Tennessee 2025, part 2 | Page 12 | The Boneyard

Tennessee 2025, part 2

nwhoopfan said:
Copper has been in the WNBA for a number of years and has no more eligibility, although I'm sure the Vols could really use her. 😆
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I Got You GIF by VOXTUR

Good one. 😉
 
UConnCat said:
It was Cooper. I had the same reaction as you: playground pass. The camera went to Caldwell who had a “what was that?” look on her face.

Curious about status of Copper.
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Thank you for confirming - I’ve been wondering!
 
Vowelguy said:
Funny how no one complains about USC being in the tournament even though their resume is almost identical.
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You have a point. It is similar. Some good wins, one really bad loss, and just a bunch of losses overall. Season got off track, but never quite as dramatically as Tennessee's did. They did end the season on a 4 game skid.
 
I think what you see at TN is an issue with the portal - oh look at all the goodies available, I'll take em all! And then you try to create a unified team with a bunch of guys that all want to be a star, and displace your returning players and your freshman. You play cupcakes and it all looks good and everyone has some fun, but when it gets tough it just snowballs. They look like a bunch of individuals who don't like each other or their coaches.

I think the committee will definitely look at the last 12 game stretch - tough stretch no doubt but also not a good showing in most of the games they played and lost, and they will be an 8/9 seed even with their impressive schedule.

And as for coach - a number of teams have done the press/trap/sub - Mitchell at KY had his year or two of 40 mins of hell defense, Coach Q had a couple of season with his stop and pop 3 ptr running and subbing that actually got him to a FF, and others have as well. It usually is because you have a large homogeneous team without the talent or stars to win any other way than to create chaos. TN has enough talent that they could play straight up, but their coach likes the chaos, but I don't think her team likes it or is buying in at this point. And the actual half court defense is no good when the press fails.

Geno did this with his early teams and would use it in an arsenal of defensive options even when he had great talent if he had deep teams, and he has dusted it off this year in a big way because he finally has a full healthy team again. But it isn't the only way his team can play - they also can do straight up half court man, and occasionally switch to zone, as well as their full court trapping defense. If all you do is one thing, then teams can adjust, and you can't if plan A isn't working.
 
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nwhoopfan said:
You have a point. It is similar. Some good wins, one really bad loss, and just a bunch of losses overall. Season got off track, but never quite as dramatically as Tennessee's did. They did end the season on a 4 game skid.
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Is anyone really think TN will be left out? I think both USC and TN are probably in, but both should be down around 8-10 seeds. It is something we will have to get used to with super conferences - 9+ teams getting in from SEC/BigTen.

I think they will also need to revisit the none of the top 4 teams in a conference can be in the same bracket - these teams generally play each other once in the reg season and might meet in a conference tournament so it isn't like the old days of the conference teams playing twice, and then probably a third time before the NCAA. And with posibly 6+ conference teams in the first 16 seeds, then put the ones that haven met twice together - LSU and TX and TX and SC shouldn't meet, but Vandy played all three of those teams only once so why not?.
 
ucmiami2 said:
Is anyone really think TN will be left out? I think both USC and TN are probably in, but both should be down around 8-10 seeds. It is something we will have to get used to with super conferences - 9+ teams getting in from SEC/BigTen.

I think they will also need to revisit the none of the top 4 teams in a conference can be in the same bracket - these teams generally play each other once in the reg season and might meet in a conference tournament so it isn't like the old days of the conference teams playing twice, and then probably a third time before the NCAA. And with posibly 6+ conference teams in the first 16 seeds, then put the ones that haven met twice together - LSU and TX and TX and SC shouldn't meet, but Vandy played all three of those teams only once so why not?.
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Yeah at some point if there are enough teams from one conference in the Tourney, there's no way to avoid them potentially meeting before a Regional Final.
 
ucmiami2 said:
Geno did this with his early teams and would use it in an arsenal of defensive options even when he had great talent if he had deep teams, and he has dusted it off this year in a big way because he finally has a full healthy team again. But it isn't the only way his team can play - they also can do straight up half court man, and occasionally switch to zone, as well as their full court trapping defense. If all you do is one thing, then teams can adjust, and you can't if plan A isn't working.
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I remember well when UConn ran a press/trap defense. CPTV used to have segment where coach would explain elements of the game so that new fans could understand rules and strategy and I clearly remember him waiving his arms and explaining the press. The difference was that he wasn’t subbing out his players every 2 minutes. Those teams were 7 players deep and starters played until the game was well put away in the fourth quarter.

I think Tennessee’s fundamental problem is team chemistry followed by bad offense and worse defense. Whether that’s the fault of coaching or players could be discussed infinitely, but it clearly isn’t working.
 
Iowa lost today 96-45. Wonder if fans will be calling for coach's head. 😁
 
I also find it amusing the number of people who talk about how bad Tenn is, and yet they did something no other team has done this year: go on a 35-15 run against UConn.

They've got issues. But folks make it sound like they're no better than Central.
 
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Vowelguy said:
I also find it amusing the number of people who talk about how bad Tenn is, and yet they did something no other team has done this year: go on a 35-15 run against UConn.

They've got issues. But folks make it sound like they're no better than Central.
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And Tennessee still lost by 30, being out-scored by 30 in the second half. But I have to admit you have a really good statistical cherry picker. Perhaps you should consider loaning it to the selection commitee when they justify why Tennessee is in the field of 68.
 
I’m with @Vowelguy on this one — Tennessee did play really well against UConn for a stretch and that deserves our respect. From mid-1st quarter through mid-3rd quarter they played really tough and were leading the #1 ranked team in the land by as many as 4 points. Even Michigan didn’t manage that.

It’s also true that starting around the 6 minute mark in the 3rd quarter they ran out of gas. Not physical fatigue but mental fatigue. That’s what Geno’s defense does to opponents. Tennessee lost its focus and then UConn practically ran them off the court. The final score could have been a lot worse had Geno left Sarah and Azzi in longer. But a 30 point beatdown doesn’t negate the fact that Tennessee played really tough for most of that game. It was also probably a really good experience for our team, to be pushed hard and then to assert themselves and be able to dominate when it mattered.
 
Vowelguy said:
You mean by using basic logic and analysis?
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I apologize to you and Bone Dog. I didn’t realize that playing a competitive half against UConn was the metric that carried the most weight by the selection committee. For years I kept hearing (from the selection committee’s spokes-person) that their decisions were based upon a team’s complete body of work, and not based on a team’s performance during a segment of one game that they ultimately lost by 30 points (due to mental fatigue?).
 
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Bone Dog said:
I’m with @Vowelguy on this one — Tennessee did play really well against UConn for a stretch and that deserves our respect. From mid-1st quarter through mid-3rd quarter they played really tough and were leading the #1 ranked team in the land by as many as 4 points. Even Michigan didn’t manage that.

It’s also true that starting around the 6 minute mark in the 3rd quarter they ran out of gas. Not physical fatigue but mental fatigue. That’s what Geno’s defense does to opponents. Tennessee lost its focus and then UConn practically ran them off the court. The final score could have been a lot worse had Geno left Sarah and Azzi in longer. But a 30 point beatdown doesn’t negate the fact that Tennessee played really tough for most of that game. It was also probably a really good experience for our team, to be pushed hard and then to assert themselves and be able to dominate when it mattered.
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They also gave Texas a run for their money. Probably should have beaten them.

My theory.... the fact they don't have a consistent starting lineup doesn't help with the cohesiveness. Changing the starters based off of how they played the game before it crazy work. The coaches, not sure which, sets the substitution pattern before the game. Not sure if there are any adjustments to that during the game or if they stick to that game plan. Coach also recruited the same exact type of player. Not one is a 3 point shooter, an assist maker, or a play maker. Last year, she had team leaders that were part of the previous coaches culture. There doesn't really seem to be a culture or any team leaders.
 
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nwhoopfan said:
Yeah at some point if there are enough teams from one conference in the Tourney, there's no way to avoid them potentially meeting before a Regional Final.
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I commented on this phenomenon before but my post ended with the suggestion that the selection committee rules need to be rewritten. I'm not going to withdraw that suggestion but I do want to make it clear that when a problem is identified the best option is to fix the problem, not massage the aftermath. The right answer is to revisit the whole conference makeup.

It's a necessary reality that there will be travel in postseason national events, but now we reached the point that conference tournaments require substantial travel on top of regular-season travel.

Is anyone measured how much more travel there is these days compared to 20 years ago I'm betting it's up substantially, and I don't think that's a good thing.
 
People are arguing logic vs. metrics. The metrics actually say Tennessee is a 6 seed while logic (record especially over their last 10-12 games) says they should be MUCH lower. The easy answer? The metrics are wrong. To have a 16-13 Tennessee team as the NET 22 is a joke. By that metric alone, Tennessee should be a 6-seed. And oddly enough, 17-13 USC is 23 according to the NET.

And saying that Tennessee had 25 good minutes against UConn or only lost to Texas by 4 is NOT enough to give them a break for the seedings. If a pair of 16-13 team and 17-13 are basically 6-seeds per the NET metrics, then the data they use is flawed.

It's interesting that a few are even talking about either of those teams (Tennessee or USC) missing the tourney. That's not happening, but it does seem the NET and other metrics are flawed and should be fixed.
 
EricSD said:
People are arguing logic vs. metrics. The metrics actually say Tennessee is a 6 seed while logic (record especially over their last 10-12 games) says they should be MUCH lower. The easy answer? The metrics are wrong. To have a 16-13 Tennessee team as the NET 22 is a joke. By that metric alone, Tennessee should be a 6-seed. And oddly enough, 17-13 USC is 23 according to the NET.

And saying that Tennessee had 25 good minutes against UConn or only lost to Texas by 4 is NOT enough to give them a break for the seedings. If a pair of 16-13 team and 17-13 are basically 6-seeds per the NET metrics, then the data they use is flawed.

It's interesting that a few are even talking about either of those teams (Tennessee or USC) missing the tourney. That's not happening, but it does seem the NET and other metrics are flawed and should be fixed.
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That's what I keep saying! We see the results the formula is giving us, it's pretty easy to determine that the formula is significantly flawed. It's almost as if losses are meaningless.

How many games would Tennessee have to lose to drop out of the NET Top 25? Or Top 50? They could be 10 games under .500 and the NET would still like them.

I still really believe that RPI was better than NET. It wasn't this nonsensical. And the numbers actually changed after losses.
 
HuskyNan said:
It’s almost like some people still feel the rivalry or something
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Vowelguy said:
I hate them more than most (I admire what the Romans did to Carthage and view it as a model for Knoxville), but let's not confuse rivalry with objective analysis.
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Both of you have valid arguments. I would compare it to Auburn / Alabama. The football rivalry hasn't been very competitive over the last few years, however both fan bases, are just as passionate today as they were years and years ago.

As a since passed friend from AL once said, when I asked to date my now wife, her daddy had two questions:
1 - what church do you go to?​
2 - Auburn or Alabama?​
ps - he answered both of them correctly.
 
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I only replied to what I believed to be the question, namely whether Tennessee deserves to be in the tournament somewhere. I think that's obvious, not merely on metrics but also because they're kinda fun to watch, and the NCAA has to consider that. Is the NET flawed? Sure, but it's not the only consideration the committee uses. Is RPI better? Maybe, but that's not germane to the question.

Does Tennessee deserve some special seeding? No, and neither does USC. But it would seem strange to exclude either of them. For one thing, both of them could probably win their first round and maybe second round games.
 
Tennessee has completely fallen apart, which makes the very mild quality of their wins less impactful to the mind than the overall train wreck.

But it's not like there are amazing alternatives on the bubble. Certainly the raw talent at UT is much better than anyone you could begin a case to replace them with.
 
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