Star Wars VIII [Spoilers]

[The Viking]

I saw this for a second time today - took the kids as they hadn't seen it prior.

It wasn't a perfect movie, but to me the Kylo/Ren/Snoke fight scene and the Kylo/Luke fight scene had so much intensity that for me it carried the movie through the parts I didn't like. And even the Yoda/Luke scene was really good.

I won't bother going over the negatives, they've all been discussed ad nauseum. But overall I was still entertained.

 

[SubbaBub]

I basically see a pretty pathetic person. I’m not sure the audience really sees what you are describing.

Vader was actually a cool character that had tons of gravitas. Kylo Ren has less gravitas than an episode Teen Mom on MTV. There isn’t much to compare.

This ^^^^. The prequels had the same problem. Both AS and KR, are portrayed as bratty douches, even in the Phantom Menace (though I still maintain that they cast him too young).

Vader was unlikable, feared so much that fans came to love that about the character. Ever other movie has tried to make the villain likeable or sympathetic.

Anikan should have been portrayed as a delinquent. A pure ends justify the means teen age street punk.

Kylo should be portrayed as an ambitious climber, scheming and plotting various capers to advance himself. A young Donald Trump if you will.

Instead, both are whiny brats that no one respects. I chalk that up to the series famously bad writing.

 

[tzznandrew]

Anikan should have been portrayed as a delinquent. A pure ends justify the means teen age street punk.

Kylo should be portrayed as an ambitious climber, scheming and plotting various capers to advance himself. A young Donald Trump if you will.

Instead, both are whiny brats that no one respects. I chalk that up to the series famously bad writing.

In each of these cases, I think you're wrong.

Why would the Jedi keep a delinquent? It makes no sense. The arc that: (1) the Jedi forbid actual human emotion, (2) Anakin had actual human emotion, (3) therefore, Anakin had to lie, hide, sneak around, etc., separating him from the Jedi and opening him to the Dark Side was actual a really smart path, just poorly executed. We should like Anakin, but we didn't because of poor acting, etc. Like, throw away Phantom Menace except Maul, make Anakin older, maybe Liam Neeson's younger padawan besides Obi Wan, and make the first two movies action/adventure plots (keeping and making less boring the separatist plots), and clean up the writing for RotS, and you have yourself a compelling, believable Vader whose redemption in Jedi packs a punch and continues to make sense why Luke doesn't like the Jedi in Last Jedi (they were corrupt and their practices anti-human).

As for Kylo, I find his character totally different than Anakin was drawn, infinitely more compelling than what we got. And I don't quite get the "no one respects" Kylo bit here. He's absolutely respected and feared, he's just conflicted. I don't know, I thought it was the best part of the whole movie--probably both. (And, to be clear, I ultimately enjoyed both.)

 

[tzznandrew]

Stop worrying about the racial ticket punching

I always find this line of thinking irritating. Like, your default is "white men" but that's a minority of the population, so it makes sense if you want to build a realistic world/universe for there to be greater representation. And the complaining about it--when the overrepresentation of white men in film stems from systematic historical issues--is even sillier.

Point being: make cool more badass characters is a reasonable position. Just cast mostly white men isn't. I'm not saying you're suggesting the second, but, as Junglehusky has noted, it is the position of a large online "fan" contingent.

 

[Deadrody]

So this is basically where I've come down. I like what Rian Johnson did. I like the big ideas in this movie even if he stumbled a bit in the execution.

I think the characters, acting, special effects, practical effects and attention to details in this trilogy have been great.

Attention to detail ? Are you high ? The world's slowest bombers with bombs that fall due to non-existent gravity, the Mary Poppins force ride through space, and entire plotline that involves leaving the ship to find a code breaker that ultimately fails, all caused by general purple hair keeping the plan to herself so dumb Finn and Po will make an attempt to save them that actually turns out to have CAUSED their failue ? Or how about the state of the rebellion at the end ? Do we have dozens or hundreds of armed soldiers manning the trenches and the weapons, or a dozen that can fit on the Falcon ?

Nevermind that they had 3 ships and could have light speeded right through the big bad ship - AT ANY TIME OF THEIR CHOOSING ?

THAT attention to detail ? Give me a break. I "liked" it in real time, but virtually every second since I like it exponentially less. The treatment of Luke was criminal. I get it "kill the past". I just wonder if I'll continue participating while they kill the past. Beyond which, took a look at Rian Johnson's resume on IMDB. WT holy F ? How has this guy earned the right to direct ONE star wars movie, let alone the laughable notion of his own trilogy, since abandoned, quite wisely.

 

[Deadrody]

I always find this line of thinking irritating. Like, your default is "white men" but that's a minority of the population, so it makes sense if you want to build a realistic world/universe for there to be greater representation. And the complaining about it--when the overrepresentation of white men in film stems from systematic historical issues--is even sillier.

Point being: make cool more badass characters is a reasonable position. Just cast mostly white men isn't. I'm not saying you're suggesting the second, but, as Junglehusky has noted, it is the position of a large online "fan" contingent.

And guess what ? I find your strawman depiction of the criticism, EQUALLY irritating. No, that is definitively NOT the position of a large "fan" contingent. And, nice of you to casually cast yourself as the one who decides who IS or ISN'T an actual "fan".

The real point is, it is patently clear that in the new world of Star Wars (and well beyond, actually) white men are either evil or incompetent. Well, except for the lazy deus ex machina, sort of / half redemption of Luke in the end to win the day, err buy some time for the ragtag rebels to escape.

I mean, it's partially true. Rian Johnson is indeed a white man. Not sure if his bungling of this franchise is evil or incompetent.

 

[Penfield]

Attention to detail ? Are you high ? The world's slowest bombers with bombs that fall due to non-existent gravity, the Mary Poppins force ride through space, and entire plotline that involves leaving the ship to find a code breaker that ultimately fails, all caused by general purple hair keeping the plan to herself so dumb Finn and Po will make an attempt to save them that actually turns out to have CAUSED their failue ? Nevermind that they had 3 ships and could have light speeded right through the big bad ship - AT ANY TIME OF THEIR CHOOSING ?

THAT attention to detail ? Give me a break. I "liked" it in real time, but virtually every second since I like it exponentially less. The treatment of Luke was criminal. I get it "kill the past". I wonder if I'll continue participating while they kill the past. Beyond which, took a look at Rian Johnson's resume on IMDB. WT holy F ? How has this guy earned the right to direct ONE star wars movie, let alone the laughable notion of his own trilogy, since abandoned, quite wisely.

Wow calm down buddy.

Attention to details as in how everything is designed. Every little detail of what we see on the screen seems to have been created by someone who is very passionate about what they do. For example, how they created the new Yoda puppet from the original ESB mold and even brought back the original painter to do all the little details.

You might disagree with Johnson's story choices but I don't think any of them were made due to a lack of thinking things through. All the failure in the story was included on purpose. You might not enjoy the fact that the heros failed but it was done intentionally to break them down before they redeemed themselves. Some of the character arcs may not have worked very well, but sometimes that is lost between writing, filming, and editing.

The bombers had internal gravity. Anything that falls in them would continue to move in the same direction once it entered space. I wouldnt have done it the same way, but if you need Star Wars to be scientifically accurate when it comes to things falling or exploding in space please avoid watching all of the other Star Wars movies.

How was Mary Poppins caused by a lack of attention to detail. Because you didn't like it?

Have you watched any of Rian Johnson's other films? He has made some pretty good ones. Looper might not have had the budget of TLJ but it wasn't an indie film either.

I noticed Ridley Scott came out and blasted Disney on their director choices. Do we want him making one instead? The guy made some great movies has made only one or two good ones in the last 10 years. Who would you have gone with?

 

[Penfield]

These two movies are just so hopelessly curated. Stop worrying about the racial ticket punching and just make a few badass characters that command respect on the screen

Rose's character was a Caucasian women in the concept art, so it seems to me they simply cast the woman they liked best.

Do you think the racial ticket punching in the phantom menace was better because they just applied the stereotypes to various alien species instead?

 

[Penfield]

How has this guy earned the right to direct ONE star wars movie, let alone the laughable notion of his own trilogy, since abandoned, quite wisely.

BTW where are you seeing that it was cancelled?

 

[ZooCougar]

Rose's character was a Caucasian women in the concept art, so it seems to me they simply cast the woman they liked best.

Do you think the racial ticket punching in the phantom menace was better because they just applied the stereotypes to various alien species instead?

I thought the Phantom Menace and the other two movies were hot garbage and they should retconned into oblivion.

 

[Palatine]

Back around 2001/2002, I was working at ILM and just outside the conference room where a number of meetings were held was a glass case with a three foot high Yoda inside. One day the Yoda was gone. So I asked if it was stolen. Nope, came the reply. They needed it for filming as something had happened to the Yoda they were using.

We tend to think that with these huge budgets and army of technicians that this stuff is all perfectly planned and anticipated, but sometimes you just grab a Yoda from the hall.

 

[tzznandrew]

And guess what ? I find your strawman depiction of the criticism, EQUALLY irritating. No, that is definitively NOT the position of a large "fan" contingent. And, nice of you to casually cast yourself as the one who decides who IS or ISN'T an actual "fan".

Sorry, be mad if you want, but I am not strawmanning a certain segment of the fans. The remainder of your post proves that. The online community that has made a big deal about race in this movie has mostly been white men mad that the heroes weren't white men.

In your post you make the claim that this movie suggests white men can only be villains. As if all the other movies leading up to this were null and void. Imagine a black teen watching Empire and watching Lando. Would you have criticized him for being upset that the only black man in the movies had betrayed his friends?

Regardless, your point is silly. If you watch the movie there are all sorts of white men in the resistance, they just aren't front and center. Boo hoo.

 

[tzznandrew]

Rose's character was a Caucasian women in the concept art, so it seems to me they simply cast the woman they liked best.

I know Zoo's a good guy from elsewhere. But there does seem to be an assumption many unintentionally make that white men and women earn their role white it's "racial box ticking" when non-white people get one. It's the same everywhere. My wife went to Brown after graduating in the Top 1% of her high school class, but she's non-white so she has spent--both in college and now in the work force--a decent amount of time dealing with people who assume she's there because she ticks some racial box.

I'll stop now, though. I didn't bring up the race issue in the films, but I know I'm the one imperiling the thread.

I still have only seen the movie once. I'd like to rectify that soon. I had the exact opposite reaction to Rody in that I left the theatre hating the film (and still the repetition of hope and Rose's on the nose statement to Finn at the end bother me), but it's grown on me in the interim. I feel like a repeat viewing will either reenforce my initial viewing, or, with softened edges already, bring me to appreciate it.

 

[whaler11]

You guys are nerds. I saw it today.

I liked Chewie. I’d like more R2D2.

Yoda is wicked smart.

I thought the fly boy and purple hair should have done it.

Rose sucks.

Luke’s island was pretty cool.

 

[iri10]

Also saw it today. Enjoyed it on the balance. They basically took a big sword to the franchise and cut through a lot of the old classic stuff that was (and is) great, but really was feeling more and more like shackles after all these years. What was left felt a bit frazzled in some ways, and very "refocused" in other ways. No idea where the 3rd movie is going to go, and I like that feeling.

edit: and I like the actress that plays Rose, at the least. She's got to rank among the most endearingly normal human beings ever to play a role in a Star Wars flick:


"Hey I’m kellymarietran aka Rose Tico in TheLastJedi (it’s okay if you don’t know who I am — nobody does! ) "

 

[whaler11]

Was there some significance to the planet they retreat to being made of salt?

I’ve never seen I-III and haven’t watched IV-VI in decades.

 

[Penfield]

Was there some significance to the planet they retreat to being made of salt?

I’ve never seen I-III and haven’t watched IV-VI in decades.

No significance. It was made created for this movie and like anything else in Star Wars they have tie in media to explain the backstory

 

[ZooCougar]

Was there some significance to the planet they retreat to being made of salt?

I’ve never seen I-III and haven’t watched IV-VI in decades.

I think it was part of a botched marketing strategy for Star Wars themed red velvet cakes.

 

[ZooCougar]

You guys are nerds. I saw it today.

I liked Chewie. I’d like more R2D2.

Yoda is wicked smart.

I thought the fly boy and purple hair should have done it.

Rose sucks.

Luke’s island was pretty cool.

Rose sucks out loud. I mean sthu already and let Finn escape. At least he was using his brain.

Poe should of been shot between the eyes for the debacle he caused.

You can’t go wrong with more Chewie.

 

[ZooCougar]

Oh and what was with Justin Theroux in the Casino? Justin Theroux could have saved the movie, but instead we got stuttering Star Wars Fenster.

This movie was like a bit of amateur fan fiction gone awry.

 

[whaler11]

Oh and what was with Justin Theroux in the Casino? Justin Theroux could have saved the movie, but instead we got stuttering Star Wars Fenster.

This movie was like a bit of amateur fan fiction gone awry.

Kevin Garvey?

I had three beers at lunch behorehand and fell asleep for 20-25 minutes. I think my cut was better than the release because I slept through the casino trip.

 

[Penfield]

 

[HuskyHawk]

These two movies are just so hopelessly curated. Stop worrying about the racial ticket punching and just make a few badass characters that command respect on the screen. Kylo is a child with a temper. The explanation for his turn is his bad moral character not Luke turning on him. He’s boring and unappealing.

The casting for Kylo is part of the problem. There is no way that any man that gawky and ugly could be the child of Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher. Ben Solo would work so much better as a dashing, handsome, charming guy...who goes bad.

 

[HuskyHawk]

You guys are nerds. I saw it today.

I liked Chewie. I’d like more R2D2.

Yoda is wicked smart.

I thought the fly boy and purple hair should have done it.

Rose sucks.

Luke’s island was pretty cool.

Luke’s Island is very cool in real life too. Skellig Michael just of the coast of County Kerry, Ireland. There was a monastery there at one time. The bee hive huts and steps were all real. I think the little porg bird things were probably designed after the puffins that live on the island.

 

[CL82]

I didn't mind TLJ. It has it's flaws but it is watchable and the lack of resolution is typical of a middle movie. A few random thoughts:

I think these movies are kind of hybrid between a continuation and a remake. Rey is a kid on a desert planet who unbeknownst to her is a force sensitive who is destined to be the savior of the universe. The need to blow up a death star, star killer, dreadnought, etc. Rebels/Resistance facing overwhelming odds of superior military or the Empire/First Order. The are take refuge on an icy world where they are under siege. Student becomes incarnate evil, etc. Sometimes it easier to accept the new movies as alternative universe rather than a continued story arc.

I agree the whole Luke thought about considering killing Ben isn't as out of character as some think. It was just handled badly. It had a whole creepy uncle vibe with Luke staring at his sleeping nephew and then whipping out his saber. Remember that Yoda always saw that Luke was too rash and inclined toward darkside, looking for easy solutions, etc. That Luke might consider the quick and easy way to avoid a galactic war that could undue all he fought for is entirely in character. That it ever would get to him standing over a sleeping kid with a light saber though, just feels wrong. A better version would be for Luke's thoughts to have flashed to the possibility of it for only an instant and for Ben to have sensed it and interpreted it as a threat and knocked out Luke in a sneak attack attempt to kill him and eliminated the remaining Jedi.

For the people who complain that this director was hemmed in by the first movie, I'd say just the opposite. He was given a big fat slow pitch right down the middle strike zone and he didn't take it. The bulk of the movie should have been Luke training Rey. Not necessarily a parroting of the ESB scenes, but training. It would have set up a relationship between Luke and Rey and made her more of a successor than a parallel event and given Luke's role more meaning. Eliminate the universe's slowest chase and cut back on the Finn (pointless) side story and it there would be more than enough time to explore it.

Yeah Adam Driver is a little to whiny for the role, but I really liked the death of Snoke scene and how it explored how tough it would be to kill an accomplished force sensitive. That Kylo could effectively mask his thoughts in the way he did was brilliant, IMO.

As noted above the movie was badly structured. It you start with Luke and Rey, and focus on that relationship and training, you get out the whole compressed time period issue. Ray trains with Luke and at some point, prior to finishing her training she goes to Kylo to try to save him. Luke warns her that she is is leaving too soon and that her actions will create a new more powerful threat but she ignores him. Luke foresees that his presence would make things worse so he stays behind. He uses a force ghost to save everyone knowing that that will kill him. A better ending for Luke's character. Eliminate the chase scene and just cut to the ice base stuff at the end. It's tighter and it is a catalyst for Ren's departure and Luke's death.

The biggest problem I see that you really have work hard to over look the obvious resolutions to the issue. What? We can use hyperdrive as a weapon? Well let's ignore that and just let the FO pick off our ships one by one. The even better one is that Force Ghost Yoda (FGY) can wield force lighting. Evil overload rising up? FGY pops in zaps him with lighting until it's game over. Kylo rises up to take his place? FGY zaps him. New and better death star-thing going to kill millions? Yep FGY pops in and zaps the controls. Easy-peasy. FGY's use of lighting was mistake. It didn't really advance the plot at all.

Overall though, it was an okay movie and perfectly watchable. Definitely could have been better though.

 

[huskypantz]

I finally saw it for the second time on Saturday. My "new" takeaways after trying to focus on the dialogue a little more:

• Luke definitely acknowledges that several jedis-in-training left the temple with Ren. I really hope they pull them into ep IX, whether they're the knights of Ren or they split up to follow the light or dark.
• Once you know what's about to happen, Snoke's statements as he's about to be sliced in two show how much power Ren has. He's a nut job, but a fairly powerful one. Snoke is reading his thoughts but of course completely misinterprets one key detail.
  
• I dislike the Rose introduction/plotline a little less. She's a symbol of what the resistance embodies - ordinary people sacrificing and showing strength and bravery in the face of insurmountable odds and oppression. The Resistance is made up of Roses - the Poes and Reys are the exception.
  
• Johnson made sure that Poe displayed some big picture vision in the "final battle" after his early shortsightedness, which sets the stage for Poe to take a larger leadership role. I guess this didn't matter much as their leadership is currently fairy decimated so he's almost a general by default.
• The Jedi will endure and Rey will be considered a Jedi in ep IX. It may not be the traditional Jedi approach, but the good force-users need a label.