Syracuse slapped hard by NCAA

[upstater]

The P5 is committing to full 4 year scholarships rather than the renewable each year ones currently in place. This will make it tougher to jettison the kids who don't work out.

Actually, the SEC is fighting this.

 

[upstater]

You do realize this and the APR are completely different?

This is not a APR violation, which results in a 1 year ban btw, this is a NCAA violation for lack of institutional control. APR has nothing to do with drug testing, impressible benefits, or academic fraud.

Cuse got much harsher penalties then we did from the NCAA, and they did much worse.

APR has nothing to do with academic fraud.

Is that what you just wrote?

 

[Jimdish255]

It is comical that people think this was a harsh penalty. No future post season ban means this was a slap on the wrist. In fact, it makes college basketball a joke. Did you see what they did?!?! Yeah, they deserved the death penalty and more. The scholarship reductions will have no impact on the talent level they put on the floor. Unlike Kentucky, they only get so many great players with the max being one at each position. After that, they get decent players. Of those decent players, only a couple ever play. They will still find two decent subs out of the 5 second tier recruits they will get. And if they actually end up with a dud where they thought they got a stud, they WILL boot out one of their second tier players to make room. This has nearly zero effect on the talent they will put on the floor. A post season ban would have caused their recruits to bail on them as well as current players. THAT would have hurt. This is a joke, considering what they did. I care less and less about this sport every year. The sport is filthy from the coaches to the NCAA itself and UConn gets screwed for being honest.

"Brilliant coaching. What a resilient program fighting back from the ashes! They were written off by everyone."
Get ready.

 

[Jerry1714]

APR has nothing to do with academic fraud.

Is that what you just wrote?

Sorry to burst your prism.

The academic fraud in Cuse's findings is not the same as what the APR, I know you know this, or at least I hope you do.

 

[TRest]

Actually, the SEC is fighting this.

It passed over the B12 and SEC's objections.

 

[upstater]

Sorry to burst your prism.

The academic fraud in Cuse's findings is not the same as what the APR, I know you know this, or at least I hope you do.

Academic fraud helps pump up your APR.

If UConn had committed academic fraud by passing through ineligible players, it wouldn't have reported them ineligible and thereby dented APR.

I'm really trying hard not to take this to a pedantic level.

 

[upstater]

It passed over the B12 and SEC's objections.

Thnx

 

[Jerry1714]

Academic fraud helps pump up your APR.

If UConn had committed academic fraud by passing through ineligible players, it wouldn't have reported them ineligible and thereby dented APR.

I'm really trying hard not to take this to a pedantic level.

Yea, obviously, but do you realize APR and this finding are not one and the same and trying to equate the two in terms of punishment makes no sense?

Also our APR had nothing to do with players failing classes, we got screwed on transfers and seniors like Gavin Edwards being too lazy to finish a month a school after the season ended.

 

[Dooley]

Untrue.

A postseason ban next year was warranted, at the very least.

What's our prism for viewing this? UConn's APR punishment.

Yup. The postseason ban announced this year to apply to this year doesn't do anything to their current roster. Our postseason ban was announced prior to the start of the season and, thus, we lost players to transfer because they were given enough of a fair warning. If the NCAA announced in January that we would not play in the postseason for that season, we don't lose players. And then there is the whole shameful act of picking a down year to self-impose penalties. Cheat for over a decade, pay the penalty in a down year, continue cheating in the next decade. Rinse and repeat (they have done it before).

Missing out on a few recruits doesn't capture headlines quite like losing players to transfer. UConn became the symbol of academic ineptitude and the majority of the country believes we are no better an academia than, say, Louisville because of it. Our penalty kept creating headlines for weeks/months afterward, thus cementing the negative perception throughout the country. Their penalty will be forgotten about in a week. With the Syracuse-centric sports media out there, I wouldn't be surprised if they are able to play the martyr. "Oh just look how hard Jimmy has his kids playing, even with all that is going on off the court."

Sorry, but this penalty falls short in my opinion. Yes, the scholarship reduction will hurt them. When we were docked scholarships over friggin' APR, it hurt us. It might still be hurting us. But a year+ worth of negative headlines against our school (not to mention, hurting our P5 profile) hurt too. I want those same headlines against Syracuse...they've earned 'em.

 

[Fishy]

Perhaps he read Calipari's book - leave before the s hit hits the fan.

This might actually help him.

I don't think the AD wanted to hire him - Gross would dearly love to have a star turn and the spotlight in hiring a new coach.

Despite reports, Hopkins really has nothing on paper and he's chased a good number of jobs over the past few years including USC, Oregon State, BC, etc. Rumor has it that he doesn't interview well and he hasn't landed any of the gigs he was after.

If Boeheim retires at the end of the next year or two, it might be tough to bring in a top coach who won't want to deal with two or three years of reduced scholarships and probation.

They might have to hire Hopkins just to save face.

 

[upstater]

Yea, obviously, but do you realize APR and this finding are not one and the same and trying to equate the two in terms of punishment makes no sense?

Also our APR had nothing to do with players failing classes, we got screwed on transfers and seniors like Gavin Edwards being too lazy to finish a month a school after the season ended.

I can't do any better than explaining that Syracuse was keeping kids eligible when they were ineligible.

Any ineligible kid is going to ding your APR

 

[MattMang23]

This is the most damaging aspect of the penalties in my view. SU is stuck with Hopkins now for better or most likely worse. No sought after coach is going to follow Boeheim with these recruiting anchors. Maybe they would not have before, but the chances are far slimmer now.

They're not stuck with Hopkins. Someone is falling on the sword for this and it ain't gonna be Boeheim. Hopkins is playing the role of Sellers on this one.

 

[Husky25]

Boeheim is appealing his suspension. First talking point is based on the UNC defense: Everyone on campus was doing drugs and therefore it was not an athletic department violation and therefore NCAA has no jurisdiction.

 

[TRest]

This might actually help him.

I don't think the AD wanted to hire him - Gross would dearly love to have a star turn and the spotlight in hiring a new coach.

Despite reports, Hopkins really has nothing on paper and he's chased a good number of jobs over the past few years including USC, Oregon State, BC, etc. Rumor has it that he doesn't interview well and he hasn't landed any of the gigs he was after.

If Boeheim retires at the end of the next year or two, it might be tough to bring in a top coach who won't want to deal with two or three years of reduced scholarships and probation.

They might have to hire Hopkins just to save face.

How does Gross survive this? I know it's a myopic cesspool up there, but can't anyone understand that athletic department is corrupt from the top down?

 

[Fishy]

How does Gross survive this? I know it's a myopic cesspool up there, but can't anyone understand that athletic department is corrupt from the top down?

I don't know how Boeheim survives it let alone an athletic director who advised ignoring their own rule book.

This doesn't speak well of Syracuse as an institution - they're blaming everyone but the coach and he's now one of the most heavily-penalized coaches ever to come down the pike.

Money trumps honor.

 

[August_West]

Nm

 

[FAIRTIDES]

Boeheim is appealing his suspension. First talking point is based on the UNC defense: Everyone on campus was doing drugs and therefore it was not an athletic department violation and therefore NCAA has no jurisdiction.

Speaking of UNC, I have a feeling that Cuse's less that satisfying (to some) punishment is, in some part, due to the UNC investigation and outcome. Sort of like figure skating or diving judges, the NCAA has to leave room so UNC's punishment will be seen as harsh, in comparison. Give Cuse a double damn. Then, all that's needed is a double damn, damn for UNC. Emmert gets to say he's doing his job while continuing to do nothing.

By the way, one-half (Mother's side) of my family is North Carolinian; with 5 living UNC Alums or attendees. Those I've talked to think a nuclear "embarrassment bomb" is about to hit dear old Blue U. Pray for us Charley Justice!

 

[Marty Jackson]

here's the real question... do they get to keep those Helm's Championships?

 

[CL82]

Recruiting restrictions, plus losing three scholarships a year for four years is really, really going to hurt.

It's going to hurt the next coach of Syracuse more than the current one.

Even worse, it just tags their program forever. This is the second time around.

Bilas doesn't think so. Check out his video on ESPN.

I haven't read through this whole thread so I don't know if this was already posted but if anyone wants to read the actual decision you can get it here.

For what it's worth, if you report honestly and don't meet the APR you get a post season ban, but if you don't report honestly you can wait until you are not going make the playoff and then self report and sanction yourself by forfeiting a post season that you wouldn't have made any way.

Still Beoheim has less wins, 'cuse has forfeits two BET championships and two regular season championships, that's something.

 

[Fishy]

I saw Bilas' video and got the same feeling that I get more and more with him....he doesn't always know what he's talking about.

He was reacting to the penalties without having read the report.

Whether it's a deterrent or not, he's right - who knows.

But you're right...the APR is a joke.

Our biggest mistake was playing it straight.

Syracuse, who was having APR issues at the time, allowed a kid to re-open a course he had taken A YEAR PRIOR and ask for extra credit. And then he submitted a paper. And three subsequent revisions. And he received extra credit and was deemed eligible.

All that took place in one afternoon. (And an advisor did all the work.)

Now...can you imagine what they actually got away with?

 

[Chin Diesel]

I don't know how Boeheim survives it let alone an athletic director who advised ignoring their own rule book.

This doesn't speak well of Syracuse as an institution - they're blaming everyone but the coach and he's now one of the most heavily-penalized coaches ever to come down the pike.

Money trumps honor.

Makes me want to work at SU. Chancellor and President are every employee's dream bosses.

Chancellor: So, how are things going? Anything I can help you with?

Me: No. There's this pesky drug policy we wrote a decade ago. So confusing, I just ignored it and decided to ad lib. I'm basically creating rules on the fly.

Chancellor: It's pretty risky to go Crazy Ivan against our written policy. Shouldn't we re-write in to a coherent policy that can be followed?

Me: No.

Chancellor: Okay. Talk to you next year.

 

[Walker11]

I saw Bilas' video and got the same feeling that I get more and more with him....he doesn't always know what he's talking about.

He was reacting to the penalties without having read the report.

Whether it's a deterrent or not, he's right - who knows.

But you're right...the APR is a joke.

Our biggest mistake was playing it straight.

Syracuse, who was having APR issues at the time, allowed a kid to re-open a course he had taken A YEAR PRIOR and ask for extra credit. And then he submitted a paper. And three subsequent revisions. And he received extra credit and was deemed eligible.

All that took place in one afternoon. (And an advisor did all the work.)

Now...can you imagine what they actually got away with?

goshdarn that is egregious. I stand by my claim that the penalty is going to be hugely problematic but these guys deserve the death penalty.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

I can't comment on severity of the punishment since I don't have a full picture of the transgressions. However, no post season ban after this year seems lite to me. They had already banned themselves with their performance. At least add a ban for next year too.

If Jimmy Bunz stays a few more years I think the blow of the school reduction will be greatly softened.

 

[pj]

Yea, obviously, but do you realize APR and this finding are not one and the same and trying to equate the two in terms of punishment makes no sense?

Also our APR had nothing to do with players failing classes, we got screwed on transfers and seniors like Gavin Edwards being too lazy to finish a month a school after the season ended.

It makes no sense to argue that the punishment for accurately and honestly reporting a student's failure should be less severe than the punishment for fraudulently and dishonestly covering it up?

By the way, dropping out of school only affected the APR because it caused the students to fail classes.

 

[Paesano]

I have a couple of questions for those who think this is a harsh punishment. I will start with this, which seasons do you think will be impacted by this punishment?

 

[John]

Makes me want to work at SU. Chancellor and President are every employee's dream bosses.

Chancellor: So, how are things going? Anything I can help you with?

Me: No. There's this pesky drug policy we wrote a decade ago. So confusing, I just ignored it and decided to ad lib. I'm basically creating rules on the fly.

Chancellor: It's pretty risky to go Crazy Ivan against our written policy. Shouldn't we re-write in to a coherent policy that can be followed?

Me: No.

Chancellor: Okay. Talk to you next year.

"We have another Cuse Crazy Ivan off the port bow!!!"

-Jonesy

 

[Chin Diesel]

I have a couple of questions for those who think this is a harsh punishment. I will start with this, which seasons do you think will be impacted by this punishment?

Syracuse's program. I don't know or care if it impacts any individual, but SU basketball has zero room for error in recruiting and developing players, keeping players healthy and any other attrition. Plus, they are on 5 years probation so they have to at least pretend to be following rules.

Three scholarships for 4 years in basketball is huge.

Plus as others have noted, Hopkins, while already designated coach in waiting, has had wandering eyes. He is now damaged goods. And SU will have trouble attracting a high profile replacement while they are under sanctions. See Indiana trying to recover from Kelvin Sampson.
Finally, these results put heat on Daryl Gross.

 

[Chin Diesel]

"We have another Cuse Crazy Ivan off the port bow!!!"

-Jonesy

 

[Excalibur]

This times a million.

90% of this board was not going to be happy unless Cuse got the death penalty, some people are even arguing our NCAA sanctions were worse. It is comical.

Vacated wins is a symbolic penalty and means nothing. Their postseason ban means nothing because it has no affect on recruiting since no incoming recruits will miss postseason play.

They lost more scholarships for a longer period of time, but nothing affects recruiting like a future postseason ban. They should have been barred for an additional year.

 

[Chin Diesel]