Step back jump shots are illegal?

[JordyG]

Why though? The James Harden's move is legal, based on the rule.

The thing is Harden is a product of the times. The rules say such so I'm going to take advantage of them. If he's not going to be called on his travel, why change? The rules in BB favor the 3 point shot and the layup, that what he'll take advantage of. The refs call a foul when someone passes gas near me, so I'll predicate my game around 3 pt shots, layups and drawing fouls. The problem is, as I've pointed out on numerous occasions is that once the playoffs come refs swallow their whistle which takes away from his foul shooting and they allow more physical play on drives to the basket. That takes away his layup. Then when defenders play him tight on the perimeter he's forced into bad shots. His game makes for a big contracts and big regular season numbers, but little in the way of championships.

 

[browns]

Have you seen this?

Refs are going to call that but never call palming..This goes back to when Allen iverson played..he couldn't bring the ball upcourt without palming...an its gotten absurd..men and women..they don't know how to dribble without palming.Watch Paige..she palms the ball all the time..who is terrific by the way

 

[MD#12Fan]

What about Olivia's fadeaway? Has anyone paid attention to her footwork when she pulls back?
Off-topic, but I would prefer if she developed a skyhook in preference to her current fade.

All post players should have both moves in their repertoire. They should also have drop step, crab dribble, layup from both sides. Hooks from both sides. Short jumpers from each side. Up and under from both sides.
That's 8.
Pete Newell- historic Ca Berkeley basketball coach, NCAA champion- regarded as the guru on post moves.
Google it and you can see some classic stuff, including protecting the ball in the post by "chinning the ball".

 

[MD#12Fan]

The one that confuses me is when a post player establishes a pivot foot, makes a move, like a drop step or an up and under, and then takes a step without dribbling. Seems like traveling to me. I think the DePaul post got away with that and I think Liv fouled her, not expecting her to be able to move another step.
Phees used to get away with it often.
If that's not traveling then theoretically that move can be made anywhere on the floor. Like you pivot to get out of a trap and take one more step to free yourself. I don't think it's right.

 

[southofnorth]

I am so happy about this. The NBA lets players travel constantly and it's caused basketball at every level to suffer. Like, in real basketball rules, James Harden would be called for a travel almost every time he touches the ball.

Couldn’t agree more. So many players now use the Harden “step back” (pick up the ball and then move both feet back or to the side) and it’s blatantly a travel. Traveling is this era’s version of “bully ball”. They wouldn’t call a foul until someone was bleeding (and sometimes not even then) and now they won’t call a travel even if someone picks up the balls and runs it like they’re trying to score a touchdown. It’s getting ridiculous in the NBA.

 

[the Q]

How does the "step and a half" rule apply in this situation? Aren't shooters permitted a so-called "gather step"? On a driving layup, that would certainly be the case. Is the rule different for a jump shot?

I notice the following quotation in the Kansas City Mercury article:

"Things get murky when trying to identify the “gather step,” or the moment when the player ends his dribble.
At that point, players are allowed two legal steps. Diarra took advantage in the above example, ending his dribble then using two steps — his right foot to step back and his left to come set — to create space and fire."

But the article also quotes the supervisor of officials for the Big 12 saying that he wants this step taken out of the game because (he says) it is indefensible, which does not seem like a good reason to outlaw something that is legal under the rules.

I’ thought that bs father step rule was an NBA made for tv rule. It’s awful

 

[southofnorth]

Now that they've started to look at the step back jumper, how about palming the ball? I love Paige and IMO she is clearly the best young PG in WCBB and will make a great Olympian. However, she is as guilty as many others in turning that ball over with her dribble. Like I said she's hardly alone in this. 80-85% of players in BB do it. Refs should start calling this in grammar schools and coaches and trainers should start teaching kids early how to dribble without palming.

Moriah Jefferson and Bria Hartley were legendary about doing this. I remember Kim Mulkey always calling for a carry whenever Hartley was dribbling because it was just how she dribbled. It’s difficult to tell when it’s a carry vs when it’s just side to top to change the direction of the ball (the latter of which is legal), but I agree that this should be the next major thing looked at.

 

[the Q]

The one that confuses me is when a post player establishes a pivot foot, makes a move, like a drop step or an up and under, and then takes a step without dribbling. Seems like traveling to me. I think the DePaul post got away with that and I think Liv fouled her, not expecting her to be able to move another step.
Phees used to get away with it often.
If that's not traveling then theoretically that move can be made anywhere on the floor. Like you pivot to get out of a trap and take one more step to free yourself. I don't think it's right.

As long as it’s the same foot moving while the pivot stays planted, it’s fine.

If I a nickel for every time a coach wanted a travel when a player moved the same non-pivot foot twice...I wouldn’t need to ref anymore lol

 

[the Q]

Now that they've started to look at the step back jumper, how about palming the ball? I love Paige and IMO she is clearly the best young PG in WCBB and will make a great Olympian. However, she is as guilty as many others in turning that ball over with her dribble. Like I said she's hardly alone in this. 80-85% of players in BB do it. Refs should start calling this in grammar schools and coaches and trainers should start teaching kids early how to dribble without palming.

The problem is it goes in reverse.

It’s not called at the higher levels and trickles down college then hs etc

 

[JordyG]

The problem is it goes in reverse.

It’s not called at the higher levels and trickles down college then hs etc

However kids learn to do it in grammar school. Not at the pro level. That is where it is first learned and tolerated.

 

[Cuango]

What about Olivia's fadeaway? Has anyone paid attention to her footwork when she pulls back?
Off-topic, but I would prefer if she developed a skyhook in preference to her current fade.

Somehow, I don’t think it would bother Geno if that fadeaway of Liv’s went the way of the dodo bird.

 

[donalddoowop]

Now that they've started to look at the step back jumper, how about palming the ball? I love Paige and IMO she is clearly the best young PG in WCBB and will make a great Olympian. However, she is as guilty as many others in turning that ball over with her dribble. Like I said she's hardly alone in this. 80-85% of players in BB do it. Refs should start calling this in grammar schools and coaches and trainers should start teaching kids early how to dribble without palming.

Most, or many grammar school refs don't know the rules.

 

[the Q]

Most, or many grammar school refs don't know the rules.

neither do the coaches.

the refs are in a tough spot simply because calling it like a hs game would mean a 7 hour 0-0 affair in many cases. At some points you need to just relax a bit and let the kids play and learn a bit

 

[MD#12Fan]

neither do the coaches.

the refs are in a tough spot simply because calling it like a hs game would mean a 7 hour 0-0 affair in many cases. At some points you need to just relax a bit and let the kids play and learn a bit

At the high school level? Really??? I can see "let 'em play" at the youth level. HS ??? Ugh!
Your comment above was smart and nuanced about having the pivot foot planted and then another step with the lead foot. Fine, point taken. Not what I saw, but a good point. Then you said, "let 'em play". I'm lost.
Are you saying that basketball rules are too hard to learn? I think that's legit if that's what you believe. I honestly believe the wide receiver- defensive back rules are so complicated, that nobody understands them. I think it hurts the game. What's an 80 yard drive with 3-4 PI penalties. They need to change the rules back to some common sense standard. I think they successfully did that with holding penalties on linemen. I honestly think everyone understands holding, players, refs, coaches, and fans. When they grab and turn the player, it's holding.
So, do you think traveling is too difficult to teach, learn, and call on the court? I played through college and I felt like I knew in my head what traveling was. I got called a bunch on that play that Paige had called a few times, when you move both feet on a drive before you put the ball down. It's a travel.

 

[the Q]

At the high school level? Really??? I can see "let 'em play" at the youth level. HS ??? Ugh!
Your comment above was smart and nuanced about having the pivot foot planted and then another step with the lead foot. Fine, point taken. Not what I saw, but a good point. Then you said, "let 'em play". I'm lost.
Are you saying that basketball rules are too hard to learn? I think that's legit if that's what you believe. I honestly believe the wide receiver- defensive back rules are so complicated, that nobody understands them. I think it hurts the game. What's an 80 yard drive with 3-4 PI penalties. They need to change the rules back to some common sense standard. I think they successfully did that with holding penalties on linemen. I honestly think everyone understands holding, players, refs, coaches, and fans. When they grab and turn the player, it's holding.
So, do you think traveling is too difficult to teach, learn, and call on the court? I played through college and I felt like I knew in my head what traveling was. I got called a bunch on that play that Paige had called a few times, when you move both feet on a drive before you put the ball down. It's a travel.

That was about grammar school. Which I consider to be sub 4th grade.

 

[MD#12Fan]

That was about grammar school. Which I consider to be sub 4th grade.

I'm ok with that! I misread, I thought you meant HS. My bad!

 

[the Q]

I'm ok with that! I misread, I thought you meant HS. My bad!

it’s all good!

Honestly even 5th and 6th grade I’m fine with some lax stuff. Once you get to 7th and 8th grade (middle school team age) you gotta call it like they’re already in hs. Tight and by the book.

 

[Woof 101]

Now that they've started to look at the step back jumper, how about palming the ball? I love Paige and IMO she is clearly the best young PG in WCBB and will make a great Olympian. However, she is as guilty as many others in turning that ball over with her dribble. Like I said she's hardly alone in this. 80-85% of players in BB do it. Refs should start calling this in grammar schools and coaches and trainers should start teaching kids early how to dribble without palming.

Agree with JordyG here very much. The problem now is to reverse the trend would take the years it has gotten to get to this point. Yes young dogs can learn new tricks but years of ingrained moves are hard to break. My guess is someone with the skill and determination of Paige she would work on it and succeed but it would take time.
I think I just have to live with the fact of how much the game has changed as I knew it. OK already got a little off topic here so I won't even go into moving picks running rampant.

 

[the Q]

Agree with JordyG here very much. The problem now is to reverse the trend would take the years it has gotten to get to this point. Yes young dogs can learn new tricks but years of ingrained moves are hard to break. My guess is someone with the skill and determination of Paige she would work on it and succeed but it would take time.
I think I just have to live with the fact of how much the game has changed as I knew it. OK already got a little off topic here so I won't even go into moving picks running rampant.

Ugh. Hate that too.

I have watched 2 minutes of NBA basketball in the last decade.

it had at least 7 illegal picks

 

[JordyG]

Ugh. Hate that too.

I have watched 2 minutes of NBA basketball in the last decade.

it had at least 7 illegal picks

..and let's not talk about steps to the basket.

 

[the Q]

..and let's not talk about steps to the basket.

That number also is about 7...

 

[MD#12Fan]

Agree with JordyG here very much. The problem now is to reverse the trend would take the years it has gotten to get to this point. Yes young dogs can learn new tricks but years of ingrained moves are hard to break. My guess is someone with the skill and determination of Paige she would work on it and succeed but it would take time.
I think I just have to live with the fact of how much the game has changed as I knew it. OK already got a little off topic here so I won't even go into moving picks running rampant.

I respectfully believe setting up rules and enforcing them should be easy. I am a classroom teacher and the easiest thing I can do is institute a rule, such as "no gum chewing". How simple is that? Where is the gray with that? (personally, I never asked for that, because I felt that I "had bigger fish to fry") Now, what happens when you have the rule, but you don't enforce it. Newsflash: they chew gum. I'd argue that's what happens with these rules like palming and maybe traveling.
All they have to do is enforce the rules on the books. From my coaching and playing experience, what happens is that officials have "points of emphasis" from time to time in order to get things back on track. Like the wishy-washy teacher saying, "guys, no more gum chewing".
Last point: if a rule is too hard to explain and enforce, then it needs to change. Rewrite the doggone rule.
So, as a teacher, rather than arguing with adolescents when I needed to be teaching them, I decided not to have a gum chewing rule. Palming???
I also think one has to ask, why do we have the rule to begin with. I think in hoops it's about maintaining no unfair advantages between players. For example: verticality, hand-checking, pushing, grabbing, traveling.
With teaching IMO it's about the children's safety and whether the classroom is a place in which learning can occur. Gum? Who cares?

 

[Zinethar]

"Carrying, also colloquially referred to as palming, is a violation in the game of basketball. It occurs when the dribbling player continues to dribble after allowing the ball to come to rest in one or both hands. Carrying is similar to a double dribble because the player momentarily stops dribbling and then resumes dribbling. If the player is in motion while carrying the ball, then it is similar to traveling (3+ steps). Players can avoid a carrying violation by keeping their palms facing the floor while dribbling.

Most basketball players slide their hand to one side of the ball when dribbling to better control the ball, directing it from left to right and vice versa. So long as the ball does not come to rest, not only is this legal, but it also allows more control and easier ball-handling. The problem arises when the ball-handler slides their hand too far down the side of the ball and has their hand below it. A carrying violation is called once the player’s hand is below the ball’s plane of 90° and the required up and down motion of the ball significantly stops." From Wikipedia.

Paige in general does not palm the ball. Putting the hand on the side of the ball is legal (where the side stops and bottom starts males this rule almost impossible to enforce. But the key is also causing the ball to pause. It actually would be possible to palm the ball while having the hand on top of the ball if your hands were large enough to actually hold it in place. That would most likely result in a traveling call.

 

[jabstep]

I for one like the innovative things that are done by offensive players especially smaller players to avoid getting their shot blocked by larger players. A totally defensive game is kinda boring. Stepbacks have been around for 50 years. In some form or another. I know I learned it from Ernie D playing him one vs one every day.

 

[JoePgh]

To which "step and a half" rule are you referring? Where is the "gather step" in the NCAA rules? I don't see it in the NCAA Women's Basketball rules. See NCAA Publications - 2019-20 and 2020-21 NCAA Women's Basketball Rules and Interpretations (electronic versions updated Sept. 1, 2020)
See download options check "Download PDF Free."
Click on DOWNLOAD NOW.
Go to page 80 for traveling rules.
Which rules refers to "step and a half" and "gather step" or are these rules Homeric fan rules.

I can't claim to be a basketball rules lawyer, but I did read the traveling rules on Page 80 of the PDF that you referenced. I agree with you that they do not appear to allow a full step prior to releasing a shot.

HOWEVER, in basketball at all levels (not just the NBA) for as long as I can remember, a player driving to the basket for a layup has been allowed to pick up his/her dribble and then take a full step before releasing the shot. Moriah did that all the time on some of her most memorable drives. Stewie did it in the first half of the Mississippi State blowout game, when her "step and a half" covered nearly the entire distance between the free throw line and the hoop. I have to believe that this is provided for somewhere in the rules.

If that is correct, and a step prior to a shot is allowed, then in the step-back jump shot case, moving one foot back is OK because it is not the pivot foot, and moving the second (pivot) foot back is OK because of the allowed single step. In that case, moving both feet back before shooting (even if the feet are not moved simultaneously) should be legal. And if that is not correct, then I don't see how the problem is cured by moving both feet back simultaneously, as the Big 12 supervisor of officials indicated.

Note that the newspaper article from the Kansas City Mercury that was previously cited in this thread refers to "one legal step". I realize they aren't the rule book, but I doubt if they fabricated the concept from whole cloth.

 

[SVCBeercats]

Note that the newspaper article from the Kansas City Mercury that was previously cited in this thread refers to "one legal step". I realize they aren't the rule book, but I doubt if they fabricated the concept from whole cloth.

No they did not fabricate the concept because it is the reality of the way today's game is called. Almost 60 years ago high school basketball was called by the book strictly at least in westcentral PA. Which goes to my point in another post, in today's game rules are ignored or the referees are lax. I have a friend who is 40+ years younger and referees basketball and football at the high school level. I mentioned my concerns about steps and other infractions gone uncalled. He agreed with me, they are ignored or the players are given tremendous latitude. He said initially he called the game by the rule book but was instructed to relax he strict interpretation of the rules. One aspect of refereeing has not changed, they still call fouls they anticipate but not actually see. My ref friend claims he does not do this. Of course he says so with a smile.

 

[chrissaran]

What about Olivia's fadeaway? Has anyone paid attention to her footwork when she pulls back?
Off-topic, but I would prefer if she developed a skyhook in preference to her current fade.

Only Kareem could shot the skyhook effectively, which is why you don't see other players shooting it.

 

[MD#12Fan]

Only Kareem could shot the skyhook effectively, which is why you don't see other players shooting it.

Darn, you must be a young buck. I’m 63. We all learned hook shots from early age. I agree, the sky hook was unique. Like a jump shot, a hook shot released at the top of his jump, high over his head. Liv won’t master that but she sure as heck can have a hook shot with either hand IMO.
In my day, guards had quick jump hooks inside. To me effective as heck. Big guards that can rebound can flip up the ball to the hoop a jump hook inside before the bigs have time to react. Old school!

 

[DefenseBB]

I agree with everything you are saying, Jay Bilas is not an idiot though. As far as him having an agenda that part is true. His agenda has always been for the benefit of the Student Athlete ( Men and Women ), against the NCAA and for the promotion of his main employer (ESPN) I'm not sure why a discussion about step back jumper would trigger you to attack Jay so viciously-unless you are against his agenda.

So you are not agreeing with everything he is saying...?