Tenn v UConn

[Kibitzer]

I spend a lot of time in Tenn. EVERYONE I've met there are decent, mostly honest, caring, forgiving and proud people. Most do not realize that the situation with Maya was blown out of proportion by a Dementia condition of Pat Summit, whose staff that always accepted Pats position on all subjects went along. Knowing this I believe most, if they knew, would offer some level of sorrow for what happened. I am sure no public apology will ever come from Tenn the University or the Sports Dept--they are proud people who never knew defeat.

Not blown out of proportion at all. A total mean-spirited fabrication.

 

[msf22b]

I rather agree, because I don't see what exactly would be the subject of the apology.

So asside from some crazies on the Vols board there is nothing to really appologize for?

Play Ball!

 

[Huskies Rule]

I forgave Germans for the holocaust.
I can much more easily forgive a pre-demented Pat for any over-indulgence and loco accusations.

Only the Boneyard and other UConn groups (and Geno) are keeping this feud alive, no one else gives a crap.
95% of the rest of WBB fans want to see the teams play (especially ESPN in whose interest it is to advance the game, which should be ours as well; even if we beat the crap out of them).

Play ball!

While it's very generous of you to forgive, several members of my family were murdered in Auschwitz. And I WILL NEVER FORGIVE THEM (Not today's Germans but Hitler's willing executioners of the 30's and 40's) for what they did to my family and six million other Jews. To reference the Holocaust, in any manner, in a discussion about a superficial basketball rivalry goes well beyond unseemly.

 

[meyers7]

I have to admit to being one of them

I know.

 

[j66kicker]

UCONN isn't bigger than the sport.
Geno isn't bigger than WCBB.
Most fans probably want it, ESPN says so. It would be good for the game. We need some tougher competition.
This is a no-brainer.
Play the game Geno. You know we'll crush them.
.

When hell freezes over. Don't forget what language the word vendetta comes from. Geno will have to be dead and gone before this happens. And, if he is succeeded by a coach named Rizzotti or Taurasi, then they will have to be dead and gone too.

 

[ndmb]

And by extension, it's OK to smear someone without any consequences. You always hear from Vol fans about how classy PHS is. I never bought for a second, she was always a monster. But here is a chance for UT to prove me wrong and predictably they aren't interested.

A monster?

 

[Bgillon]

I forgave Germans for the holocaust.
I can much more easily forgive a pre-demented Pat for any over-indulgence and loco accusations.

Only the Boneyard and other UConn groups (and Geno) are keeping this feud alive, no one else gives a crap.
95% of the rest of WBB fans want to see the teams play (especially ESPN in whose interest it is to advance the game, which should be ours as well; even if we beat the crap out of them).

Play ball!

Go to Volnation and see if you think only UCONN groups have some venom. They regularly insult Geno in the most vile manner.

 

[tennparker3]

3 things...

Pat made the right choice at that time.

Let's all get over it. Holly isn't going to give an apology when there is no reason to. She clearly believes that the reason the series was cancelled was viable.

Geno and UConn are fine without us and Tennessee and Holly are fine without UConn.

 

[calpedaler]

3 things...

Pat made the right choice at that time.

Let's all get over it. Holly isn't going to give an apology when there is no reason to. She clearly believes that the reason the series was cancelled was viable.

Geno and UConn are fine without us and Tennessee and Holly are fine without UConn.

How do you know Pat made the right choice? She never showed enough integrity to state why the series was cancelled. Lots of innuendo...no explanation.

 

[Kibitzer]

Pat made the right choice at that time. Holly clearly believes that the reason the series was cancelled was viable.

9511[/ATTACH]

Every bit as viable as the tooth fairy.

 

[UConnCat]

I'll wrap up my thoughts on this by saying I'm fine with Tennessee being fine with not making a Final Four since 2008. My fine math skills tell me that's 7 fine years.

Maybe Tenn's streak with finally come to an end in 2016 and the two teams will meet in the Final Four. That'll be fine.

 

[ctfjr]

3 things...

Pat made the right choice at that time.

Let's all get over it. Holly isn't going to give an apology when there is no reason to. She clearly believes that the reason the series was cancelled was viable.

Geno and UConn are fine without us and Tennessee and Holly are fine without UConn.

What condescending load of crap! If the almighty great one made such a pious choice why wasn't she willing to share the knowledge with the rest of the world?

 

[HuskyNan]

5. The really disgusting, apology-warranting stuff about Maya and her mom has come, persistently for years, out of a group of dedicated ignoramuses on the TN message boards, especially the Summitt. But that's not an official source. It's barely even a human source. The university doesn't control those boards, so how can it apologize for what's said there?

Where do you think the 37 pages of Boneyard posts that made up the bulk ofl the complaint came from? You don't think Joan Cronan stopped stirring her cauldron long enough to plaster her nose against the PC screen hoping, hoping, hoping some hapless Boneyarder would indulge in a bit of hyperbole and bragadoccio so that she could add it to the complaint? No, it was the Captain of the Tin Foil Hat Brigade. And I will never, ever forgive them for the innuendo and lies about Maya and her Mom or for making poor Kibitzer a victim of their venom for handing a cardboard sign to Ernie DelleDonne from his wheelchair.

Yes, an apology is due.

I have only heard from UConn twice in 15 years and one of those times was to ask me up to the Compliance Office so they could explain the word Booster to me. I cant imagine in a million years the folks at UConn taking seriously a bunch of people who live in their basement, living vicariously through the women's basketball team, I just can't.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

You know this thread is like Groundhog Day. Maybe it can be pegged up top to spare us its recreation every 3-4 weeks.

 

[Kibitzer]

You know this thread is like Groundhog Day. Maybe it can be pegged up top to spare us its recreation every 3-4 weeks.

ahem.

re-creation.

 

[terif831]

3 things...

Pat made the right choice at that time.

Let's all get over it. Holly isn't going to give an apology when there is no reason to. She clearly believes that the reason the series was cancelled was viable.

Geno and UConn are fine without us and Tennessee and Holly are fine without UConn.

Really? Well, if the reason, which remains unnamed and apparently will forever be unnamable due to its extremely horrendous nature, was viable then, it must still be viable now. So why all of a sudden are the Vols ready to give up their high moral standards and play UCONN? The "right choice at that time" is no longer the right choice? What changed, besides the passage of time? They have just decided to forgive Geno and UCONN for the great wrongness they have done to Tennessee and to the integrity of the sport, ad nauseum, ad nauseum, ad nauseum? Please!

 

[JS]

Who is this vitriolic new poster who takes such sharp issue with my wisdom?

Oh . . . it's my esteemed colleague. I'll be civil.

Where do you think the 37 pages of Boneyard posts that made up the bulk ofl the complaint came from? You don't think Joan Cronan stopped stirring her cauldron long enough to plaster her nose against the PC screen hoping, hoping, hoping some hapless Boneyarder would indulge in a bit of hyperbole and bragadoccio so that she could add it to the complaint? No, it was the Captain of the Tin Foil Hat Brigade.

No issue here. I've always said the NCAA complaint originated on the Summitt.

And I will never, ever forgive them for the innuendo and lies about Maya and her Mom

That's the message board knuckleheads, to whom I refer in the paragraph you quoted.
The ones who go on about handbags and condos and pimping one's daughter and all else, with nary a verified fact to back it up.

I won't forgive the knuckleheads either. They make it impossible, by being such knuckleheads.

But I don't know of anyone official who said anything about Maya, other than Cronan's "in part" answer to a question. That could refer to the ESPN tour, it could refer to anything. She was under no obligation to supply the chapter and verse in that setting. Probably should've declined comment. But not an apologize-able moment.

or for making poor Kibitzer a victim of their venom for handing a cardboard sign to Ernie DelleDonne from his wheelchair.

Stupid pettiness, I agree. But they were entitled to file the complaint -- proper channels and all -- and end up looking foolish. It's kind of preposterous to imagine them apologizing for doing what they had the right, if the poor judgment, to do.

Don't think Kib was in a wheelchair at the time, BTW. He was roaming the stands, a two-legged NCAA-violating beast.

Anyway, as mentioned, the complaint was not without rationale. The rationale was that a university is supposed to exercise "institutional control" over a recruit's visit -- including publicity and potential access to the recruit of unauthorized recruiters. (Only the athletics staff, as we know, are authorized.)

The complaint wasn't crazy in concept, just kind of experimental and a few dim bulbs short of a chandelier in terms of (a) what can reasonably be expected of a university, and (b) taking the fight to the fans, which is the last thing the NCAA would want to do.

I cant imagine in a million years the folks at UConn taking seriously a bunch of people who live in their basement, living vicariously through the women's basketball team, I just can't.

Have you of all people turned against those of us, les miserables, who get a glimmer of joy from following our beloved team? Do you doubt for a moment the sagacity of our advice?

I protest. The basement part anyway. I live in an attic. Well, I sleep in a finished third floor bedroom suite with an enormous hot tub. In fact, that's where I get my best ideas for advice to the UConn athletics staff.

Which leads to your point that the TN staff shouldn't have taken the NCAA proposal seriously, and I agree, but I don't know the dynamic there in that community. I have the impression of more chumminess between the athletics staff and the more prominent message board denizens.

It's not like UConn's aversion to talking to us, despite the great ideas I get in my hot tub. I've had one phone call in all this time, not like your two junkets to pleasant seances with the staff.

But yeah, it seems the Tin Foil Proposal played into the hands of how PHS was feeling long about then. Threatened among other things, just as a guess.

Still no basis for apology though. "We apologize for stupidly taking the suggestion of a bunch of subterranean lamebrains with computers?" Hard to imagine that one. Won't happen, even if an accurate description of what they did.

 

[CL82]

I rather agree, because I don't see what exactly would be the subject of the apology.

1. The only public accusation was that UConn arranged or assisted in scheduling a tour by Maya of the nearby ESPN facility, because she was interested in sports journalism. A nothing violation, arguably not a violation at all, but UConn accepted a secondary violation for it rather than argue. Secondary violations are no big deal, and it's often pointed out here that TN has more of them than UConn does. There was some confusion in the news accounts at the time whether the ESPN thing was reported by Tennessee or self-reported by UConn, but regardless, UConn accepted that it was a violation, so what's to apologize for?

2. Everything else coming out of official TN about Maya was vague. Ms Cronin just acknowledged that TN's problem was "in part" about Maya Moore. Pat Summitt dropped some innuendo about UConn to the media in response to a question about Bruce Pearl, but the innuendo didn't even mention Maya by name.

3. As far as the innuendo, it was wrong and it's still being carried out by certain of PHS's minions and acolytes. But they aren't official, and as far as PHS herself, well, that was what it was.

4. As far as all the "other" stuff TN filed with the NCAA, it went through proper channels and it failed. I don't see an apology as necessary for taking something to the proper forum for adjudication, even if the motivation and/or the substance are questionable. Yes, it was aggravating to a lot of people, including some who post here, but it at least had a rationale. TN played a weak hand and lost. No apology necessary, IMO, for playing it.

5. The really disgusting, apology-warranting stuff about Maya and her mom has come, persistently for years, out of a group of dedicated ignoramuses on the TN message boards, especially the Summitt. But that's not an official source. It's barely even a human source. The university doesn't control those boards, so how can it apologize for what's said there?

Doesn't mean thoughtful folks can't come up with some kind of peacemaking proposal, joint statement, whatever. Diplomats paper over far more intransigent problems.

Personally, I'm fine with just playing in the tournament, if it breaks that way, and don't care whether it does or doesn't. I don't like what TN did, don't respect it, and certainly loath the message board feculence. But grounds for an official TN apology haven't been identified.

Agree generally, except that it doesn't address the "Geno knows what he did", Pat's BP comment, and the "doing things the right way line of crap" that regularly ladled out by the school. In light of that history, I think that it certainly is fair for Tennessee to say that "we know of no wrong doing by UConn other than items that were part of a report we sent to the NCAA and largely found not to be meritorious by them. We deeply regret any assertion to the contrary that may have been stated or implied by any UTenn employee."

That's pretty innocuous and would likely let everyone move on.

 

[DishNSwish]

For some reason I'm amused that when I had Jeff Goldberg on the podcast talking UConn-Tenn I was given a hard time by some for still talking about the series, that it was dead and buried.

I guess four pages of this thread means, to quote Monty Python, "I'm not quite dead yet!"

 

[HuskyNan]

Who is this vitriolic new poster who takes such sharp issue with my wisdom?

Oh . . . it's my esteemed colleague. I'll be civil.

No issue here. I've always said the NCAA complaint originated on the Summitt.

That's the message board knuckleheads, to whom I refer in the paragraph you quoted.
The ones who go on about handbags and condos and pimping one's daughter and all else, with nary a verified fact to back it up.

I won't forgive the knuckleheads either. They make it impossible, by being such knuckleheads.

But I don't know of anyone official who said anything about Maya, other than Cronan's "in part" answer to a question. That could refer to the ESPN tour, it could refer to anything. She was under no obligation to supply the chapter and verse in that setting. Probably should've declined comment. But not an apologize-able moment.

Stupid pettiness, I agree. But they were entitled to file the complaint -- proper channels and all -- and end up looking foolish. It's kind of preposterous to imagine them apologizing for doing what they had the right, if the poor judgment, to do.

Don't think Kib was in a wheelchair at the time, BTW. He was roaming the stands, a two-legged NCAA-violating beast.

Anyway, as mentioned, the complaint was not without rationale. The rationale was that a university is supposed to exercise "institutional control" over a recruit's visit -- including publicity and potential access to the recruit of unauthorized recruiters. (Only the athletics staff, as we know, are authorized.)

The complaint wasn't crazy in concept, just kind of experimental and a few dim bulbs short of a chandelier in terms of (a) what can reasonably be expected of a university, and (b) taking the fight to the fans, which is the last thing the NCAA would want to do.

Have you of all people turned against those of us, les miserables, who get a glimmer of joy from following our beloved team? Do you doubt for a moment the sagacity of our advice?

I protest. The basement part anyway. I live in an attic. Well, I sleep in a finished third floor bedroom suite with an enormous hot tub. In fact, that's where I get my best ideas for advice to the UConn athletics staff.

Which leads to your point that the TN staff shouldn't have taken the NCAA proposal seriously, and I agree, but I don't know the dynamic there in that community. I have the impression of more chumminess between the athletics staff and the more prominent message board denizens.

It's not like UConn's aversion to talking to us, despite the great ideas I get in my hot tub. I've had one phone call in all this time, not like your two junkets to pleasant seances with the staff.

But yeah, it seems the Tin Foil Proposal played into the hands of how PHS was feeling long about then. Threatened among other things, just as a guess.

Still no basis for apology though. "We apologize for stupidly taking the suggestion of a bunch of subterranean lamebrains with computers?" Hard to imagine that one. Won't happen, even if an accurate description of what they did.

Well, you've always been nicer than me anyway, despite your law degree. By the way, your response is very well-thought out and scholarly. You've always had the cool, intellectual disdain for the TFHB, rightly so, but they still manage to make my blood boil, hence the post. Too many good people got smeared, and continue to be smeared, by They Who Must Not Be Named.

It would be truly entertaining to see the Captain of the TFHB be made to apologize for being hateful and vile towards those good people. I'd pay some serious coin for that.

 

[PacoSwede]

Point of clarity; the real issue is NOT the list of little piss-ant violations filed y the SEC on behalf of UT. Kibitzergate, and all that. That was an annoyance, like the Vandy nonsense about the Mo'ne call. The real issue is the insinuation by Pat of far darker, awesomely awful actions .. .

Bingo! That's my grievance.

I don't need any apologies. I would be greatly satisfied though if ESPN or SI or some other major media outlet would do a story about the sliminess of responding only with 'Geno knows' when asked why the series was ended. Till this day we have not had an explanation. Media should explore this.

This kind of stuff is unforgivable; it can do incalculable damage.

A story about this would aid in my healing. I agree that all the rest is trivia that can disproved and thus shrivel into dust and blown away with the wind.

 

[mtsuraider06]

Bingo! That's my grievance.

I don't need any apologies. I would be greatly satisfied though if ESPN or SI or some other major media outlet would do a story about the sliminess of responding only with 'Geno knows' when asked why the series was ended. Till this day we have not had an explanation. Media should explore this.

This kind of stuff is unforgivable; it can do incalculable damage.

A story about this would aid in my healing. I agree that all the rest is trivia that can disproved and thus shrivel into dust and blown away with the wind.

You say that now, but what if the media did uncover something that UConn did that was covered up and reported it. Would that continue to aid your healing?

Let me be clear, I think it's over and done with. The NCAA found a secondary violation, and that should be the end of story. However, the NCAA doesn't police WBB, and many other sports, as much as it should. If the media were involved, say a reporter dedicated strictly to this, and they did find something, then what?

The same can be said about any school, including Tennessee. Is it better to let the NCAA continue as is, or begin involving the media to do the dirty work that the NCAA doesn't bother with?

 

[Huskies Rule]

You know this thread is like Groundhog Day.

Well, Rocky, as fat Clemenza said to Michael Corleone: " It's pretty goshdarn bad, but these things gotta happen every five years or so, ten years. Helps to get rid of the bad blood."

Two old but interesting articles to keep fueling the fire...

http://deadspin.com/5704435/how-pat-summitt-ruined-the-best-thing-about-womens-basketball

and one about the spurious 2006 SEC allegations http://sports.espn.go.com/ncw/news/story?id=3368175

 

[Alydar]

You say that now, but what if the media did uncover something that UConn did that was covered up and reported it. Would that continue to aid your healing?

Let me be clear, I think it's over and done with. The NCAA found a secondary violation, and that should be the end of story. However, the NCAA doesn't police WBB, and many other sports, as much as it should. If the media were involved, say a reporter dedicated strictly to this, and they did find something, then what?

The same can be said about any school, including Tennessee. Is it better to let the NCAA continue as is, or begin involving the media to do the dirty work that the NCAA doesn't bother with?

First, the idea that cheating isn't caught because the NCAA ignores cheating is simply another strawman that LV fans use to explain why UConn hasn't been "caught".

As for your question about "what if" i can only ask if your opinion of Pat Summitt would be changed if it was shown that her charge of cheating by UConn was nothing but a bald faced lie intended to smear UConn and ruin their reputation among recruits?

 

[mtsuraider06]

First, the idea that cheating isn't caught because the NCAA ignores cheating is simply another strawman that LV fans use to explain why UConn hasn't been "caught".

As for your question about "what if" i can only ask if your opinion of Pat Summitt would be changed if it was shown that her charge of cheating by UConn was nothing but a bald faced lie intended to smear UConn and ruin their reputation among recruits?

The only reason I said UConn is because this is a UConn board. As you can see at the bottom of my post, I said it could affect any school, including Tennessee.

It's obvious that the NCAA doesn't police WBB as much as it does Football or MBB. There are several examples of secondary violations involved WBB that would be much harsher on Football or MBB. I do think WBB are more quick to self-report than other sports, and that could be a reason why they aren't punished as harshly.

If it did come out that Pat lied and did all of this just to smear UConn, yes, my opinion of her would change. However, at the time the series was cancelled, Tennessee had beaten UConn three years in a row, and was the defending National Champions. If Pat was scared of competition, she would have cancelled the series in the early 2000s when we lost nine of 11 games to UConn.

I'm not getting into an argument about the series, because it doesn't matter. It's over.

My only question was regarding the "what ifs" of involving the media. To me, that's a slippery slope that a lot of coaches probably wouldn't want to climb.