Step back jump shots are illegal?

[Carnac]

Now that they've started to look at the step back jumper, how about palming the ball? I love Paige and IMO she is clearly the best young PG in WCBB and will make a great Olympian. However, she is as guilty as many others in turning that ball over with her dribble. Like I said she's hardly alone in this. 80-85% of players in BB do it. Refs should start calling this in grammar schools and coaches and trainers should start teaching kids early how to dribble without palming.

Jordy you’re opening up a can of worms that deserves its own thread. I agree with your take. Most kids that begin to play the game learn to handle the ball by palming it because their hands are so small.

I was in attendance for lots of Laker games during the “show time” era at the Forum. Magic Johnson would constantly palm the ball. It was NEVER called.

 

[CocoHusky]

Jordy you’re opening up a can of worms that deserves its own thread. I agree with your take. Most kids that begin to play the game learn to handle the ball by palming it because their hands are so small.

I was in attendance for lots of Laker games during the “show time” era at the Forum. Magic Johnson would constantly palm the ball. It was NEVER called.

Not to stray too much further off topic but the NCAA had a pretty good comprise regarding palming the ball circa 2010-11. The comprise was you can stand out in the open court and palm all day but the second you try to get by a defender by palming the ball it was called. Palming gives the offensive player way too much of an advantage IMO-says this defensive bigot.

 

[topogigio]

Gotta agree, many players do travel on the step back, it is tough to do properly. I'm more interested in the total demise of the "palming', "carrying" or "turning it over" on the dribble. Paige has a great handle, but geesh, much of her dribbling involves wrapping her hands around the ball, and "carrying" it, as we used to say. The men's professional and college game would be drastically different if the rules were enforced as written. If you want to see pure ball handling magic view old Bob Cousy or Pete Maravich videos.

 

[bballnut90]

Bilas is an idiot and often posts incorrect info to match his agenda. Reports are that refs have been instructed to watch step back jumpers more closely for violations. It all depends on where your feet are when you actually gather the ball with your hands. Some are perfectly legal. Some are clearly illegal. I have literally seen hundreds of step back jumpers allowed this year in college games.

No doubt some of the more incompetent refs are unable to differentiate between a legal move and an illegal one, and will simply whistle all of them. But most will not.

Thanks for sharing. I cant stand Bilas btw.....he comes off as so condescending to me.

In regards to the traveling rule, I think refs should call it tighter. If a player travels, then it's a turnover. Plain and simple. Whether it's someone shuffling feet before a ball fake, stepping back with both feet or taking a bunny hop before a shot to get in rhythm like Kia Nurse and KLS used to do. Calling players on it will force them to change bad habits and improve.

 

[JordyG]

Not to stray too much further off topic but the NCAA had a pretty good comprise regarding palming the ball circa 2010-11. The comprise was you can stand out in the open court and palm all day but the second you try to get by a defender by palming the ball it was called. Palming gives the offensive player way too much of an advantage IMO-says this defensive bigot.

So many palm the ball when they do a cross over that it's never called. Some do it on their in/out dribble as well.

 

[JordyG]

Why though? The James Harden's move is legal, based on the rule.

The thing is Harden is a product of the times. The rules say such so I'm going to take advantage of them. If he's not going to be called on his travel, why change? The rules in BB favor the 3 point shot and the layup, that what he'll take advantage of. The refs call a foul when someone passes gas near me, so I'll predicate my game around 3 pt shots, layups and drawing fouls. The problem is, as I've pointed out on numerous occasions is that once the playoffs come refs swallow their whistle which takes away from his foul shooting and they allow more physical play on drives to the basket. That takes away his layup. Then when defenders play him tight on the perimeter he's forced into bad shots. His game makes for a big contracts and big regular season numbers, but little in the way of championships.

 

[MD#12Fan]

What about Olivia's fadeaway? Has anyone paid attention to her footwork when she pulls back?
Off-topic, but I would prefer if she developed a skyhook in preference to her current fade.

All post players should have both moves in their repertoire. They should also have drop step, crab dribble, layup from both sides. Hooks from both sides. Short jumpers from each side. Up and under from both sides.
That's 8.
Pete Newell- historic Ca Berkeley basketball coach, NCAA champion- regarded as the guru on post moves.
Google it and you can see some classic stuff, including protecting the ball in the post by "chinning the ball".

 

[MD#12Fan]

The one that confuses me is when a post player establishes a pivot foot, makes a move, like a drop step or an up and under, and then takes a step without dribbling. Seems like traveling to me. I think the DePaul post got away with that and I think Liv fouled her, not expecting her to be able to move another step.
Phees used to get away with it often.
If that's not traveling then theoretically that move can be made anywhere on the floor. Like you pivot to get out of a trap and take one more step to free yourself. I don't think it's right.

 

[southofnorth]

I am so happy about this. The NBA lets players travel constantly and it's caused basketball at every level to suffer. Like, in real basketball rules, James Harden would be called for a travel almost every time he touches the ball.

Couldn’t agree more. So many players now use the Harden “step back” (pick up the ball and then move both feet back or to the side) and it’s blatantly a travel. Traveling is this era’s version of “bully ball”. They wouldn’t call a foul until someone was bleeding (and sometimes not even then) and now they won’t call a travel even if someone picks up the balls and runs it like they’re trying to score a touchdown. It’s getting ridiculous in the NBA.

 

[the Q]

How does the "step and a half" rule apply in this situation? Aren't shooters permitted a so-called "gather step"? On a driving layup, that would certainly be the case. Is the rule different for a jump shot?

I notice the following quotation in the Kansas City Mercury article:

"Things get murky when trying to identify the “gather step,” or the moment when the player ends his dribble.
At that point, players are allowed two legal steps. Diarra took advantage in the above example, ending his dribble then using two steps — his right foot to step back and his left to come set — to create space and fire."

But the article also quotes the supervisor of officials for the Big 12 saying that he wants this step taken out of the game because (he says) it is indefensible, which does not seem like a good reason to outlaw something that is legal under the rules.

I’ thought that bs father step rule was an NBA made for tv rule. It’s awful

 

[southofnorth]

Now that they've started to look at the step back jumper, how about palming the ball? I love Paige and IMO she is clearly the best young PG in WCBB and will make a great Olympian. However, she is as guilty as many others in turning that ball over with her dribble. Like I said she's hardly alone in this. 80-85% of players in BB do it. Refs should start calling this in grammar schools and coaches and trainers should start teaching kids early how to dribble without palming.

Moriah Jefferson and Bria Hartley were legendary about doing this. I remember Kim Mulkey always calling for a carry whenever Hartley was dribbling because it was just how she dribbled. It’s difficult to tell when it’s a carry vs when it’s just side to top to change the direction of the ball (the latter of which is legal), but I agree that this should be the next major thing looked at.

 

[the Q]

The one that confuses me is when a post player establishes a pivot foot, makes a move, like a drop step or an up and under, and then takes a step without dribbling. Seems like traveling to me. I think the DePaul post got away with that and I think Liv fouled her, not expecting her to be able to move another step.
Phees used to get away with it often.
If that's not traveling then theoretically that move can be made anywhere on the floor. Like you pivot to get out of a trap and take one more step to free yourself. I don't think it's right.

As long as it’s the same foot moving while the pivot stays planted, it’s fine.

If I a nickel for every time a coach wanted a travel when a player moved the same non-pivot foot twice...I wouldn’t need to ref anymore lol

 

[the Q]

Now that they've started to look at the step back jumper, how about palming the ball? I love Paige and IMO she is clearly the best young PG in WCBB and will make a great Olympian. However, she is as guilty as many others in turning that ball over with her dribble. Like I said she's hardly alone in this. 80-85% of players in BB do it. Refs should start calling this in grammar schools and coaches and trainers should start teaching kids early how to dribble without palming.

The problem is it goes in reverse.

It’s not called at the higher levels and trickles down college then hs etc

 

[JordyG]

The problem is it goes in reverse.

It’s not called at the higher levels and trickles down college then hs etc

However kids learn to do it in grammar school. Not at the pro level. That is where it is first learned and tolerated.

 

[Cuango]

What about Olivia's fadeaway? Has anyone paid attention to her footwork when she pulls back?
Off-topic, but I would prefer if she developed a skyhook in preference to her current fade.

Somehow, I don’t think it would bother Geno if that fadeaway of Liv’s went the way of the dodo bird.

 

[donalddoowop]

Now that they've started to look at the step back jumper, how about palming the ball? I love Paige and IMO she is clearly the best young PG in WCBB and will make a great Olympian. However, she is as guilty as many others in turning that ball over with her dribble. Like I said she's hardly alone in this. 80-85% of players in BB do it. Refs should start calling this in grammar schools and coaches and trainers should start teaching kids early how to dribble without palming.

Most, or many grammar school refs don't know the rules.

 

[the Q]

Most, or many grammar school refs don't know the rules.

neither do the coaches.

the refs are in a tough spot simply because calling it like a hs game would mean a 7 hour 0-0 affair in many cases. At some points you need to just relax a bit and let the kids play and learn a bit

 

[MD#12Fan]

neither do the coaches.

the refs are in a tough spot simply because calling it like a hs game would mean a 7 hour 0-0 affair in many cases. At some points you need to just relax a bit and let the kids play and learn a bit

At the high school level? Really??? I can see "let 'em play" at the youth level. HS ??? Ugh!
Your comment above was smart and nuanced about having the pivot foot planted and then another step with the lead foot. Fine, point taken. Not what I saw, but a good point. Then you said, "let 'em play". I'm lost.
Are you saying that basketball rules are too hard to learn? I think that's legit if that's what you believe. I honestly believe the wide receiver- defensive back rules are so complicated, that nobody understands them. I think it hurts the game. What's an 80 yard drive with 3-4 PI penalties. They need to change the rules back to some common sense standard. I think they successfully did that with holding penalties on linemen. I honestly think everyone understands holding, players, refs, coaches, and fans. When they grab and turn the player, it's holding.
So, do you think traveling is too difficult to teach, learn, and call on the court? I played through college and I felt like I knew in my head what traveling was. I got called a bunch on that play that Paige had called a few times, when you move both feet on a drive before you put the ball down. It's a travel.

 

[the Q]

At the high school level? Really??? I can see "let 'em play" at the youth level. HS ??? Ugh!
Your comment above was smart and nuanced about having the pivot foot planted and then another step with the lead foot. Fine, point taken. Not what I saw, but a good point. Then you said, "let 'em play". I'm lost.
Are you saying that basketball rules are too hard to learn? I think that's legit if that's what you believe. I honestly believe the wide receiver- defensive back rules are so complicated, that nobody understands them. I think it hurts the game. What's an 80 yard drive with 3-4 PI penalties. They need to change the rules back to some common sense standard. I think they successfully did that with holding penalties on linemen. I honestly think everyone understands holding, players, refs, coaches, and fans. When they grab and turn the player, it's holding.
So, do you think traveling is too difficult to teach, learn, and call on the court? I played through college and I felt like I knew in my head what traveling was. I got called a bunch on that play that Paige had called a few times, when you move both feet on a drive before you put the ball down. It's a travel.

That was about grammar school. Which I consider to be sub 4th grade.

 

[MD#12Fan]

That was about grammar school. Which I consider to be sub 4th grade.

I'm ok with that! I misread, I thought you meant HS. My bad!

 

[the Q]

I'm ok with that! I misread, I thought you meant HS. My bad!

it’s all good!

Honestly even 5th and 6th grade I’m fine with some lax stuff. Once you get to 7th and 8th grade (middle school team age) you gotta call it like they’re already in hs. Tight and by the book.

 

[Woof 101]

Now that they've started to look at the step back jumper, how about palming the ball? I love Paige and IMO she is clearly the best young PG in WCBB and will make a great Olympian. However, she is as guilty as many others in turning that ball over with her dribble. Like I said she's hardly alone in this. 80-85% of players in BB do it. Refs should start calling this in grammar schools and coaches and trainers should start teaching kids early how to dribble without palming.

Agree with JordyG here very much. The problem now is to reverse the trend would take the years it has gotten to get to this point. Yes young dogs can learn new tricks but years of ingrained moves are hard to break. My guess is someone with the skill and determination of Paige she would work on it and succeed but it would take time.
I think I just have to live with the fact of how much the game has changed as I knew it. OK already got a little off topic here so I won't even go into moving picks running rampant.

 

[the Q]

Agree with JordyG here very much. The problem now is to reverse the trend would take the years it has gotten to get to this point. Yes young dogs can learn new tricks but years of ingrained moves are hard to break. My guess is someone with the skill and determination of Paige she would work on it and succeed but it would take time.
I think I just have to live with the fact of how much the game has changed as I knew it. OK already got a little off topic here so I won't even go into moving picks running rampant.

Ugh. Hate that too.

I have watched 2 minutes of NBA basketball in the last decade.

it had at least 7 illegal picks

 

[JordyG]

Ugh. Hate that too.

I have watched 2 minutes of NBA basketball in the last decade.

it had at least 7 illegal picks

..and let's not talk about steps to the basket.