Star Wars VIII [Spoilers]

[UCFBfan]

That's interesting, thanks. I've been thinking about this some more. I haven't read any of the vast amount of Star Wars novels in existence. Just based on the movies. Darth Maul didn't hang around long enough to kill Darth Sidious, but he probably wasn't clever/cunning enough to pull it off anyway. What was Count Dooku? He had to have preceded Maul. Was he an apprentice? Seemed more like an ally/co-conspirator of Sidious. He seemed like a Jedi master that turned to the Dark Side, he was far more advanced in the Jedi arts than Maul (force lightning, much stronger telekinesis). Anyway Sidious was obviously grooming Anakin for a long time, eventually he goaded Anakin into killing Dooku. Way down the road Sidious tried to goad Luke into killing Vader. Vader served Sidious faithfully for decades. Doesn't really seem like Sidious's apprentices were on board w/ the killing their master thing, but he did pit potential apprentices against the existing one. Now granted Vader did toss Sidious down a pointlessly deep shaft eventually, but that was to save his son and redeem himself and become Anakin again, not to usurp Sidious' position and power. Just my thoughts anyway. That rule of two thing doesn't seem to be followed very faithfully in the movies. Kylo taking out Snoke is the first we actually see an apprentice usurp his master.

Another thing, once Sidious died and Anakin turned away from the Dark Side, and then died shortly after that, wouldn't the Sith have ceased to exist at that point? I know the filmmakers haven't given us answers, but how did the Sith come into existence again? I wish we had more background on Snoke.

If you ever watch The Clone Wars series they discuss in depth how there can only be one master and one apprentice. Dooku was Sidious's apprentice. However, Dooku took on apprentices on a few occasions and Sidious came down on him big time in the series. Overall Sidious knew that Anakin was the most powerful Jedi and was planning on having him join him and replace Dooku as his apprentice.

I also don't think Kylo Ren is considered a Sith. So the point on whether Snoke was one is an interesting one.

 

[huskypantz]

If you ever watch The Clone Wars series they discuss in depth how there can only be one master and one apprentice. Dooku was Sidious's apprentice. However, Dooku took on apprentices on a few occasions and Sidious came down on him big time in the series. Overall Sidious knew that Anakin was the most powerful Jedi and was planning on having him join him and replace Dooku as his apprentice.

I also don't think Kylo Ren is considered a Sith. So the point on whether Snoke was one is an interesting one.

Technically, Ren can pretty much just proclaim himself a Sith I guess - it's not like there's a bar exam to pass. Same goes for Rey. But along the lines of the original point, will the Jedi and Sith continue, or will it just be force-users? From a franchise/marketing standpoint, I don't think they let go of the Jedi moniker unless they have something else planned.

 

[UCFBfan]

Technically, Ren can pretty much just proclaim himself a Sith I guess - it's not like there's a bar exam to pass. Same goes for Rey. But along the lines of the original point, will the Jedi and Sith continue, or will it just be force-users? From a franchise/marketing standpoint, I don't think they let go of the Jedi moniker unless they have something else planned.

Agreed but TLJ really seemed to debunk the “legend” of the Jedi and focus on how it was more a religion then an actual thing. That basically being a force user meant you were either a Jedi or a Sith. Luke told Rey that that was not true. The force was something more then a religion.

I think how they handle this will be a truly defining moment in the Star Wars series. I got the impression that Kylo was trying to get Rey to join him in something new, not Sith vs Jedi, but just force users. I hope they do it well but as seen with TLJ, there will be a lot of people angry no matter what they do because it doesn’t fit their view of what should happen.

 

[SubbaBub]

I suspect future episodes, plural...Disney, will democratize the Force.

Unless Ep9 is packed to the gills, expect them to leave a thread for the next trilogy.

 

[junglehusky]

Having seen it a second time... I think this one will wind up better for repeat viewings than Rogue One or TFA.

I think Kylo Ren is a really, really interesting character. Like, after he kills Snoke, it's a legit question what choice he's going to make. For all the complaints about "Luke would never consider killing his nephew", I don't buy them. What he sensed in that flashback was that Ben was baby Hitler. You have to kill baby Hitler.

I'm going to get pilloried for this, but I thought the Canto Bight story needed to be expanded. It could have been better served if Finn and Rose had gone on a separate mission before the slow motion chase started. Their whole purpose is a MacGuffin anyway, so why not uncouple it from the hyperspace tracking deal? Maybe they are looking for an arms dealer to buy weapons and they run into DJ that way, then you can still have the whole disillusionment of profiting from selling to both sides. (I like the "Space Fenster" line.) Then, instead of infiltrating Snoke's capital ship, they would be tracked down on Canto Bight (or a rendez vous planet elsewhere) by Phasma and do battle there instead of being in the same place where Rey is.

I'm curious what the time gap between VII and IX will be after the very short gap from TFA to TLJ. It might be easier to handle Carrie Fisher's absence with a longer time gap and they could advance the story (give the resistance more allies, maybe some of the force sensitive kids on Canto Bight have already grown up). Given that alt-right fanboys are unhappy about the number of female characters in Ep. VIII, I really hope Abrams doubles down and adds a female Sith/ red lightsaber-wielding baddie, or maybe a Bobba Fett type, in Ep. IX. Looking forward to it.

 

[ZooCougar]

Without Canto Bight, you don’t get Space Horsies and Evil Space Capitalists and you lose a merchandising opportunity to boot.

 

[traitor71]

Having seen it a second time... I think this one will wind up better for repeat viewings than Rogue One or TFA.

I think Kylo Ren is a really, really interesting character. Like, after he kills Snoke, it's a legit question what choice he's going to make. For all the complaints about "Luke would never consider killing his nephew", I don't buy them. What he sensed in that flashback was that Ben was baby Hitler. You have to kill baby Hitler.

I'm going to get pilloried for this, but I thought the Canto Bight story needed to be expanded. It could have been better served if Finn and Rose had gone on a separate mission before the slow motion chase started. Their whole purpose is a MacGuffin anyway, so why not uncouple it from the hyperspace tracking deal? Maybe they are looking for an arms dealer to buy weapons and they run into DJ that way, then you can still have the whole disillusionment of profiting from selling to both sides. (I like the "Space Fenster" line.) Then, instead of infiltrating Snoke's capital ship, they would be tracked down on Canto Bight (or a rendez vous planet elsewhere) by Phasma and do battle there instead of being in the same place where Rey is.

I'm curious what the time gap between VII and IX will be after the very short gap from TFA to TLJ. It might be easier to handle Carrie Fisher's absence with a longer time gap and they could advance the story (give the resistance more allies, maybe some of the force sensitive kids on Canto Bight have already grown up). Given that alt-right fanboys are unhappy about the number of female characters in Ep. VIII, I really hope Abrams doubles down and adds a female Sith/ red lightsaber-wielding baddie, or maybe a Bobba Fett type, in Ep. IX. Looking forward to it.

Sigh. People just want interesting characters. A female sith, a male sith, a wookie sith, any sith could all be cool if they were allowed to be evil, as opposed to being an emo, temper tantrum throwing kid. And we just had a Boba Fett type, the idiot director of this film appears to have gotten rid of her though. This movie is like the Patriots losing to the Browns or some such. All you can do is shake your head, maybe even laugh a bit, get back on track and move on to the next one while expecting a better result.

 

[ZooCougar]

Sigh. People just want interesting characters. A female sith, a male sith, a wookie sith, any sith could all be cool if they were allowed to be evil, as opposed to being an emo, temper tantrum throwing kid. And we just had a Boba Fett type, the idiot director of this film appears to have gotten rid of her though. This movie is like the Patriots losing to the Browns or some such. All you can do is shake your head, maybe even laugh a bit, get back on track and move on to the next one while expecting a better result.

Kylo represents millenial anger towards boomers. That’s why he is interesting to some I guess.

 

[ZooCougar]

Sigh. People just want interesting characters. A female sith, a male sith, a wookie sith, any sith could all be cool if they were allowed to be evil, as opposed to being an emo, temper tantrum throwing kid. And we just had a Boba Fett type, the idiot director of this film appears to have gotten rid of her though. This movie is like the Patriots losing to the Browns or some such. All you can do is shake your head, maybe even laugh a bit, get back on track and move on to the next one while expecting a better result.

These two movies are just so hopelessly curated. Stop worrying about the racial ticket punching and just make a few badass characters that command respect on the screen. Kylo is a child with a temper. The explanation for his turn is his bad moral character not Luke turning on him. He’s boring and unappealing.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Maybe they are looking for an arms dealer to buy weapons and they run into DJ that way, then you can still have the whole disillusionment of profiting from selling to both sides.

Forgot about that. The whole intergalactic arms dealers/profiteers thing bothered me. The rebellion in it's current state is pretty rag tag, but the New Order seems to have plenty of economic/military might. It makes zero sense that they would be buying hardware from various private parties. They would either be manufacturing it themselves, or have exclusive government contractors.

Way OT, but where does the money come from to build nearly planet sized space stations, or endless numbers of large and small space craft? The Star Wars movie universe barely touches on economics. We've seen farmers, slave traders, junkers/scrappers, career politicians, maybe a few other things. Oh, bounty hunters and mercenaries. There must be some oppressive taxation in this galaxy!

 

[tzznandrew]

Forgot about that. The whole intergalactic arms dealers/profiteers thing bothered me. The rebellion in it's current state is pretty rag tag, but the New Order seems to have plenty of economic/military might. It makes zero sense that they would be buying hardware from various private parties. They would either be manufacturing it themselves, or have exclusive government contractors.

Way OT, but where does the money come from to build nearly planet sized space stations, or endless numbers of large and small space craft? The Star Wars movie universe barely touches on economics. We've seen farmers, slave traders, junkers/scrappers, career politicians, maybe a few other things. Oh, bounty hunters and mercenaries. There must be some oppressive taxation in this galaxy!

I think one problem of the new galaxy the films have created is that we don't actually know the scope of the Rebellion/First Order. My sense is that the they were a smallish rump-Empire that survived the war. They probably had to deal in black market materials, etc, for a good deal of their weapons under whatever treaties they had with the Republic, and the Republic has only just been destroyed, since there's no real gap between VII and VIII.

But this is my speculation, as a non-book reader. I shouldn't really have to speculate like that.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Though of prime age for original star wars movies I'm not a devoted fan, some movies I liked, some I didn't but no special feeling vs any other movies or franchise. My kids are now of prime age.
I thought the Force Awakens was great in that it did almost exactly what Creed did, revive a moribund franchise, yet still tell a franchise consistent story interweaving new and old characters.

The Last Jedi despite all I'm now reading about its break from conventions, to me was no different than the Empire Strikes back. I read no spoilers, but went in assuming the First Order has its strike back without leveling a death blow. I simply didn't see anything new happen*, I thought curmudgeon Luke was disappointing until the end & the previous breath of fresh air from the new characters was lacking. The kids liked it better than the Force Awakens which I found surprising, I was bored at times and never fully engrossed.

*the 3 surprises were ehh, 1. though Leia would die, 2. Luke 3. glad they didn't make Rey someone's daughter

 

[huskypantz]

Way OT, but where does the money come from to build nearly planet sized space stations, or endless numbers of large and small space craft? The Star Wars movie universe barely touches on economics. We've seen farmers, slave traders, junkers/scrappers, career politicians, maybe a few other things. Oh, bounty hunters and mercenaries. There must be some oppressive taxation in this galaxy!

That's not OT, the novels do a really good job delving into the economics of the empire and republic. Their multiverse is made up of the core worlds and outer rim worlds. In the legends novel, they also go the inner rim, but they're considered very unstable. In general, the empire "colonizes" various planets/systems, especially in the outer rim, and strips them of resources. They cannibalize these planets for natural resources and sometimes labor. Trade embargos are mentioned frequently as well. There is a lot of rich versus poor and political favoritism intertwined.

 

[junglehusky]

These two movies are just so hopelessly curated. Stop worrying about the racial ticket punching and just make a few badass characters that command respect on the screen. Kylo is a child with a temper. The explanation for his turn is his bad moral character not Luke turning on him. He’s boring and unappealing.

Going to have to disagree here. This is a character with real-world complexity. Clearly has ambition and motivation, both of which are used by his boss until he turns it against him. And his inner conflict is real enough that when Rey thinks she can turn him back from the path he's on, the audience believes it to - he's not predestined to be the Supreme Leader. I'm not saying where he wound up at the end of the film was unexpected - it isn't - but in the film the character's duality is played so well, it still hits the mark.

Certainly much more effective than either "You turned her against me / You have done that yourself" or Vader throwing the Emperor off a catwalk.

 

[ZooCougar]

Going to have to disagree here. This is a character with real-world complexity. Clearly has ambition and motivation, both of which are used by his boss until he turns it against him. And his inner conflict is real enough that when Rey thinks she can turn him back from the path he's on, the audience believes it to - he's not predestined to be the Supreme Leader. I'm not saying where he wound up at the end of the film was unexpected - it isn't - but in the film the character's duality is played so well, it still hits the mark.

Certainly much more effective than either "You turned her against me / You have done that yourself" or Vader throwing the Emperor off a catwalk.

I basically see a pretty pathetic person. I’m not sure the audience really sees what you are describing.

Vader was actually a cool character that had tons of gravitas. Kylo Ren has less gravitas than an episode Teen Mom on MTV. There isn’t much to compare.

 

[The Viking]

I saw this for a second time today - took the kids as they hadn't seen it prior.

It wasn't a perfect movie, but to me the Kylo/Ren/Snoke fight scene and the Kylo/Luke fight scene had so much intensity that for me it carried the movie through the parts I didn't like. And even the Yoda/Luke scene was really good.

I won't bother going over the negatives, they've all been discussed ad nauseum. But overall I was still entertained.

 

[SubbaBub]

I basically see a pretty pathetic person. I’m not sure the audience really sees what you are describing.

Vader was actually a cool character that had tons of gravitas. Kylo Ren has less gravitas than an episode Teen Mom on MTV. There isn’t much to compare.

This ^^^^. The prequels had the same problem. Both AS and KR, are portrayed as bratty douches, even in the Phantom Menace (though I still maintain that they cast him too young).

Vader was unlikable, feared so much that fans came to love that about the character. Ever other movie has tried to make the villain likeable or sympathetic.

Anikan should have been portrayed as a delinquent. A pure ends justify the means teen age street punk.

Kylo should be portrayed as an ambitious climber, scheming and plotting various capers to advance himself. A young Donald Trump if you will.

Instead, both are whiny brats that no one respects. I chalk that up to the series famously bad writing.

 

[tzznandrew]

Anikan should have been portrayed as a delinquent. A pure ends justify the means teen age street punk.

Kylo should be portrayed as an ambitious climber, scheming and plotting various capers to advance himself. A young Donald Trump if you will.

Instead, both are whiny brats that no one respects. I chalk that up to the series famously bad writing.

In each of these cases, I think you're wrong.

Why would the Jedi keep a delinquent? It makes no sense. The arc that: (1) the Jedi forbid actual human emotion, (2) Anakin had actual human emotion, (3) therefore, Anakin had to lie, hide, sneak around, etc., separating him from the Jedi and opening him to the Dark Side was actual a really smart path, just poorly executed. We should like Anakin, but we didn't because of poor acting, etc. Like, throw away Phantom Menace except Maul, make Anakin older, maybe Liam Neeson's younger padawan besides Obi Wan, and make the first two movies action/adventure plots (keeping and making less boring the separatist plots), and clean up the writing for RotS, and you have yourself a compelling, believable Vader whose redemption in Jedi packs a punch and continues to make sense why Luke doesn't like the Jedi in Last Jedi (they were corrupt and their practices anti-human).

As for Kylo, I find his character totally different than Anakin was drawn, infinitely more compelling than what we got. And I don't quite get the "no one respects" Kylo bit here. He's absolutely respected and feared, he's just conflicted. I don't know, I thought it was the best part of the whole movie--probably both. (And, to be clear, I ultimately enjoyed both.)

 

[tzznandrew]

Stop worrying about the racial ticket punching

I always find this line of thinking irritating. Like, your default is "white men" but that's a minority of the population, so it makes sense if you want to build a realistic world/universe for there to be greater representation. And the complaining about it--when the overrepresentation of white men in film stems from systematic historical issues--is even sillier.

Point being: make cool more badass characters is a reasonable position. Just cast mostly white men isn't. I'm not saying you're suggesting the second, but, as Junglehusky has noted, it is the position of a large online "fan" contingent.

 

[Deadrody]

So this is basically where I've come down. I like what Rian Johnson did. I like the big ideas in this movie even if he stumbled a bit in the execution.

I think the characters, acting, special effects, practical effects and attention to details in this trilogy have been great.

Attention to detail ? Are you high ? The world's slowest bombers with bombs that fall due to non-existent gravity, the Mary Poppins force ride through space, and entire plotline that involves leaving the ship to find a code breaker that ultimately fails, all caused by general purple hair keeping the plan to herself so dumb Finn and Po will make an attempt to save them that actually turns out to have CAUSED their failue ? Or how about the state of the rebellion at the end ? Do we have dozens or hundreds of armed soldiers manning the trenches and the weapons, or a dozen that can fit on the Falcon ?

Nevermind that they had 3 ships and could have light speeded right through the big bad ship - AT ANY TIME OF THEIR CHOOSING ?

THAT attention to detail ? Give me a break. I "liked" it in real time, but virtually every second since I like it exponentially less. The treatment of Luke was criminal. I get it "kill the past". I just wonder if I'll continue participating while they kill the past. Beyond which, took a look at Rian Johnson's resume on IMDB. WT holy F ? How has this guy earned the right to direct ONE star wars movie, let alone the laughable notion of his own trilogy, since abandoned, quite wisely.

 

[Deadrody]

I always find this line of thinking irritating. Like, your default is "white men" but that's a minority of the population, so it makes sense if you want to build a realistic world/universe for there to be greater representation. And the complaining about it--when the overrepresentation of white men in film stems from systematic historical issues--is even sillier.

Point being: make cool more badass characters is a reasonable position. Just cast mostly white men isn't. I'm not saying you're suggesting the second, but, as Junglehusky has noted, it is the position of a large online "fan" contingent.

And guess what ? I find your strawman depiction of the criticism, EQUALLY irritating. No, that is definitively NOT the position of a large "fan" contingent. And, nice of you to casually cast yourself as the one who decides who IS or ISN'T an actual "fan".

The real point is, it is patently clear that in the new world of Star Wars (and well beyond, actually) white men are either evil or incompetent. Well, except for the lazy deus ex machina, sort of / half redemption of Luke in the end to win the day, err buy some time for the ragtag rebels to escape.

I mean, it's partially true. Rian Johnson is indeed a white man. Not sure if his bungling of this franchise is evil or incompetent.

 

[Penfield]

Attention to detail ? Are you high ? The world's slowest bombers with bombs that fall due to non-existent gravity, the Mary Poppins force ride through space, and entire plotline that involves leaving the ship to find a code breaker that ultimately fails, all caused by general purple hair keeping the plan to herself so dumb Finn and Po will make an attempt to save them that actually turns out to have CAUSED their failue ? Nevermind that they had 3 ships and could have light speeded right through the big bad ship - AT ANY TIME OF THEIR CHOOSING ?

THAT attention to detail ? Give me a break. I "liked" it in real time, but virtually every second since I like it exponentially less. The treatment of Luke was criminal. I get it "kill the past". I wonder if I'll continue participating while they kill the past. Beyond which, took a look at Rian Johnson's resume on IMDB. WT holy F ? How has this guy earned the right to direct ONE star wars movie, let alone the laughable notion of his own trilogy, since abandoned, quite wisely.

Wow calm down buddy.

Attention to details as in how everything is designed. Every little detail of what we see on the screen seems to have been created by someone who is very passionate about what they do. For example, how they created the new Yoda puppet from the original ESB mold and even brought back the original painter to do all the little details.

You might disagree with Johnson's story choices but I don't think any of them were made due to a lack of thinking things through. All the failure in the story was included on purpose. You might not enjoy the fact that the heros failed but it was done intentionally to break them down before they redeemed themselves. Some of the character arcs may not have worked very well, but sometimes that is lost between writing, filming, and editing.

The bombers had internal gravity. Anything that falls in them would continue to move in the same direction once it entered space. I wouldnt have done it the same way, but if you need Star Wars to be scientifically accurate when it comes to things falling or exploding in space please avoid watching all of the other Star Wars movies.

How was Mary Poppins caused by a lack of attention to detail. Because you didn't like it?

Have you watched any of Rian Johnson's other films? He has made some pretty good ones. Looper might not have had the budget of TLJ but it wasn't an indie film either.

I noticed Ridley Scott came out and blasted Disney on their director choices. Do we want him making one instead? The guy made some great movies has made only one or two good ones in the last 10 years. Who would you have gone with?

 

[Penfield]

These two movies are just so hopelessly curated. Stop worrying about the racial ticket punching and just make a few badass characters that command respect on the screen

Rose's character was a Caucasian women in the concept art, so it seems to me they simply cast the woman they liked best.

Do you think the racial ticket punching in the phantom menace was better because they just applied the stereotypes to various alien species instead?

 

[Penfield]

How has this guy earned the right to direct ONE star wars movie, let alone the laughable notion of his own trilogy, since abandoned, quite wisely.

BTW where are you seeing that it was cancelled?

 

[ZooCougar]

Rose's character was a Caucasian women in the concept art, so it seems to me they simply cast the woman they liked best.

Do you think the racial ticket punching in the phantom menace was better because they just applied the stereotypes to various alien species instead?

I thought the Phantom Menace and the other two movies were hot garbage and they should retconned into oblivion.