staff. I am sure that Shea and Marisa probably share Geno jokes with the current players. I don't see that happening with Dean, Holly and Mickie and the current Vol roster.

 

[Phil]

Phil, let me expand on the coaching staff. I think it is vital that a team have at least one or two younger assistants on their coaching staff. At TN, Nikki was an assistant that could relate to 18 to 22 year old girls on the level of a big sister. I don't think it is any coincidence that her departure after the Parker years can't be linked to the past three years of underachievement on the NCAA Tourney stage. Everyone on the present staff is near 50 or over 50, including the trainer.

When Tanya and Jamelle left, Geno replaced them with two younger assistants, Shea and Marisa. Pat replaced Al Brown with another old guy, Dean Lockwood, and then brought back a relic in Mickie DeMoss. There is also no black female presence on the TN staff.

All of the Tennessee coaches are obviously good, but there is no youth to bridge the gap between the players and staff. I am sure that Shea and Marisa probably share Geno jokes with the current players. I don't see that happening with Dean, Holly and Mickie and the current Vol roster.

You bring up an interesting point about the coaching demographics. In the same way I've argued that scheduling is tougher than some realize, I think the same thought could be applied to selecting assistants.

You need a variety of strengths, in terms of x's and o's, typically with a guard coach and a post coach. You want lots of experience, for obvious reasons, and you want youth, so there is an age connection. You need someone who can lay down the law and be tough when needed, and you need a shoulder to cry on. You may need gender and ethnic diversity. What about religious diversity? You need the ability to connect with teenagers when it comes to recruiting and you need the ability to connect with parents. The list can go on and on, but you have to do all of this with four people, who also buy into a shared philosophy. Not an easy task.

My abrupt answer wasn't espousing the opposite extreme, I agree that there are questions to be posed to the coaching staff, and I agree you raise an interesting point about the lack of age diversity. I was simply responding to your over-reaching statement that "There is one reason and one reason only". This is almost never the case, and I don't think it is the case here.

 

[Phil]

So it's all on the players then? The coaches bear no responsibility for choosing them, losing them (Avant, Brewer, etc.) developing them, preparing them for games, game tactics, etc.?

I was challenging the notion that the answer was 100% on coaches. Rejecting 100% is not the same as espousing zero.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

This is what Jay Bilas wrote about Mike Krzyzewski when Coach K notched win #903:

I don't know that Coach K is the best X's and O's coach in the game. He is good at it, but that is not why his teams win. Coach K's greatest strength is getting five to play as one and instilling a collective toughness and will into his team. He gets his players to play harder than they believed they could ever play and gets them to make sacrifices they didn't think they could ever make. He is always thinking about how to be better and how to make his players better. He has tremendous feel for the game and for players. When things are really crazy and intense late in a close game, he is incredibly calm. When the team is too calm and lacks the requisite intensity, he goes crazy.

Perhaps his greatest strength is making the complicated seem simple. While prepared down to the last detail, he does not overburden his players with too many details. He wants his players reacting instead of thinking. He is great with concepts and communicating those concepts in a way that players can internalize and embrace.

Is Pat the best Xs and Os coach currently in the game? Probably not. Her more recent teams won because of four things:
1) Primary superstar (e.g., Holdsclaw, Parker)
2) Secondary superstars (Catchings and Randall, Anosike and Hornbuckle)
3) Key roleplayers and shooters (Conklin and Jolly, Spencer and Bobbitt)
4) A tenaciousness and relentlessness that was infused from Pat Summitt to her players (evident in things like rebounding, loose balls, etc.).

This last point brings me to what Jay Bilas said about Coach K. Teaching chemistry and getting five to play as one are just as much part of coaching as Xs and Os. A tactician can design great plays; but a great coach is able to have five think (and play) as one.

 

[Icebear]

This is what Jay Bilas wrote about Mike Krzyzewski when Coach K notched win #903:

Is Pat the best Xs and Os coach currently in the game? Probably not. Her more recent teams won because of four things:
1) Primary superstar (e.g., Holdsclaw, Parker)
2) Secondary superstars (Catchings and Randall, Anosike and Hornbuckle)
3) Key roleplayers and shooters (Conklin and Jolly, Spencer and Bobbitt)
4) A tenaciousness and relentlessness that was infused from Pat Summitt to her players (evident in things like rebounding, loose balls, etc.).

This last point brings me to what Jay Bilas said about Coach K. Teaching chemistry and getting five to play as one are just as much part of coaching as Xs and Os. A tactician can design great plays; but a great coach is able to have five think (and play) as one.

Well said, Cam.

 

[Ruffian75]

I was challenging the notion that the answer was 100% on coaches. Rejecting 100% is not the same as espousing zero.

Of course it is not 100%. Let's quote Yogi...."Baseball is half hitting and 90% pitching." In the case of WCB it is half recruiting and 90% teaching them to play as a team. The coaches are responsible for only 90%

 

[Zorro]

This is what Jay Bilas wrote about Mike Krzyzewski when Coach K notched win #903:

Is Pat the best Xs and Os coach currently in the game? Probably not. Her more recent teams won because of four things:
1) Primary superstar (e.g., Holdsclaw, Parker)
2) Secondary superstars (Catchings and Randall, Anosike and Hornbuckle)
3) Key roleplayers and shooters (Conklin and Jolly, Spencer and Bobbitt)
4) A tenaciousness and relentlessness that was infused from Pat Summitt to her players (evident in things like rebounding, loose balls, etc.).

This last point brings me to what Jay Bilas said about Coach K. Teaching chemistry and getting five to play as one are just as much part of coaching as Xs and Os. A tactician can design great plays; but a great coach is able to have five think (and play) as one.

With you all the way here, Cam, except for the "more recent" part. When in the past was it otherwise?

 

[Kibitzer]

Two enriching and enlightening threads today. One about leadership (starting with Caroline) and this one that gravitated to successful coaching technique.

As for the first, I think the comparisons (e.g., Caroline vs. Maya) were unfortunate because each of the many fine players mentioned led in their own way and were/are followed by other players in their own way. I think the operable word is "different," not "better" (or "not as good as. . .") when making comparisons.

Two coaches who stood out were surely Vince Lombardi and Red Auerbach and they were totally different personalities who had in common the capacity for winning championships.

Jerry Kramer summed up one feature of Lombardi's coaching: "Coach Lombardi treated all his players the same -- like dogs!" (We know that wasn't completely true, but it still says something about the coach-player relationship that existed).

As for Auerbach, he was renowned for never EVER verbally abusing either Bob Cousy or Bill Russell. They were beyond his reproach, his "fair-haired boys." Everyone knew it and not only accepted it but they (especially the perennial scapegoats like Heinsohn and Luscotoff) even chuckled about it.

This "effective leadership" topic is an elusive quality indeed. What works for someone (fill in a name) who is highly successful probably won't work for (fill in another name).

To me, it's a fascinating topic.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

With you all the way here, Cam, except for the "more recent" part. When in the past was it otherwise?

I was going based on the five recent national title teams. To be honest, I was too lazy to go back and look up Bridgette Gordon's statistics and figure out who were the secondary supersatsr and complementary players on the 1987, 1989, and 1991 teams. The 1996, 1997, 1998, 2007, and 2008 teams I could do from memory.