Star Wars VIII [Spoilers] | The Boneyard

Star Wars VIII [Spoilers]

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@tzznandrew

I had no problem with the way they killed off Snoke. Kinda enjoyed it actually. Did it make Snoke look stupid and small? Yup. But the First Order is a stupid and small version of the Empire. Not every trilogy can have the most badasserous empire of all time.
 
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Spartacus said:
@tzznandrew

I had no problem with the way they killed off Snoke. Kinda enjoyed it actually. Did it make Snoke look stupid and small? Yup. But the First Order is a stupid and small version of the Empire. Not every trilogy can have the most badasserous empire of all time.
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Sure. I'm very willing to buy that. Except what he had just done to Rey was among the most powerful things we've seen one force user do to another. You know, if you want to do that maybe make him weaker. Maybe make the guards do most of the work. Or, have Luke there, or something.

I also didn't like the Canto Bight scenes. They were pretty blah except for the last moment which was awesome and almost justified the time we spent there.
 
tzznandrew said:
Sure. I'm very willing to buy that. Except what he had just done to Rey was among the most powerful things we've seen one force user do to another. You know, if you want to do that maybe make him weaker. Maybe make the guards do most of the work. Or, have Luke there, or something.

I also didn't like the Canto Bight scenes. They were pretty blah except for the last moment which was awesome and almost justified the time we spent there.
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Rey was an untrained pup thrown around like a rag doll. What's the big deal there? Yoda was moving star ships around with the force back in Empire.

Of course, I woulda preferred Luke to waltz in at that point too, but I enjoyed Rey and Ren fighting together.

And I cannot emphasize enough how Fisher's death threw a monkey wrench in the plot. If seems obvious now she was supposed to confront Ren in the final episode.
 
Spartacus said:
Rey was an untrained pup thrown around like a rag doll. What's the big deal there? Yoda was moving star ships around with the force back in Empire.

Of course, I woulda preferred Luke to waltz in at that point too, but I enjoyed Rey and Ren fighting together.

And I cannot emphasize enough how Fisher's death threw a monkey wrench in the plot. If seems obvious now she was supposed to confront Ren in the final episode.
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I mean, she resisted Kylo, beat him in a lightsaber match, etc. She wasn't nothing.

The nerd-hate on Twitter is too much. They hate it because it did something different. To me, they were just too cavalier in throwing away the mysteries and concerns of the first movie.

Anakin/Luke's old lightsaber? Tossed aside and then ripped apart. Rey's parents? Nobody. Supreme Leader Snoke's background? Unimportant. Captain Phasma comes back? Unceremoniously kill her again.

It seemed like Rian Johnson just took the position that the first movie was a waste and so there's minimal payoff to any of these. And, you know, I laughed about the lightsaber tossing. I'm cool with her parents being drunk gamblers (Del Toro?). But to essentially toss all of it aside bothered me.

And yea, I don't know how they deal with Fisher's death given that she survived this movie. I almost feel they should have re-jiggered it to have her die and Luke survive.

But it is cool that there's barely any real sense of where 9 will go. Small resistance, First Order powerful but with someone unstable running it. Rey vs. Kylo. It can be really cool.
 
tzznandrew said:
I mean, she resisted Kylo, beat him in a lightsaber match, etc. She wasn't nothing.

The nerd-hate on Twitter is too much. They hate it because it did something different. To me, they were just too cavalier in throwing away the mysteries and concerns of the first movie.

Anakin/Luke's old lightsaber? Tossed aside and then ripped apart. Rey's parents? Nobody. Supreme Leader Snoke's background? Unimportant. Captain Phasma comes back? Unceremoniously kill her again.

It seemed like Rian Johnson just took the position that the first movie was a waste and so there's minimal payoff to any of these. And, you know, I laughed about the lightsaber tossing. I'm cool with her parents being drunk gamblers (Del Toro?). But to essentially toss all of it aside bothered me.

And yea, I don't know how they deal with Fisher's death given that she survived this movie. I almost feel they should have re-jiggered it to have her die and Luke survive.

But it is cool that there's barely any real sense of where 9 will go. Small resistance, First Order powerful but with someone unstable running it. Rey vs. Kylo. It can be really cool.
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The nerds hate it, huh? I am not on Twitter so I missed that.

Honestly, all the stuff you are saying treated the first movie like trash are the bits I liked the most. Except for Luke dying. That irritated me, but didn't surprise me. I get that the series has to move on . . . I am just not happy about it.

P.s. I coulda done without the nerdy little Chinese girl. That storyline was useless.
 
These last two movies are suffocating under the weight of having to deal with too many characters. They are trying to both play to the nostalgia of the originals and tell a new story.

Leia didn't need to be in these movies, neither did Han. Like was the only one they got right. Wasn't in TFA, cause he didn't need to be. In TLJ, he did his obi-wan turn, made one last epic fight scene and skated to hologram world.

Snoke? OK, whatever. Ren needed a master but, why is anyone scared of Ren? Hard to live up to Vader but there really should be someone more competent running the First Order.

I liked the movie, it was an original story, unlike TFA.
 
.-.
I can deal with any of the supposed issues in the film (Snoke, Rey's parents, Canto Bight) but the Leia Mary Poppins-ing through space was just plain awful. There were so many other ways to fake her death to the audience and have her injured for half the movie without that garbage.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I really liked when Laura Dern hypersped (?) through Snoke's ship at the end. That was an amazing visual.
 
The Reddit r/starwars is a mess over this movie. People either love it or hate it. I have swung both ways since watching it.

During the movie I was totally in for the ride. Didn't understand how there could be any hate. It was epic. It was unexpected. The opening sequence was awesome. Leia was a BAMF. It had PUPPET YODA! That scene where Holdo turns the ship in to a light speed missile was breath taking. The entire theater was silent. It had the best cinematography of any of the films.

They killed Snoke??? They killed Snoke! I have been waiting for something like this to happen in one of these movies. That moment when you think Kylo has been saved only to realize that he was just doing it as a power grab, so powerful. That whole scene was mesmerizing. One of the greatest Star Wars scenes ever filmed.

Then I thought about the plot holes. Yeah there are plot holes. Kind of a bummer (btw I could live with waiting 3 years for these movies if it meant a cleaner story). Then I thought about the whole Finn & Rose story line, and how it was pointless. Why did they bring back Phasma for such a crappy death? Did we really just watch the slowest chase movie in cinema history?

Then I thought about the implications for the entire franchise. This really hammers home one aspect of the TFA that I didn't care for - Even though Luke, Han and Leia saved the galaxy in the ROTJ, they didn't end up as happy people. The Galaxy wasn't really saved. Han and Luke abandoned everyone. Did Luke really try to kill Ben Solo in cold blood? Is that something Luke Skywalker would do? If Rey isn't a Skywalker (which I was actually hoping she wasn't) does that mean that Luke was the LAST Skywalker. Is that the end of the Skywalker story and lineage? Luke just evaporating into nothing. It really asks that you take whatever you believe about our heroes and throw it out the window.

I wasn't that upset with how Luke was portrayed as some people were. In the original trilogy he was impatient, whiny, and rash. I guess he never really grew up. One failure and he was willing to throw it all way. I don't think that is completely out of character. But would he really try to kill his nephew as he slept? Hard pill to swallow.

Why were all these questions asked in The Force Awakened and then dumped? Who is Snoke? Where did the Knights of Ren go? Rey's parents are really nobodies? Why did Luke leave a map to find himself if he didn't want to be found? Did JJ and Rian talk about any of this??

But you know I think I am back to liking this movie. People are bi***ing about how Luke failed, but didn't Yoda do the same thing? He failed and went off to live as a hermit. When Luke found him he was kind of a too. Do we really need to know that much about Snoke? When we only had the OT we didn't really know who the Emperor was and it was actually kind of better that way. Sometimes mysteries are more fun.

If there are issues with this trilogy, and yes there are issues, I still think a lot of them stem from how JJ set everything up. The first movie ending with Rey finding Luke really pigeon holed where Rain had to start his movie. I would have liked a little more time to have passed. To make the events seem more believable, but it is what it is.

Rian took what he was given and flipped it on it's head. The movie took the unexpected turns that we needed, and it was exhilarating. It was time for this franchise to do something new. It was not a perfect film, but it was good. People need to let the past die. Our culture is so focused on nostalgia lately and that needs to end.

Finally, maybe those questions posed in the TFA are still to be answered. Maybe we haven't heard the last of Snoke. If Luke was able to force project himself is it possible Snoke was doing the same thing. People have pointed out that in the same way Luke looked like a younger version of himself when he force projected, Snoke also looked younger than he did in TFA. Maybe we will find out who he really was. Maybe we will get to know more about how and why Ben Solo was being pulled to the dark side. Hopefully Rian had the foresight to not just throw away these story lines, but set up something even more surprising for the final film. The more I think about it the more questions I have and I cant wait to see what they have up their sleeve for the final movie.

It's going to be a monumental task for JJ. He has a lot of questions to answer, and now he has to deal with Carrie Fisher's passing. They have admitted she was going to play a major role in the final film, and it would make sense considering Han and Luke have had their moment in the spot light. Its really unfortunate that we lost her. It is not going to be easy. With ROTJ all they had to do is kill Vader and the Empreror to wrap up the story. It was easy. With this trilogy I have no idea where it is going and that is very exciting. It feels like they are on the precipice of success or complete failure, and now we will wait to see if JJ can stick the landing.
 
Penfield said:
The Reddit r/starwars is a mess over this movie. People either love it or hate it. I have swung both ways since watching it.

During the movie I was totally in for the ride. Didn't understand how there could be any hate. It was epic. It was unexpected. The opening sequence was awesome. Leia was a BAMF. It had PUPPET YODA! That scene where Holdo turns the ship in to a light speed missile was breath taking. The entire theater was silent. It had the best cinematography of any of the films.

They killed Snoke??? They killed Snoke! I have been waiting for something like this to happen in one of these movies. That moment when you think Kylo has been saved only to realize that he was just doing it as a power grab, so powerful. That whole scene was mesmerizing. One of the greatest Star Wars scenes ever filmed.

Then I thought about the plot holes. Yeah there are plot holes. Kind of a bummer (btw I could live with waiting 3 years for these movies if it meant a cleaner story). Then I thought about the whole Finn & Rose story line, and how it was pointless. Why did they bring back Phasma for such a crappy death? Did we really just watch the slowest chase movie in cinema history?

Then I thought about the implications for the entire franchise. This really hammers home one aspect of the TFA that I didn't care for - Even though Luke, Han and Leia saved the galaxy in the ROTJ, they didn't end up as happy people. The Galaxy wasn't really saved. Han and Luke abandoned everyone. Did Luke really try to kill Ben Solo in cold blood? Is that something Luke Skywalker would do? If Rey isn't a Skywalker (which I was actually hoping she wasn't) does that mean that Luke was the LAST Skywalker. Is that the end of the Skywalker story and lineage? Luke just evaporating into nothing. It really asks that you take whatever you believe about our heroes and throw it out the window.

I wasn't that upset with how Luke was portrayed as some people were. In the original trilogy he was impatient, whiny, and rash. I guess he never really grew up. One failure and he was willing to throw it all way. I don't think that is completely out of character. But would he really try to kill his nephew as he slept? Hard pill to swallow.

Why were all these questions asked in The Force Awakened and then dumped? Who is Snoke? Where did the Knights of Ren go? Rey's parents are really nobodies? Why did Luke leave a map to find himself if he didn't want to be found? Did JJ and Rian talk about any of this??

But you know I think I am back to liking this movie. People are bi***ing about how Luke failed, but didn't Yoda do the same thing? He failed and went off to live as a hermit. When Luke found him he was kind of a too. Do we really need to know that much about Snoke? When we only had the OT we didn't really know who the Emperor was and it was actually kind of better that way. Sometimes mysteries are more fun.

If there are issues with this trilogy, and yes there are issues, I still think a lot of them stem from how JJ set everything up. The first movie ending with Rey finding Luke really pigeon holed where Rain had to start his movie. I would have liked a little more time to have passed. To make the events seem more believable, but it is what it is.

Rian took what he was given and flipped it on it's head. The movie took the unexpected turns that we needed, and it was exhilarating. It was time for this franchise to do something new. It was not a perfect film, but it was good. People need to let the past die. Our culture is so focused on nostalgia lately and that needs to end.

Finally, maybe those questions posed in the TFA are still to be answered. Maybe we haven't heard the last of Snoke. If Luke was able to force project himself is it possible Snoke was doing the same thing. People have pointed out that in the same way Luke looked like a younger version of himself when he force projected, Snoke also looked younger than he did in TFA. Maybe we will find out who he really was. Maybe we will get to know more about how and why Ben Solo was being pulled to the dark side. Hopefully Rian had the foresight to not just throw away these story lines, but set up something even more surprising for the final film. The more I think about it the more questions I have and I cant wait to see what they have up their sleeve for the final movie.

It's going to be a monumental task for JJ. He has a lot of questions to answer, and now he has to deal with Carrie Fisher's passing. They have admitted she was going to play a major role in the final film, and it would make sense considering Han and Luke have had their moment in the spot light. Its really unfortunate that we lost her. It is not going to be easy. With ROTJ all they had to do is kill Vader and the Empreror to wrap up the story. It was easy. With this trilogy I have no idea where it is going and that is very exciting. It feels like they are on the precipice of success or complete failure, and now we will wait to see if JJ can stick the landing.
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Holy Carl Spackler essay Batman! Good stuff, but can we break it up into a few posts next time? thx.
 
"I know what you're gonna say. I changed my hair."

When I heard that line my initial reaction was Carrie Fisher wrote that. Rian confirmed it yesterday. Some people hated it, but I thought it was perfect for the actress. We won't get the resolution we want for Leia's story, but I think this movie was a fitting send off for her.
 
Outer space Leia is going to live forever as some sort of internet meme. What an absolutely terrible scene. The space chase was like an intergalactic version of the OJ Simpson white Bronco chase, only the OJ chase had more drama because you thought it might end with shots being fired. And Luke Skywalker? The guy who wanted to join the rebellion even before he met Ben Kenobi, the guy who walked into Cloud City, Jabba's palace and the second Death Star in an effort to help his friends and family? That guy is now a cowardly old hermit who thought about killing his own nephew in his sleep. Talk about wrecking a character.

I like the idea of Ren killing Snoke to take over, that is what the Sith apprentices are supposed to do to their masters, but I just thought it was rushed. Put me solidly in the camp of those who needed to see more of this guy and to learn about him. The more I think on this movie, the less I am liking it. It's Star Wars, and there is still a chance to tighten some of this stuff up, but I feel like we are headed towards some sort of outer space Romeo and Juliet with Kylo and Rey. I hope to God I am wrong on that.
 
.-.
Penfield said:
"I know what you're gonna say. I changed my hair."

When I heard that line my initial reaction was Carrie Fisher wrote that. Rian confirmed it yesterday. Some people hated it, but I thought it was perfect for the actress. We won't get the resolution we want for Leia's story, but I think this movie was a fitting send off for her.
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That was a good line for her, but I wish she had been killed and Luke survived for the final movie. Hate to be mean about the deceased, but Leia had so much plastic surgery she couldn't convey any emotion with her face. It was tough to watch her scenes. Hammil was much better than she was in the flick.
 
Spartacus said:
That was a good line for her, but I wish she had been killed and Luke survived for the final movie. Hate to be mean about the deceased, but Leia had so much plastic surgery she couldn't convey any emotion with her face. It was tough to watch her scenes. Hammil was much better than she was in the flick.
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I don't think we have seen the last of Luke. I hope not anyway. I'd love to see him popping in and out of the force to offer wisdom and training to Rey, and to harass Kylo Ren. Hell, if I were a force spirit I'd definitely spend some time over Kylo's shoulder just to drive him even further off the rails.
 
traitor71 said:
I don't think we have seen the last of Luke. I hope not anyway. I'd love to see him popping in and out of the force to offer wisdom and training to Rey, and to harass Kylo Ren. Hell, if I were a force spirit I'd definitely spend some time over Kylo's shoulder just to drive him even further off the rails.
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Kylo could be harrassed by Darth Vader Ghost if the writers wanted. DVG is a known quantity---see the end of Return of the Jedi.
 
Spartacus said:
That was a good line for her, but I wish she had been killed and Luke survived for the final movie. Hate to be mean about the deceased, but Leia had so much plastic surgery she couldn't convey any emotion with her face. It was tough to watch her scenes. Hammil was much better than she was in the flick.
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It's actually kind of funny that of the 3 main characters, Hamill had by far the best acting in the new trilogy. Harrison just doesn't have the charisma he used to have. Carrie was still witty and strong, but yeah she didn't really seem up for the acting portion. She definitely fried herself over the years. Hamill was great in this movie. Maybe the best on screen role of his career.

I would suspect Luke to be in the final film as a force ghost for sure.
 
If I remember right Disney made Rian do some re-writes which caused TLJ to be delayed.
First impressions of his script that i remember hearing was that is was very good but very dark.
Some of the jokes seemed forced and probably had Disney’s fingerprints on them. I wouldn’t be surprised if the casino stuff was also forced on him - again seemed too long and unnecessary.
And why they didn’t simply remove Luke’s death after they already knew Fisher died is beyond me. After it’s revealed his whole Kylo scene was a Jedi mind trick why kill him off? No one would have expected him to just go to the heavens after that.
That being said I still really enjoyed a lot of it from an action standpoint.
The last hour of the movie was non stop edge of your seat stuff
Taking the kids next week and I’m sure they will just enjoy the hell out of it and not dissect it like we do
 
.-.
The entire series is not known for it's writing. The original cast famously trolled Lucas about it at the time.

It wowed everyone because space dogfight, laser swords, and Darth Vader.

The third trilogy is about the remnants of the Empire battling the remnants of the old resistance and a new generation of rebels.

It's never been Shakespeare.

That said, we can add Phasma to the Jar Jar Binks brings nothing to the table museum. Finn is on standby.
 
So I've been reading a lot of reviews and think pieces on this movie. The more I read the more I enjoy the subversion of expectations that came with the Luke/Rey/Kylo plot line. At the same time it has become very clear how badly written the rest of the plot really was. I still think a lot of these issues were created by the previous film, but a lot of it was on Johnson

I want to like this movie so bad for the risks it took, but its very hard.
 
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Penfield said:
So I've been reading a lot of reviews and think pieces on this movie. The more I read the more I enjoy the subversion of expectations that came with the Luke/Rey/Kylo plot line. At the same time it has become very clear how badly written the rest of the plot really was.

I want to like this movie so bad for the risks it took. but its very hard.
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The movie was great. Stop over thinking and embrace it.
 
I did not enjoy the movie but I will see it a second time this week to see if my opinion changes. I consider myself a pretty big Star Wars fan but I only stick to movies - don't read the books or EU stuff. I generally don't care about plot holes, I know what I'm getting into with Star Wars. I liked TFA but was frustrated that it was too much of a ANH remake. I really liked Rogue One.

First, at its core I think this was a mediocre movie. Stripping away everything Star Wars related and focusing on the plotting, writing, pacing, editing, new characters, etc. It was meh, it felt like most mediocre action movies of the last decade. It felt like I could get this movie in other franchises.

As for other stuff...

1) I didn't mind the new direction but thought it was poorly done. It could have been done more subtly and artistically, instead we were beaten over the head for 2.5 hours that "this isn't your old Star Wars". A lot of people think it's some deep, symbolic movie but to me it was in-your-face meta overkill. I got the point about 30 minutes in but the meta train wasn't stopping. Stick, meet dead horse. I did like a few pieces of it, namely killing Snoke and Kylo ditching the helmet (thank God).

2) I hated the timing of this new direction. Do it at the start of the current trilogy (Ep 7). Do it at the start of Rian Johnson's upcoming trilogy. For the love of God, don't do it in Ep 8, with one movie left in the Skywalker Saga, after the table has been set in TFA. Especially since Rian isn't involved with Ep 9. It's clear that LucasFilms did not have an outline for the entire trilogy and that's not a good look IMO.

3) I did not come up with this but it summarizes my feelings - it felt like too much of a mix between a movie about Star Wars and a Star Wars movie. It was a bold move but it didn't work in my view.

4) The comedy was really bad, to the point where I think it's my biggest issue with the movie. I know it isn't a big deal to most but it really took away any sense of immersion for me. I feel like every time there was tension building they ruined it with some stupid joke. The original trilogy, TFA and Rogue One had a strong comedic sense in terms of context. While it was cheesy, the humor was well-timed and fit into the scene or character. The prequels were terrible at this as was TLJ, it had too many moments where there was a joke for the sake of making a joke and many times it didn't fit the scene, character or was completely pointless. I felt like I was watching a Marvel movie. Every character had the same sense of humor too. It particularly bothered me with Luke, who's a broken old man ready to give up but still has time for a 2017-ish joke here and there. The opening scene was so stupid and the worst way to set the tone for what's supposed to be a pretty serious movie - a "can you hear me now?" joke that made the First Order seem like non-threatening buffoons. The best scene in the movie to me was Finn's near kamakazee stunt, probably because it was one of the few tense moments that wasn't ruined with an out of place joke. I see a lot of people calling this movie dark but I didn't get that vibe at all, mainly because of the humor and lack of a clear antagonist.

5) They need to trim the characters down. This could have been a great movie if nearly all of it focused on Luke, Rey and Kylo. Nearly everything with the First Order and Resistance was forgettable. Finn and Rose's subplot was the worst thing about Star Wars since the prequels.

6) Luke. I'm going back and forth with how they handled his ending but I simply can't believe that after what he went through with Darth Vader and the Emperor that he would have the thought, though fleeting, to murder his 14-year-old nephew in his sleep. Sorry, I'm just not buying that one.

7) I didn't particularly care about Snoke to begin with and I'm glad that he's gone. Another run of the mill villain...we don't need him. Rey's parents don't interest me much either, though I do think Kylo was lying to her. The only thing I really wanted more information on was Luke's original lightsaber - how did Maz get it and why did Rey have a connection to it.

8) For some reason I don't care about Rey yet. She's a boring character to me, I have no idea what her conflict or goal is.

9) Kylo Ren is the best part of this trilogy and what Anakin should have been in the prequels.

10) Episode 9 will play a big role in how I view TLJ in 5-10 years. You burned it all to the ground and didn't leave much left, and now we only have approximately two hours to wrap everything up in the Skywalker Saga. I'm not sold that this massive change will work in the context of this trilogy.

Ultimately, when you burn all of Star Wars lore to the ground and disregard much of what TFA set up and don't replace it with anything...well, there isn't much left to care about. The movie felt very empty. I don't care about any of the characters. The first thought in my head afterward was, "what was the point of that?". Anyone can take a classic franchise (Harry Potter, Indiana Jones, whatever) and deconstruct it. The question is, why would you want to? It felt like a little kid knocking over someone's sand castle and sticking out their chest. You can take things in a direction without nuking the past. I'm not seeing the point of it here and now, nor taking up an entire movie to do it. I don't think it's a smart move or a ground-breaking one or any of that. I think it's a bizarre shot at trying to do something different for the sake of being different and it fell very flat on its face.
 
.-.
I read an interesting take that this is the Millennial Star Wars, and it's a rebuke of the Boomers. Basically saying you guys thought you were going to save the world, but you really just left a terrible mess that we need to fix.
 
Penfield said:
I read an interesting take that this is the Millennial Star Wars, and it's a rebuke of the Boomers. Basically saying you guys thought you were going to save the world, but you really just left a terrible mess that we need to fix.
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Lol. That is an awful take, but it is so egocentric I applaud the author.
 
.-.
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