Step back jump shots are illegal? | The Boneyard

Step back jump shots are illegal?

Huh?

If you move both feet after picking up your dribble, that is traveling. But if you plant your back foot as a pivot foot and then step back with your other foot, that’s perfectly legal.
 
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oldude said:
Huh?

If you move both feet after picking up your dribble, that is traveling. But if you plant your back foot as a pivot foot and then step back with your other foot, that’s perfectly legal.
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Watch closely the players in most cases move both feet. They step back and then move the pivot foot back as well. Traveling in college basketball is becoming like the NBA, nonexistent. I have noticed many players, Paige included, hop with both feet before jumping to shoot most threes. Sometimes I wonder if the players are really better or the rules have become lax to nonexistent.
 
How does the "step and a half" rule apply in this situation? Aren't shooters permitted a so-called "gather step"? On a driving layup, that would certainly be the case. Is the rule different for a jump shot?

I notice the following quotation in the Kansas City Mercury article:

"Things get murky when trying to identify the “gather step,” or the moment when the player ends his dribble.
At that point, players are allowed two legal steps. Diarra took advantage in the above example, ending his dribble then using two steps — his right foot to step back and his left to come set — to create space and fire."

But the article also quotes the supervisor of officials for the Big 12 saying that he wants this step taken out of the game because (he says) it is indefensible, which does not seem like a good reason to outlaw something that is legal under the rules.
 
I’ve always thought that the “jump back” step“ is traveling, and should be illegal. It would have been called when I played college ball in the late 60’s. I understand that times and rules change. The 3 point arc was still 15 years away when I played. A change that revolutionized the game forever.

If the NCAA in their infinite wisdom chooses to legalize the jump back step, ok by me. If they choose to now recognize it as traveling, that’s fine too. I just enjoy the game. I’m not concerned about trying to legislate the rules. I’ll leave that the league officials.

We’ve all seen James Harden take 2 jump back steps (similar to a kangaroo) and it not be called. Disclaimer: I’m NOT calling Harden a kangaroo.

When you play, you know the rules! You know what you can and can’t do. You must play within the rules, and you’ll do whatever the refs allow you to. We all knew where the line was drawn back then. A jump step in any direction after you pick up your dribble is traveling.

Isn’t it ironic that you can be called for traveling for shuffling your feet before you begin a dribble drive or a post move, but you can take a jump back step without putting the ball on the floor, and it’s legal.
 
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JoePgh said:
How does the "step and a half" rule apply in this situation? Aren't shooters permitted a so-called "gather step"? On a driving layup, that would certainly be the case. Is the rule different for a jump shot?

I notice the following quotation in the Kansas City Mercury article:

"Things get murky when trying to identify the “gather step,” or the moment when the player ends his dribble.
At that point, players are allowed two legal steps. Diarra took advantage in the above example, ending his dribble then using two steps — his right foot to step back and his left to come set — to create space and fire."

But the article also quotes the supervisor of officials for the Big 12 saying that he wants this step taken out of the game because (he says) it is indefensible, which does not seem like a good reason to outlaw something that is legal under the rules.
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Many years ago I reffed and I understand it to mean you can pick up your pivot foot while in possession but before the pivot touches the floor again the ball must be out of your possession. Hence the Euro step is legal, the crow hop is legal, but step-step-shoot is not.
 
JoePgh said:
How does the "step and a half" rule apply in this situation? Aren't shooters permitted a so-called "gather step"? On a driving layup, that would certainly be the case. Is the rule different for a jump shot?

I notice the following quotation in the Kansas City Mercury article:

"Things get murky when trying to identify the “gather step,” or the moment when the player ends his dribble.
At that point, players are allowed two legal steps. Diarra took advantage in the above example, ending his dribble then using two steps — his right foot to step back and his left to come set — to create space and fire."

But the article also quotes the supervisor of officials for the Big 12 saying that he wants this step taken out of the game because (he says) it is indefensible, which does not seem like a good reason to outlaw something that is legal under the rules.
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I guess it depends on the era, and one’s interpretation of the rules. A charge or block call can still be called differently by various refs. How many times have we seen replays on TV, that was called a certain way, and it looked different to us?
 
Bronxjeff said:
What about Olivia's fadeaway? Has anyone paid attention to her footwork when she pulls back?
Off-topic, but I would prefer if she developed a skyhook in preference to her current fade.
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I would prefer she went straight up. At 6’5”, she won’t get very many of her shots blocked cleanly. I hate that move. Hard to follow your shot when you’re moving in the opposite direction when the shot is taken. Since she’s not shooting 100% from the field, she should follow her shots. That said, her fade-a-way is a legal move.

Its been said that it’s a poor mouse that only has one hole to run in to. Same thing for a post player. Every post player needs 3-4 moves (from either side of the rim) that they can employ. If you only have 1 move, and the defensive player is successful in taking it away from you, then what do you do? :eek:

ONO needs to be extremely cognizant of not committing cheap and unnecessary fouls in the Baylor game, especially in the first half. UConn cannot afford for her to be on the bench in the first half with foul trouble. UConn is a completely different team when she's on the floor.

Former Dodger Manager Thomas Charles Lasorda (Tommy) always said: "You can't win a pennant in April, but you can lose one". Meaning that a poor start to begin the season can put you so far behind the leader that first month, you can never catch up.

The same can be said about basketball games. You can lose a game in the first or second quarter if the other team out scores you 10 points, and you play them even the rest of the game. I look at all D1 scores everyday. Sometimes you can look at the quarter scores and see were a team lost the game. Sometimes it happened in a single quarter.

In the example below, Missouri lost this game in the 2nd quarter, even though they out scored Arkansas in the 2nd half and lost by 3.

1609798227320.png


If ONO is on the bench for an appreciable amount of time in the first half, the same thing can happen to them. UConn may dig itself a hole in the first half they can't get out of, as Missouri did here. ONO (and Paige) MUST stay on the floor for UConn to win! UConn can't go 4-5 minutes without scoring either. They can't go cold. They either pull away from Baylor and open up a double digit lead, or keep it close and win it it in the last 5-7 minutes.
 
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And yet players are never called for carrying or palming the ball. Very hard to actually see players dribbling anymore. But hey, the refs seem to focus on specific things year in and year out. This year it appears to be traveling.
 
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I'm surprised it actually took this long. The step back jumper has been around the WBB for a while now. Kristi Tolliver used a stepback to send the 2006 Championship game into OT. I remember it clearly because both my daughters were in the gym the next day practicing that shot. While there might be debate about the legality of the move (1.5 steps vs 2 steps vs 2+) what is clear is that the move is indefensible. Tolliver's shot for example was over 6'7" Alison Bales and KLS has hit that shot over Brianna Turner of ND. All the UCONN players that have trained with Kobe (KLS, Napheesa, and Azzi) have already added it to their arsenal. Other UCONN players that have not trained with Kobe (Saylor and Caroline) have learned it elsewhere and routinely use it as part of their games. I'm fairly sure the players will adjust to what ever rule comes their way, but I will be saddened if the stepback is taken out of the women's game.
 
HuskeyinSC said:
Many years ago I reffed and I understand it to mean you can pick up your pivot foot while in possession but before the pivot touches the floor again the ball must be out of your possession. Hence the Euro step is legal, the crow hop is legal, but step-step-shoot is not.
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Fact. Refs are quicker to call steps on a woman than a man. It seems any shot fake leads to a whistle.
 
ucbart said:
I am so happy about this. The NBA lets players travel constantly and it's caused basketball at every level to suffer. Like, in real basketball rules, James Harden would be called for a travel almost every time he touches the ball.
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You get 3 steps after you pick up your dribble in the NBA. :D
 
ucbart said:
I am so happy about this. The NBA lets players travel constantly and it's caused basketball at every level to suffer. Like, in real basketball rules, James Harden would be called for a travel almost every time he touches the ball.
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Why though? The James Harden's move is legal, based on the rule.
 
CocoHusky said:
I'm surprised it actually took this long. The step back jumper has been around the WBB for a while now. Kristi Tolliver used a stepback to send the 2006 Championship game into OT. I remember it clearly because both my daughters were in the gym the next day practicing that shot. While there might be debate about the legality of the move (1.5 steps vs 2 steps vs 2+) what is clear is that the move is indefensible. Tolliver's shot for example was over 6'7" Alison Bales and KLS has hit that shot over Brianna Turner of ND. All the UCONN players that have trained with Kobe (KLS, Napheesa, and Azzi) have already added it to their arsenal. Other UCONN players that have not trained with Kobe (Saylor and Caroline) have learned it elsewhere and routinely use it as part of their games. I'm fairly sure the players will adjust to what ever rule comes their way, but I will be saddened if the stepback is taken out of the women's game.
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Azzi and Paige's jump shots are based on Steff Curry. As a matter of fact I saw a post from Azzi that she and her dad worked for two hours to get Steff's foot work right.

I just watched Kemba's step back against Pitt (actually a hop back) and I think his hop is legal.

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Bronxjeff said:
What about Olivia's fadeaway? Has anyone paid attention to her footwork when she pulls back?
Off-topic, but I would prefer if she developed a skyhook in preference to her current fade.
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the fade away is a legal move because its a pivot and half a step away. The pivot foot is up in the air while the shot is taken.
 
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Bilas is an idiot and often posts incorrect info to match his agenda. Reports are that refs have been instructed to watch step back jumpers more closely for violations. It all depends on where your feet are when you actually gather the ball with your hands. Some are perfectly legal. Some are clearly illegal. I have literally seen hundreds of step back jumpers allowed this year in college games.

No doubt some of the more incompetent refs are unable to differentiate between a legal move and an illegal one, and will simply whistle all of them. But most will not.
 
stamfordhusky said:
Bilas is an idiot and often posts incorrect info to match his agenda. Reports are that refs have been instructed to watch step back jumpers more closely for violations. It all depends on where your feet are when you actually gather the ball with your hands. Some are perfectly legal. Some are clearly illegal. I have literally seen hundreds of step back jumpers allowed this year in college games.

No doubt some of the more incompetent refs are unable to differentiate between a legal move and an illegal one, and will simply whistle all of them. But most will not.
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I agree with everything you are saying, Jay Bilas is not an idiot though. As far as him having an agenda that part is true. His agenda has always been for the benefit of the Student Athlete ( Men and Women ), against the NCAA and for the promotion of his main employer (ESPN) I'm not sure why a discussion about step back jumper would trigger you to attack Jay so viciously-unless you are against his agenda.
 
JoePgh said:
How does the "step and a half" rule apply in this situation? Aren't shooters permitted a so-called "gather step"? On a driving layup, that would certainly be the case. Is the rule different for a jump shot?
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To which "step and a half" rule are you referring? Where is the "gather step" in the NCAA rules? I don't see it in the NCAA Women's Basketball rules. See NCAA Publications - 2019-20 and 2020-21 NCAA Women's Basketball Rules and Interpretations (electronic versions updated Sept. 1, 2020)
See download options check "Download PDF Free."
Click on DOWNLOAD NOW.
Go to page 80 for traveling rules.
Which rules refers to "step and a half" and "gather step" or are these rules Homeric fan rules.
 
Now that they've started to look at the step back jumper, how about palming the ball? I love Paige and IMO she is clearly the best young PG in WCBB and will make a great Olympian. However, she is as guilty as many others in turning that ball over with her dribble. Like I said she's hardly alone in this. 80-85% of players in BB do it. Refs should start calling this in grammar schools and coaches and trainers should start teaching kids early how to dribble without palming.
 
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ucbart said:
I am so happy about this. The NBA lets players travel constantly and it's caused basketball at every level to suffer. Like, in real basketball rules, James Harden would be called for a travel almost every time he touches the ball.
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ucbart, This topic is one of the major reasons I can't watch the NBA anymore. There are other reasons: it appears to me that defense has been outlawed. Enough this was about our game WCBB, nuff said.
 
JordyG said:
Now that they've started to look at the step back jumper, how about palming the ball? I love Paige and IMO she is clearly the best young PG in WCBB and will make a great Olympian. However, she is as guilty as many others in turning that ball over with her dribble. Like I said she's hardly alone in this. 80-85% of players in BB do it. Refs should start calling this in grammar schools and coaches and trainers should start teaching kids early how to dribble without palming.
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Jordy you’re opening up a can of worms that deserves its own thread. I agree with your take. Most kids that begin to play the game learn to handle the ball by palming it because their hands are so small.

I was in attendance for lots of Laker games during the “show time” era at the Forum. Magic Johnson would constantly palm the ball. It was NEVER called. :eek:
 
Carnac said:
Jordy you’re opening up a can of worms that deserves its own thread. I agree with your take. Most kids that begin to play the game learn to handle the ball by palming it because their hands are so small.

I was in attendance for lots of Laker games during the “show time” era at the Forum. Magic Johnson would constantly palm the ball. It was NEVER called. :eek:
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Not to stray too much further off topic but the NCAA had a pretty good comprise regarding palming the ball circa 2010-11. The comprise was you can stand out in the open court and palm all day but the second you try to get by a defender by palming the ball it was called. Palming gives the offensive player way too much of an advantage IMO-says this defensive bigot.
 
Gotta agree, many players do travel on the step back, it is tough to do properly. I'm more interested in the total demise of the "palming', "carrying" or "turning it over" on the dribble. Paige has a great handle, but geesh, much of her dribbling involves wrapping her hands around the ball, and "carrying" it, as we used to say. The men's professional and college game would be drastically different if the rules were enforced as written. If you want to see pure ball handling magic view old Bob Cousy or Pete Maravich videos.
 
stamfordhusky said:
Bilas is an idiot and often posts incorrect info to match his agenda. Reports are that refs have been instructed to watch step back jumpers more closely for violations. It all depends on where your feet are when you actually gather the ball with your hands. Some are perfectly legal. Some are clearly illegal. I have literally seen hundreds of step back jumpers allowed this year in college games.

No doubt some of the more incompetent refs are unable to differentiate between a legal move and an illegal one, and will simply whistle all of them. But most will not.
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Thanks for sharing. I cant stand Bilas btw.....he comes off as so condescending to me.

In regards to the traveling rule, I think refs should call it tighter. If a player travels, then it's a turnover. Plain and simple. Whether it's someone shuffling feet before a ball fake, stepping back with both feet or taking a bunny hop before a shot to get in rhythm like Kia Nurse and KLS used to do. Calling players on it will force them to change bad habits and improve.
 
CocoHusky said:
Not to stray too much further off topic but the NCAA had a pretty good comprise regarding palming the ball circa 2010-11. The comprise was you can stand out in the open court and palm all day but the second you try to get by a defender by palming the ball it was called. Palming gives the offensive player way too much of an advantage IMO-says this defensive bigot.
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So many palm the ball when they do a cross over that it's never called. Some do it on their in/out dribble as well.
 
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