Star Wars VIII [Spoilers]

[Penfield]

• I'm worried that the Leia situation is going to tarnish episode 9, whether it be CGI or a bad casting decision. All we really know about Ep 9 right now is Rey vs Ren and some final battle of FO vs resistance. I hope they can add some depth to the final chapter. What path do the three episodes take us to - what were we building toward? Just don't let it drill down to a "final battle between the resistance and FO while Rey and Ren duel". If that's the best they can do with this trilogy, crap.

Carrie Fisher's family has given Disney permission to use any footage they filmed while making the two movies to use if needed in episode IX, but it really sounds like they will not be doing that. I suspect the movie will either acknowledge her passing in the crawl, or will start with a funeral or something.

This is another situation where Johnson took the more difficult path instead of the easy one. They could have simply let her die when the bridge got blown up, but he said he wanted to honor the work she did in her final role. In the end I am glad they kept her in the movie, especially since I think the Luke and Leia scene was important for the fans to get.

 

[Palatine]

Did they blow up the Death Star?

 

[Penfield]

Did they blow up the Death Star?

It was definitely better than Nü-Trek

 

[huskypantz]

Did they blow up the Death Star?

No, they went back in time and made friends with a humpback whale.

 

[UCFBfan]

So I just saw TLJ tonight and I don't know how I feel about it. I went in expecting a ESB type movie where they basically build the plot and story line. I personally find Empire to be a dull movie but I appreciate all that it does for the original trilogy. I left TLJ unsure what it really did. It built some story lines but added unneeded ones too. The Rose character had no need. What's going to happen when she heals and is all into Finn yet he and Rey clearly have some connection.

I'm also not buying fully that Rey's parents were nobodies. Kylo says that to her when he's trying to persuade her to join him and is playing on her emotions. I still believe that her true background is yet to be revealed. If I'm wrong, and this was how they revealed her parents, I'll be upset. This was a major piece of her backstory and it was just brushed aside as a mention. Hopefully there's more and Kylo was lying to her about her parents.

The one thing I really liked about the movie was the musical score. The way they wove in all of the classic themes was awesome. The best was when Luke appeared to Leia. They played the Luke and Leia song from ROTJ and then when he handed her the Star Wars equivalent of fuzzy car dice that belonged to Han, they transitioned into the Leia/Han love theme. It's was awesome. Finally, the score for the final scene with Luke dying and watching the sun (s) and playing that stirring music like they did in ANH with Luke staring at the setting sun on Tattoine was hair raising.

So what does this mean? I don't know. Is it bad that the part of the movie I liked the best was the musical score? Maybe? I guess I kinda feel lost on where I stand on the movie. Some parts were powerful and some were crap. The whole casino bit and Benicio Del Torro bit was two prequelish for me. The humor also seemed forced at times. The fact that Yoda made a joke as his first line when he appeared to Luke really took away from how powerful that scene could have been IMO.

I also agree that Carrie's passing has left them with a major issue. From what I've read, she was the focus of the final movie. Now I don't know what they do. Two more years of waiting!!

 

[UCFBfan]

Should have also added that since the Resistance is down to about 10 people, maybe in the final movie they can bring back Wedge. Besides him being one of my favorite characters, I'd love to see him and Poe fly side by side in whatever the final epic battle will be.

EDIT: Just looked him up to see how old he is (70) and didn't realize that Denis Lawson, the actor who played Wedge, is Ewan McGregor's uncle.

 

[nwhoopfan]

I saw it today. Agree w/ most of what I've seen posted here. Rey/Ren/Luke dynamic made the film worth watching. The cruiser jumping to lightspeed and tearing apart the First Order fleet was spectacular! Many of the minor characters and subplots seemed unnecessary and pointless. The First Order thwarting everything the resistance tried, usually within about 30 seconds, was frustrating. The humor was often misplaced and off putting. Some of it was bizarrely anachronistic for late 20th or early 21st century earth. Can you hear me now? and yo momma jokes? Really? That was just terrible. This film went different directions than I expected and I have no idea where Episode IX is gonna go.

 

[nwhoopfan]

I'll probably have several questions as I think about the movie, but here's one I'm curious about. Did Kylo Ren cut down Snoke to save Rey, or to usurp power? Or both? When it first happened I thought it was purely to save Rey, but as the rest of the movie transpired it became more cloudy.

Unrelated, but I was digging those imperial guards in red armor. They had something similar in the original trilogy, but those guys just kind of stood around. In this one they were fairly bad ass. They were like intergalactic samurai warriors.

 

[traitor71]

I'll probably have several questions as I think about the movie, but here's one I'm curious about. Did Kylo Ren cut down Snoke to save Rey, or to usurp power? Or both? When it first happened I thought it was purely to save Rey, but as the rest of the movie transpired it became more cloudy.

Unrelated, but I was digging those imperial guards in red armor. They had something similar in the original trilogy, but those guys just kind of stood around. In this one they were fairly bad ass. They were like intergalactic samurai warriors.

I think he did it to take over. Well, it was more like a "I'm tired of my dad yelling at me, so I am going to try and fight him" moment. I like the way he did Snoke in, but that should have been in the next film in my opinion. It's just another thing that I didn't like about it.

 

[huskypantz]

I'll probably have several questions as I think about the movie, but here's one I'm curious about. Did Kylo Ren cut down Snoke to save Rey, or to usurp power? Or both? When it first happened I thought it was purely to save Rey, but as the rest of the movie transpired it became more cloudy.

Unrelated, but I was digging those imperial guards in red armor. They had something similar in the original trilogy, but those guys just kind of stood around. In this one they were fairly bad ass. They were like intergalactic samurai warriors.

If you ever get into the novels, the Sith rule of two explains his act. There is a Sith master and apprentice. The role of the apprentice is to someday rise up and kill their master, then adopt their own apprentice. So it's kind of implied, but that's my take.

The imperial guard is another group that makes more sense if you follow the novels (canon or legends). The force is present everywhere and very strong in some (Luke, Ren, Rey) but only moderately so in others (Leia) and minimal in the rest. The strongest force users could become Jedi or Sith if properly trained (after being apprentices and padawans). But there are many with higher force sensitivity who aren't powerful enough to get to that level but are still formidable. The imperial guard are likely a group of force-sensitive soldiers who can enhance their combat skills but can't necessarily do things like shoot force lightning, move objects, read thoughts etc. So my guess is that Snoke's guard were force sensitive soldiers - hence the challenge they presented Rey and Ren. Another note of a force sensitive individual was the kid on Canto Bight who moved the broom to his hand at the end of the movie. Maybe a future padawan/jedi recruit.....

 

[huskypantz]

Another thing that I thought was interesting was Ren's telling of the story of the Jedi academy. IIRC, he stated that he had killed some padawans but there were 6 or so he banded with. Now the story is still foggy, but is there a group of would-be jedi who are friends with Ren roaming around? Or did he really kill them too?

 

[nwhoopfan]

Yeah, many questions. There was a brief mention of the Knights of Ren in The Force Awakens, but no indication of what happened to them or if any of them are still alive.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Not really a spoiler, but I didn't know til just now that Carrie Fisher's daughter (Billie Lourd) has a small role in both TFA and TLJ. She's one of the rebels. Not much in the way of lines but she's on screen a number of times. From the "you learn something new every day" file. You'd think that would get publicized more but I don't remember hearing anything.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Just saw it today. Lous editing and some weak moments, but mostly classic Star Wars fun.

Hamill was surprisingly very good. Loved his redemption. He finally gets that the struggle is endless. Then he outwits Kylo Ren in epic fashion. In the process he expands the legend of Luke Skywalker, which is essential to the rebellion.

Don’t buy that Rey’s parents were nobody. Too convenient. She looked great though.

 

[Penfield]

Another thing that I thought was interesting was Ren's telling of the story of the Jedi academy. IIRC, he stated that he had killed some padawans but there were 6 or so he banded with. Now the story is still foggy, but is there a group of would-be jedi who are friends with Ren roaming around? Or did he really kill them too?

I'm hoping they will turn out to be the knights of Ren and show up in the next movie

 

[nwhoopfan]

Don’t buy that Rey’s parents were nobody. Too convenient. She looked great though.

You could be right about that.

When I was a kid, the big shocking reveal at the end of "Empire Strikes Back," I refused to believe it was true. Just thought it was Vader doing a mind job on Luke. Turned out to be true though.

 

[UCFBfan]

I was surprised there was not more of a cliffhanger at the end of TLJ. Saw the movie with my uncle who saw Empire when it came out originally and he said that many people were livid with how Empire ended because it was such an open ended ending. Thought maybe they had that in mind when they ended TLJ because it seemed like more of closure then suspense.

 

[UCFBfan]

I've been spending a lot of time thinking about the movie, usually a good thing. I'm coming around on it, but need to see it again. I thought this was a good take:

https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-last-jedi-killed-my-childhood-and-thats-exactly-wh-1821429836

It's been a couple of days since I've seen TLJ and I really think this is more and more what this movie was about. Actually it's more of what the trilogy is about. It's the end of the old and on to the new. It's why they discarded all of the old novels and started their own "Canon". Most of the novels continued Luke, Leia, and Han's story and were fantastic. However, you can only go so far with them.

These movies are creating a new trio of heroes in Rey, Finn, and Poe and a new villan in Kylo Ren. It's for the next generation of fans to embrace.

It's not something many of us long term fans may want to embrace but it needed to happen. I think Luke's ending was well done and fitting. Not so sure about Han's on TFA. Unfortunately, Leia's ending may not be what she deserved due to Carrie's passing in real life. However, their time has ended in the Star Wars Galaxy and it's time for Rey, Finn, Poe, and others to continue the story.

It's taken me a few days to accept it but I'm ok with this path. I was livid when they threw the novels out the window as I read many of them and really enjoyed most. But I've come to accept this path and hope they end it well and lead to a new generation of heroes that my two little girls will come to love and embrace like I have with the original characters.

 

[traitor71]

It's fine to move forward, hell people get old so you have no choice but to do so. That's not the issue with this film. The issue is that it is simply a bad movie that ruined one character, wasted others, and wasted a lot of time with some ridiculous plot angles. When you watch this film you come away believing that they just didn't have a set plan for this trilogy. There is no other reason to explain why they set certain things up in TFA and totally went away from them in this one. Even my kids expressed dislike for a lot of it and I never would have expected that.

This film has diminished the excitement of Star Wars for a lot of people, I am interested to see how they get it back. The Han Solo movie probably won't do that, so I am hoping that Abrams gets this thing going again in episode 9.

 

[Penfield]

I saw it a second time yesterday and the things that bothered me the first time really didn't bother me as much the second time. The pacing definitely felt better and the movie didn't drag as much. I stopped thinking about if certain plot points made sense and just focused on what I liked. I didn't hate it like some people did the first time but a second viewing did make me enjoy it more. I hope people give it a second chance.

 

[nwhoopfan]

If you ever get into the novels, the Sith rule of two explains his act. There is a Sith master and apprentice. The role of the apprentice is to someday rise up and kill their master, then adopt their own apprentice. So it's kind of implied, but that's my take.

That's interesting, thanks. I've been thinking about this some more. I haven't read any of the vast amount of Star Wars novels in existence. Just based on the movies. Darth Maul didn't hang around long enough to kill Darth Sidious, but he probably wasn't clever/cunning enough to pull it off anyway. What was Count Dooku? He had to have preceded Maul. Was he an apprentice? Seemed more like an ally/co-conspirator of Sidious. He seemed like a Jedi master that turned to the Dark Side, he was far more advanced in the Jedi arts than Maul (force lightning, much stronger telekinesis). Anyway Sidious was obviously grooming Anakin for a long time, eventually he goaded Anakin into killing Dooku. Way down the road Sidious tried to goad Luke into killing Vader. Vader served Sidious faithfully for decades. Doesn't really seem like Sidious's apprentices were on board w/ the killing their master thing, but he did pit potential apprentices against the existing one. Now granted Vader did toss Sidious down a pointlessly deep shaft eventually, but that was to save his son and redeem himself and become Anakin again, not to usurp Sidious' position and power. Just my thoughts anyway. That rule of two thing doesn't seem to be followed very faithfully in the movies. Kylo taking out Snoke is the first we actually see an apprentice usurp his master.

Another thing, once Sidious died and Anakin turned away from the Dark Side, and then died shortly after that, wouldn't the Sith have ceased to exist at that point? I know the filmmakers haven't given us answers, but how did the Sith come into existence again? I wish we had more background on Snoke.

 

[Penfield]

@nwhoopfan in ESB Vader suggested to Luke on Bespin that if they joined forces they could overthrow the emperor and rule the Galaxy as father and son.

I don't think Snoke was a sith and that is why Kylo Ren isn't a Darth

 

[ZooCougar]

A very below average Star Wars movie.

Kylo isn’t a bad guy that commands respect. Poe Dameron? More like Poe Lame-Ron.

 

[HuskyHawk]

That's interesting, thanks. I've been thinking about this some more. I haven't read any of the vast amount of Star Wars novels in existence. Just based on the movies. Darth Maul didn't hang around long enough to kill Darth Sidious, but he probably wasn't clever/cunning enough to pull it off anyway. What was Count Dooku? He had to have preceded Maul. Was he an apprentice? Seemed more like an ally/co-conspirator of Sidious. He seemed like a Jedi master that turned to the Dark Side, he was far more advanced in the Jedi arts than Maul (force lightning, much stronger telekinesis). Anyway Sidious was obviously grooming Anakin for a long time, eventually he goaded Anakin into killing Dooku. Way down the road Sidious tried to goad Luke into killing Vader. Vader served Sidious faithfully for decades. Doesn't really seem like Sidious's apprentices were on board w/ the killing their master thing, but he did pit potential apprentices against the existing one. Now granted Vader did toss Sidious down a pointlessly deep shaft eventually, but that was to save his son and redeem himself and become Anakin again, not to usurp Sidious' position and power. Just my thoughts anyway. That rule of two thing doesn't seem to be followed very faithfully in the movies. Kylo taking out Snoke is the first we actually see an apprentice usurp his master.

Andother thing, once Sidious died and Anakin turned away from the Dark Side, and then died shortly after that, wouldn't the Sith have ceased to exist at that point? I know the filmmakers haven't given us answers, but how did the Sith come into existence again? I wish we had more background on Snoke.

I understood the answer to this, as applied to the Jedi, to be the point of this film. Luke didn’t understand that the Light and dark of the force are eternal. By abandoning the force all he did was allow dark to grow unopposed. Snoke himself essentially said that Luke’s absence and Kylo’s Strength created an imbalance that Rey came to fill. Yoda finally showed the truth of this to Luke. At the end we see the small child who reveres Skywalker, and is an obvious force user. Somewhere else is another who will turn to the dark.

Ultimately, the force users can’t accomplish anything except to inspire regular people. It’s ordinary people who will be needed to overthrow the empires. No canon here, just my take .

 

[huskypantz]

That's interesting, thanks. I've been thinking about this some more. I haven't read any of the vast amount of Star Wars novels in existence. Just based on the movies. Darth Maul didn't hang around long enough to kill Darth Sidious, but he probably wasn't clever/cunning enough to pull it off anyway. What was Count Dooku? He had to have preceded Maul. Was he an apprentice? Seemed more like an ally/co-conspirator of Sidious. He seemed like a Jedi master that turned to the Dark Side, he was far more advanced in the Jedi arts than Maul (force lightning, much stronger telekinesis). Anyway Sidious was obviously grooming Anakin for a long time, eventually he goaded Anakin into killing Dooku. Way down the road Sidious tried to goad Luke into killing Vader. Vader served Sidious faithfully for decades. Doesn't really seem like Sidious's apprentices were on board w/ the killing their master thing, but he did pit potential apprentices against the existing one. Now granted Vader did toss Sidious down a pointlessly deep shaft eventually, but that was to save his son and redeem himself and become Anakin again, not to usurp Sidious' position and power. Just my thoughts anyway. That rule of two thing doesn't seem to be followed very faithfully in the movies. Kylo taking out Snoke is the first we actually see an apprentice usurp his master.

Another thing, once Sidious died and Anakin turned away from the Dark Side, and then died shortly after that, wouldn't the Sith have ceased to exist at that point? I know the filmmakers haven't given us answers, but how did the Sith come into existence again? I wish we had more background on Snoke.

The Darth Plagueis novel expands on your first question. The rule of two is not an absolute. It is a guide to make the sith as strong as possible. Now what palpatine did was fairly genius. He cultivated apprentices in isolated environments with the goal of seeing the strongest survive. Maul was more of an assassin than anything. Dooku was formerly a fairly powerful Jedi who turned. He was powerful but palpatine basically ensured that he'd fight anakin and the survivor would be his apprentice. He later tried the same between Vader and Luke.

About the sith, sith and Jedi have been around for several thousand years per the legends novels. And keep in mind that while all of the sith were eliminated, there are all kinds of literature and artifacts called holocrons holding their knowledge and secrets for future dark force users. The sith and Jedi are essentially gone at this point, but than doesn't have to stop light and dark force users from eventually becoming powerful and adopting the titles of their predecessors.