Star Wars VIII [Spoilers] | Page 3 | The Boneyard

Star Wars VIII [Spoilers]

Another thing that I thought was interesting was Ren's telling of the story of the Jedi academy. IIRC, he stated that he had killed some padawans but there were 6 or so he banded with. Now the story is still foggy, but is there a group of would-be jedi who are friends with Ren roaming around? Or did he really kill them too?
 
Yeah, many questions. There was a brief mention of the Knights of Ren in The Force Awakens, but no indication of what happened to them or if any of them are still alive.
 
Not really a spoiler, but I didn't know til just now that Carrie Fisher's daughter (Billie Lourd) has a small role in both TFA and TLJ. She's one of the rebels. Not much in the way of lines but she's on screen a number of times. From the "you learn something new every day" file. You'd think that would get publicized more but I don't remember hearing anything.
 
Just saw it today. Lous editing and some weak moments, but mostly classic Star Wars fun.

Hamill was surprisingly very good. Loved his redemption. He finally gets that the struggle is endless. Then he outwits Kylo Ren in epic fashion. In the process he expands the legend of Luke Skywalker, which is essential to the rebellion.

Don’t buy that Rey’s parents were nobody. Too convenient. She looked great though.
 
Another thing that I thought was interesting was Ren's telling of the story of the Jedi academy. IIRC, he stated that he had killed some padawans but there were 6 or so he banded with. Now the story is still foggy, but is there a group of would-be jedi who are friends with Ren roaming around? Or did he really kill them too?

I'm hoping they will turn out to be the knights of Ren and show up in the next movie
 
Don’t buy that Rey’s parents were nobody. Too convenient. She looked great though.

You could be right about that.

When I was a kid, the big shocking reveal at the end of "Empire Strikes Back," I refused to believe it was true. Just thought it was Vader doing a mind job on Luke. Turned out to be true though.
 
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I was surprised there was not more of a cliffhanger at the end of TLJ. Saw the movie with my uncle who saw Empire when it came out originally and he said that many people were livid with how Empire ended because it was such an open ended ending. Thought maybe they had that in mind when they ended TLJ because it seemed like more of closure then suspense.
 
I've been spending a lot of time thinking about the movie, usually a good thing. I'm coming around on it, but need to see it again. I thought this was a good take:

https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-last-jedi-killed-my-childhood-and-thats-exactly-wh-1821429836
It's been a couple of days since I've seen TLJ and I really think this is more and more what this movie was about. Actually it's more of what the trilogy is about. It's the end of the old and on to the new. It's why they discarded all of the old novels and started their own "Canon". Most of the novels continued Luke, Leia, and Han's story and were fantastic. However, you can only go so far with them.

These movies are creating a new trio of heroes in Rey, Finn, and Poe and a new villan in Kylo Ren. It's for the next generation of fans to embrace.

It's not something many of us long term fans may want to embrace but it needed to happen. I think Luke's ending was well done and fitting. Not so sure about Han's on TFA. Unfortunately, Leia's ending may not be what she deserved due to Carrie's passing in real life. However, their time has ended in the Star Wars Galaxy and it's time for Rey, Finn, Poe, and others to continue the story.

It's taken me a few days to accept it but I'm ok with this path. I was livid when they threw the novels out the window as I read many of them and really enjoyed most. But I've come to accept this path and hope they end it well and lead to a new generation of heroes that my two little girls will come to love and embrace like I have with the original characters.
 
It's fine to move forward, hell people get old so you have no choice but to do so. That's not the issue with this film. The issue is that it is simply a bad movie that ruined one character, wasted others, and wasted a lot of time with some ridiculous plot angles. When you watch this film you come away believing that they just didn't have a set plan for this trilogy. There is no other reason to explain why they set certain things up in TFA and totally went away from them in this one. Even my kids expressed dislike for a lot of it and I never would have expected that.

This film has diminished the excitement of Star Wars for a lot of people, I am interested to see how they get it back. The Han Solo movie probably won't do that, so I am hoping that Abrams gets this thing going again in episode 9.
 
I saw it a second time yesterday and the things that bothered me the first time really didn't bother me as much the second time. The pacing definitely felt better and the movie didn't drag as much. I stopped thinking about if certain plot points made sense and just focused on what I liked. I didn't hate it like some people did the first time but a second viewing did make me enjoy it more. I hope people give it a second chance.
 
If you ever get into the novels, the Sith rule of two explains his act. There is a Sith master and apprentice. The role of the apprentice is to someday rise up and kill their master, then adopt their own apprentice. So it's kind of implied, but that's my take.

That's interesting, thanks. I've been thinking about this some more. I haven't read any of the vast amount of Star Wars novels in existence. Just based on the movies. Darth Maul didn't hang around long enough to kill Darth Sidious, but he probably wasn't clever/cunning enough to pull it off anyway. What was Count Dooku? He had to have preceded Maul. Was he an apprentice? Seemed more like an ally/co-conspirator of Sidious. He seemed like a Jedi master that turned to the Dark Side, he was far more advanced in the Jedi arts than Maul (force lightning, much stronger telekinesis). Anyway Sidious was obviously grooming Anakin for a long time, eventually he goaded Anakin into killing Dooku. Way down the road Sidious tried to goad Luke into killing Vader. Vader served Sidious faithfully for decades. Doesn't really seem like Sidious's apprentices were on board w/ the killing their master thing, but he did pit potential apprentices against the existing one. Now granted Vader did toss Sidious down a pointlessly deep shaft eventually, but that was to save his son and redeem himself and become Anakin again, not to usurp Sidious' position and power. Just my thoughts anyway. That rule of two thing doesn't seem to be followed very faithfully in the movies. Kylo taking out Snoke is the first we actually see an apprentice usurp his master.

Another thing, once Sidious died and Anakin turned away from the Dark Side, and then died shortly after that, wouldn't the Sith have ceased to exist at that point? I know the filmmakers haven't given us answers, but how did the Sith come into existence again? I wish we had more background on Snoke.
 
@nwhoopfan in ESB Vader suggested to Luke on Bespin that if they joined forces they could overthrow the emperor and rule the Galaxy as father and son.

I don't think Snoke was a sith and that is why Kylo Ren isn't a Darth
 
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A very below average Star Wars movie.

Kylo isn’t a bad guy that commands respect. Poe Dameron? More like Poe Lame-Ron.
 
That's interesting, thanks. I've been thinking about this some more. I haven't read any of the vast amount of Star Wars novels in existence. Just based on the movies. Darth Maul didn't hang around long enough to kill Darth Sidious, but he probably wasn't clever/cunning enough to pull it off anyway. What was Count Dooku? He had to have preceded Maul. Was he an apprentice? Seemed more like an ally/co-conspirator of Sidious. He seemed like a Jedi master that turned to the Dark Side, he was far more advanced in the Jedi arts than Maul (force lightning, much stronger telekinesis). Anyway Sidious was obviously grooming Anakin for a long time, eventually he goaded Anakin into killing Dooku. Way down the road Sidious tried to goad Luke into killing Vader. Vader served Sidious faithfully for decades. Doesn't really seem like Sidious's apprentices were on board w/ the killing their master thing, but he did pit potential apprentices against the existing one. Now granted Vader did toss Sidious down a pointlessly deep shaft eventually, but that was to save his son and redeem himself and become Anakin again, not to usurp Sidious' position and power. Just my thoughts anyway. That rule of two thing doesn't seem to be followed very faithfully in the movies. Kylo taking out Snoke is the first we actually see an apprentice usurp his master.

Andother thing, once Sidious died and Anakin turned away from the Dark Side, and then died shortly after that, wouldn't the Sith have ceased to exist at that point? I know the filmmakers haven't given us answers, but how did the Sith come into existence again? I wish we had more background on Snoke.

I understood the answer to this, as applied to the Jedi, to be the point of this film. Luke didn’t understand that the Light and dark of the force are eternal. By abandoning the force all he did was allow dark to grow unopposed. Snoke himself essentially said that Luke’s absence and Kylo’s Strength created an imbalance that Rey came to fill. Yoda finally showed the truth of this to Luke. At the end we see the small child who reveres Skywalker, and is an obvious force user. Somewhere else is another who will turn to the dark.

Ultimately, the force users can’t accomplish anything except to inspire regular people. It’s ordinary people who will be needed to overthrow the empires. No canon here, just my take .
 
That's interesting, thanks. I've been thinking about this some more. I haven't read any of the vast amount of Star Wars novels in existence. Just based on the movies. Darth Maul didn't hang around long enough to kill Darth Sidious, but he probably wasn't clever/cunning enough to pull it off anyway. What was Count Dooku? He had to have preceded Maul. Was he an apprentice? Seemed more like an ally/co-conspirator of Sidious. He seemed like a Jedi master that turned to the Dark Side, he was far more advanced in the Jedi arts than Maul (force lightning, much stronger telekinesis). Anyway Sidious was obviously grooming Anakin for a long time, eventually he goaded Anakin into killing Dooku. Way down the road Sidious tried to goad Luke into killing Vader. Vader served Sidious faithfully for decades. Doesn't really seem like Sidious's apprentices were on board w/ the killing their master thing, but he did pit potential apprentices against the existing one. Now granted Vader did toss Sidious down a pointlessly deep shaft eventually, but that was to save his son and redeem himself and become Anakin again, not to usurp Sidious' position and power. Just my thoughts anyway. That rule of two thing doesn't seem to be followed very faithfully in the movies. Kylo taking out Snoke is the first we actually see an apprentice usurp his master.

Another thing, once Sidious died and Anakin turned away from the Dark Side, and then died shortly after that, wouldn't the Sith have ceased to exist at that point? I know the filmmakers haven't given us answers, but how did the Sith come into existence again? I wish we had more background on Snoke.
The Darth Plagueis novel expands on your first question. The rule of two is not an absolute. It is a guide to make the sith as strong as possible. Now what palpatine did was fairly genius. He cultivated apprentices in isolated environments with the goal of seeing the strongest survive. Maul was more of an assassin than anything. Dooku was formerly a fairly powerful Jedi who turned. He was powerful but palpatine basically ensured that he'd fight anakin and the survivor would be his apprentice. He later tried the same between Vader and Luke.

About the sith, sith and Jedi have been around for several thousand years per the legends novels. And keep in mind that while all of the sith were eliminated, there are all kinds of literature and artifacts called holocrons holding their knowledge and secrets for future dark force users. The sith and Jedi are essentially gone at this point, but than doesn't have to stop light and dark force users from eventually becoming powerful and adopting the titles of their predecessors.
 
That's interesting, thanks. I've been thinking about this some more. I haven't read any of the vast amount of Star Wars novels in existence. Just based on the movies. Darth Maul didn't hang around long enough to kill Darth Sidious, but he probably wasn't clever/cunning enough to pull it off anyway. What was Count Dooku? He had to have preceded Maul. Was he an apprentice? Seemed more like an ally/co-conspirator of Sidious. He seemed like a Jedi master that turned to the Dark Side, he was far more advanced in the Jedi arts than Maul (force lightning, much stronger telekinesis). Anyway Sidious was obviously grooming Anakin for a long time, eventually he goaded Anakin into killing Dooku. Way down the road Sidious tried to goad Luke into killing Vader. Vader served Sidious faithfully for decades. Doesn't really seem like Sidious's apprentices were on board w/ the killing their master thing, but he did pit potential apprentices against the existing one. Now granted Vader did toss Sidious down a pointlessly deep shaft eventually, but that was to save his son and redeem himself and become Anakin again, not to usurp Sidious' position and power. Just my thoughts anyway. That rule of two thing doesn't seem to be followed very faithfully in the movies. Kylo taking out Snoke is the first we actually see an apprentice usurp his master.

Another thing, once Sidious died and Anakin turned away from the Dark Side, and then died shortly after that, wouldn't the Sith have ceased to exist at that point? I know the filmmakers haven't given us answers, but how did the Sith come into existence again? I wish we had more background on Snoke.
If you ever watch The Clone Wars series they discuss in depth how there can only be one master and one apprentice. Dooku was Sidious's apprentice. However, Dooku took on apprentices on a few occasions and Sidious came down on him big time in the series. Overall Sidious knew that Anakin was the most powerful Jedi and was planning on having him join him and replace Dooku as his apprentice.

I also don't think Kylo Ren is considered a Sith. So the point on whether Snoke was one is an interesting one.
 
If you ever watch The Clone Wars series they discuss in depth how there can only be one master and one apprentice. Dooku was Sidious's apprentice. However, Dooku took on apprentices on a few occasions and Sidious came down on him big time in the series. Overall Sidious knew that Anakin was the most powerful Jedi and was planning on having him join him and replace Dooku as his apprentice.

I also don't think Kylo Ren is considered a Sith. So the point on whether Snoke was one is an interesting one.
Technically, Ren can pretty much just proclaim himself a Sith I guess - it's not like there's a bar exam to pass. Same goes for Rey. But along the lines of the original point, will the Jedi and Sith continue, or will it just be force-users? From a franchise/marketing standpoint, I don't think they let go of the Jedi moniker unless they have something else planned.
 
Technically, Ren can pretty much just proclaim himself a Sith I guess - it's not like there's a bar exam to pass. Same goes for Rey. But along the lines of the original point, will the Jedi and Sith continue, or will it just be force-users? From a franchise/marketing standpoint, I don't think they let go of the Jedi moniker unless they have something else planned.
Agreed but TLJ really seemed to debunk the “legend” of the Jedi and focus on how it was more a religion then an actual thing. That basically being a force user meant you were either a Jedi or a Sith. Luke told Rey that that was not true. The force was something more then a religion.

I think how they handle this will be a truly defining moment in the Star Wars series. I got the impression that Kylo was trying to get Rey to join him in something new, not Sith vs Jedi, but just force users. I hope they do it well but as seen with TLJ, there will be a lot of people angry no matter what they do because it doesn’t fit their view of what should happen.
 
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I suspect future episodes, plural...Disney, will democratize the Force.

Unless Ep9 is packed to the gills, expect them to leave a thread for the next trilogy.
 
Having seen it a second time... I think this one will wind up better for repeat viewings than Rogue One or TFA.

I think Kylo Ren is a really, really interesting character. Like, after he kills Snoke, it's a legit question what choice he's going to make. For all the complaints about "Luke would never consider killing his nephew", I don't buy them. What he sensed in that flashback was that Ben was baby Hitler. You have to kill baby Hitler.

I'm going to get pilloried for this, but I thought the Canto Bight story needed to be expanded. It could have been better served if Finn and Rose had gone on a separate mission before the slow motion chase started. Their whole purpose is a MacGuffin anyway, so why not uncouple it from the hyperspace tracking deal? Maybe they are looking for an arms dealer to buy weapons and they run into DJ that way, then you can still have the whole disillusionment of profiting from selling to both sides. (I like the "Space Fenster" line.) Then, instead of infiltrating Snoke's capital ship, they would be tracked down on Canto Bight (or a rendez vous planet elsewhere) by Phasma and do battle there instead of being in the same place where Rey is.

I'm curious what the time gap between VII and IX will be after the very short gap from TFA to TLJ. It might be easier to handle Carrie Fisher's absence with a longer time gap and they could advance the story (give the resistance more allies, maybe some of the force sensitive kids on Canto Bight have already grown up). Given that alt-right fanboys are unhappy about the number of female characters in Ep. VIII, I really hope Abrams doubles down and adds a female Sith/ red lightsaber-wielding baddie, or maybe a Bobba Fett type, in Ep. IX. Looking forward to it.
 
Having seen it a second time... I think this one will wind up better for repeat viewings than Rogue One or TFA.

I think Kylo Ren is a really, really interesting character. Like, after he kills Snoke, it's a legit question what choice he's going to make. For all the complaints about "Luke would never consider killing his nephew", I don't buy them. What he sensed in that flashback was that Ben was baby Hitler. You have to kill baby Hitler.

I'm going to get pilloried for this, but I thought the Canto Bight story needed to be expanded. It could have been better served if Finn and Rose had gone on a separate mission before the slow motion chase started. Their whole purpose is a MacGuffin anyway, so why not uncouple it from the hyperspace tracking deal? Maybe they are looking for an arms dealer to buy weapons and they run into DJ that way, then you can still have the whole disillusionment of profiting from selling to both sides. (I like the "Space Fenster" line.) Then, instead of infiltrating Snoke's capital ship, they would be tracked down on Canto Bight (or a rendez vous planet elsewhere) by Phasma and do battle there instead of being in the same place where Rey is.

I'm curious what the time gap between VII and IX will be after the very short gap from TFA to TLJ. It might be easier to handle Carrie Fisher's absence with a longer time gap and they could advance the story (give the resistance more allies, maybe some of the force sensitive kids on Canto Bight have already grown up). Given that alt-right fanboys are unhappy about the number of female characters in Ep. VIII, I really hope Abrams doubles down and adds a female Sith/ red lightsaber-wielding baddie, or maybe a Bobba Fett type, in Ep. IX. Looking forward to it.


Sigh. People just want interesting characters. A female sith, a male sith, a wookie sith, any sith could all be cool if they were allowed to be evil, as opposed to being an emo, temper tantrum throwing kid. And we just had a Boba Fett type, the idiot director of this film appears to have gotten rid of her though. This movie is like the Patriots losing to the Browns or some such. All you can do is shake your head, maybe even laugh a bit, get back on track and move on to the next one while expecting a better result.
 
Sigh. People just want interesting characters. A female sith, a male sith, a wookie sith, any sith could all be cool if they were allowed to be evil, as opposed to being an emo, temper tantrum throwing kid. And we just had a Boba Fett type, the idiot director of this film appears to have gotten rid of her though. This movie is like the Patriots losing to the Browns or some such. All you can do is shake your head, maybe even laugh a bit, get back on track and move on to the next one while expecting a better result.

Kylo represents millenial anger towards boomers. That’s why he is interesting to some I guess.
 
Sigh. People just want interesting characters. A female sith, a male sith, a wookie sith, any sith could all be cool if they were allowed to be evil, as opposed to being an emo, temper tantrum throwing kid. And we just had a Boba Fett type, the idiot director of this film appears to have gotten rid of her though. This movie is like the Patriots losing to the Browns or some such. All you can do is shake your head, maybe even laugh a bit, get back on track and move on to the next one while expecting a better result.

These two movies are just so hopelessly curated. Stop worrying about the racial ticket punching and just make a few badass characters that command respect on the screen. Kylo is a child with a temper. The explanation for his turn is his bad moral character not Luke turning on him. He’s boring and unappealing.
 
.-.
Maybe they are looking for an arms dealer to buy weapons and they run into DJ that way, then you can still have the whole disillusionment of profiting from selling to both sides.

Forgot about that. The whole intergalactic arms dealers/profiteers thing bothered me. The rebellion in it's current state is pretty rag tag, but the New Order seems to have plenty of economic/military might. It makes zero sense that they would be buying hardware from various private parties. They would either be manufacturing it themselves, or have exclusive government contractors.

Way OT, but where does the money come from to build nearly planet sized space stations, or endless numbers of large and small space craft? The Star Wars movie universe barely touches on economics. We've seen farmers, slave traders, junkers/scrappers, career politicians, maybe a few other things. Oh, bounty hunters and mercenaries. There must be some oppressive taxation in this galaxy!
 
Forgot about that. The whole intergalactic arms dealers/profiteers thing bothered me. The rebellion in it's current state is pretty rag tag, but the New Order seems to have plenty of economic/military might. It makes zero sense that they would be buying hardware from various private parties. They would either be manufacturing it themselves, or have exclusive government contractors.

Way OT, but where does the money come from to build nearly planet sized space stations, or endless numbers of large and small space craft? The Star Wars movie universe barely touches on economics. We've seen farmers, slave traders, junkers/scrappers, career politicians, maybe a few other things. Oh, bounty hunters and mercenaries. There must be some oppressive taxation in this galaxy!
I think one problem of the new galaxy the films have created is that we don't actually know the scope of the Rebellion/First Order. My sense is that the they were a smallish rump-Empire that survived the war. They probably had to deal in black market materials, etc, for a good deal of their weapons under whatever treaties they had with the Republic, and the Republic has only just been destroyed, since there's no real gap between VII and VIII.

But this is my speculation, as a non-book reader. I shouldn't really have to speculate like that.
 
Though of prime age for original star wars movies I'm not a devoted fan, some movies I liked, some I didn't but no special feeling vs any other movies or franchise. My kids are now of prime age.
I thought the Force Awakens was great in that it did almost exactly what Creed did, revive a moribund franchise, yet still tell a franchise consistent story interweaving new and old characters.

The Last Jedi despite all I'm now reading about its break from conventions, to me was no different than the Empire Strikes back. I read no spoilers, but went in assuming the First Order has its strike back without leveling a death blow. I simply didn't see anything new happen*, I thought curmudgeon Luke was disappointing until the end & the previous breath of fresh air from the new characters was lacking. The kids liked it better than the Force Awakens which I found surprising, I was bored at times and never fully engrossed.

*the 3 surprises were ehh, 1. though Leia would die, 2. Luke 3. glad they didn't make Rey someone's daughter
 
Way OT, but where does the money come from to build nearly planet sized space stations, or endless numbers of large and small space craft? The Star Wars movie universe barely touches on economics. We've seen farmers, slave traders, junkers/scrappers, career politicians, maybe a few other things. Oh, bounty hunters and mercenaries. There must be some oppressive taxation in this galaxy!
That's not OT, the novels do a really good job delving into the economics of the empire and republic. Their multiverse is made up of the core worlds and outer rim worlds. In the legends novel, they also go the inner rim, but they're considered very unstable. In general, the empire "colonizes" various planets/systems, especially in the outer rim, and strips them of resources. They cannibalize these planets for natural resources and sometimes labor. Trade embargos are mentioned frequently as well. There is a lot of rich versus poor and political favoritism intertwined.
 
These two movies are just so hopelessly curated. Stop worrying about the racial ticket punching and just make a few badass characters that command respect on the screen. Kylo is a child with a temper. The explanation for his turn is his bad moral character not Luke turning on him. He’s boring and unappealing.
Going to have to disagree here. This is a character with real-world complexity. Clearly has ambition and motivation, both of which are used by his boss until he turns it against him. And his inner conflict is real enough that when Rey thinks she can turn him back from the path he's on, the audience believes it to - he's not predestined to be the Supreme Leader. I'm not saying where he wound up at the end of the film was unexpected - it isn't - but in the film the character's duality is played so well, it still hits the mark.

Certainly much more effective than either "You turned her against me / You have done that yourself" or Vader throwing the Emperor off a catwalk.
 
Going to have to disagree here. This is a character with real-world complexity. Clearly has ambition and motivation, both of which are used by his boss until he turns it against him. And his inner conflict is real enough that when Rey thinks she can turn him back from the path he's on, the audience believes it to - he's not predestined to be the Supreme Leader. I'm not saying where he wound up at the end of the film was unexpected - it isn't - but in the film the character's duality is played so well, it still hits the mark.

Certainly much more effective than either "You turned her against me / You have done that yourself" or Vader throwing the Emperor off a catwalk.

I basically see a pretty pathetic person. I’m not sure the audience really sees what you are describing.

Vader was actually a cool character that had tons of gravitas. Kylo Ren has less gravitas than an episode Teen Mom on MTV. There isn’t much to compare.
 
.-.

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