OT: Speaking of GOATS

[pacific 44]

Wouldn't want to be in a headlock with Nolan mad at me. (George Brett charged the mound and had this very situation happen.)

 

[Zanzman]

Wouldn't want to be in a headlock with Nolan mad at me. (George Brett charged the mound and had this very situation happen.)

Was that Brett or Robin Ventura

 

[McFly]

My choice: Walter Johnson! However, for pitchers in my era, my favorite is :The Big Unit, aka Randy Johnson! One of the most intimidating pitchers of all time!

You want intimidating? Ryne Duren, with his 100 MPH fastball and Coke bottle lens eyeglasses, would always have one sail half way up the screen while warming up. NOBODY dug in the batter's box against him.

My father, who was much more of an aficionado than I, told me that Babe Ruth, if he never picked up a bat, would have made the HOF as a pitcher.

 

[baggerbob]

You want intimidating? Ryne Duren, with his 100 MPH fastball and Coke bottle lens eyeglasses, would always have one sail half way up the screen while warming up. NOBODY dug in the batter's box against him.

My father, who was much more of an aficionado than I, told me that Babe Ruth, if he never picked up a bat, would have made the HOF as a pitcher.

Walter Johnson who most of his career played on a poor team yet won 400+ games.

 

[Ozimoto]

Surprised no one mentioned one of the greatest left handed pitchers of all time, Lefty Grove.

"One of the greatest pitchers in history, Grove led the American League in wins in four separate seasons, in strikeouts seven years in a row, and had the league's lowest earned run average a record nine times. Over the course of the three years from 1929 to 1931, he twice won the pitcher's Triple Crown, leading the league in wins, strikeouts, and ERA, while amassing a 79–15 record and leading the Athletics to three straight AL championships.[1] Overall, Grove won 300 games in his 17-year MLB career. He was elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame in 1947."

Admittedly, he didn't pitch in the "modern" era, but he certainly was one of baseball's greatest.

 

[Happydad745]

Fastest player to 2500 points/1000 rebounds, in the WNBA....Stewie!

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Many, many great pitchers. Digging "way back" - Denton True Young aka Cyclone. Often mentioned with Johnson (Walter) from the early years. Christy Mathewson. Lefty Grove was a great one, as noted. But the list is so, so long, through the era of Whitey Ford and his contemporaries (which included Paige and Spahn). Then Gibson, Koufax, and on to Ryan and his contemporaries.

I have argued for years - about all sports - that there are very few cases where you can state that someone is the GOAT of all time. Baseball managers, anyone??? Best hitter??? In a game that changed over the years and continues to change.

I have said the same about Women's Basketball. And to show you what I mean - I'll make it simple - DT or Stewart? NBA - they discuss on PTI, I don't actually follow it, but Bill Russell or Magic - or Michael - or . . . It is never 100% clear.

What you can do in any sport is come close to a "greatest of their era" and a short list of possible "GOAT"s. But, answering the question, impossible.

 

[JordyG]

Although Seaver and(Randy) Johnson are considered by most to be better pitchers than Ryan I would add two things. One, when batters are asked who they'd rather face between Seaver and Ryan most would pick Seaver. Second, when comparing personalities few would choose Seaver or Johnson over the unpretentious, soft spoken, polite and gentlemanly Ryan.

 

[HuskyNan]

Joan Joyce. Pick your sport.

 

[oldude]

Joan Joyce. Pick your sport.

I grew up in Stratford watching Joan Joyce and the Raybestos Brakettes win one national championship after another. There were two other great pitchers on that team with Joyce: Bertha Tickey & Donna Lopiano. It was not uncommon to see some combination of the 3 throw no-hitters in both ends of a weekend doubleheader.

 

[ClifSpliffy]

four thousand, six hundred and seventy two strike outs. take that, ryan.
7 time cy young winner, spanning 3 decades. take that, seaver.
league MVP, world series champ.
over 20,000 batters faced in his career.
best broken bat thrower, ever.

354-184. take that, everyone else.
(and oh, Mariano The Great - and no one even close for firemen. period.)
what you got?

 

[Zanzman]

four thousand, six hundred and seventy two strike outs. take that, ryan.
7 time cy young winner, spanning 3 decades. take that, seaver.
league MVP, world series champ.
over 20,000 batters faced in his career.
best broken bat thrower, ever.

354-184. take that, everyone else.
(and oh, Mariano The Great - and no one even close for firemen. period.)
what you got?

Don’t forget his steroid use led to at least a couple of those CY youngs

 

[JordyG]

Don’t forget his steroid use led to at least a couple of those CY youngs

Well today's pitchers don't need steroids to cheat. They cheat in other ways. Today it's all about spin rate which increases ball movement. Sports science has consistently shown that a 100 mph fastball is easier to hit than a 93 mph fastball with a high spin rate. Almost every major league pitcher is doing something to increase his spin rate and MLB is turning a blind eye to this type of cheating. Instead they're looking to lower the mound again or some such to slow the dominance of today's pitchers. Ridiculous. So to those that say Clemens records were due to steroid use I say phooey.

 

[JordyG]

four thousand, six hundred and seventy two strike outs. take that, ryan.
7 time cy young winner, spanning 3 decades. take that, seaver.
league MVP, world series champ.
over 20,000 batters faced in his career.
best broken bat thrower, ever.

354-184. take that, everyone else.
(and oh, Mariano The Great - and no one even close for firemen. period.)
what you got?

I thought he was a horses ass, but if I can like other horses asses like snooty Tom and surly Johnson I can acknowledge this guys greatness.

 

[oldude]

Well today's pitchers don't need steroids to cheat. They cheat in other ways. Today it's all about spin rate which increases ball movement. Sports science has consistently shown that a 100 mph fastball is easier to hit than a 93 mph fastball with a high spin rate. Almost every major league pitcher is doing something to increase his spin rate and MLB is turning a blind eye to this type of cheating. Instead they're looking to lower the mound again or some such to slow the dominance of today's pitchers. Ridiculous. So to those that say Clemens records were due to steroid use I say phooey.

How is a pitcher with a high spin rate cheating?

 

[JordyG]

How is a pitcher with a high spin rate cheating?

They're using foreign substances on the ball to increase their spin rate.

 

[JordyG]

How is a pitcher with a high spin rate cheating?

In the old days pitchers used foreign substances to make their curve or slider move more. Others used it to decrease movement. Nowadays pitchers use it to increase the spin on their fastball, which makes it jump, dip, dive, or move in or out at the last minute.

 

[oldude]

They're using foreign substances on the ball to increase their spin rate.

You mean like rosin, which is in a bag on every mound in baseball, and it’s legal?

If you really want to reduce spin rates across baseball, there is an easy way. Cut down the seams on baseballs.

 

[JordyG]

You mean like rosin, which is in a bag on every mound in baseball, and it’s legal?

If you really want to reduce spin rates across baseball, there is an easy way. Cut down the seams on baseballs.

No. Today's pitchers want to increase their grip on the ball which induces better spin, and rosin isn't nearly as effective as these new substances. Now, the oldtime spitball pitchers wanted to decrease the spin so that the ball was more susceptible to air currents, somewhat like a knuckleball. A guy like Gerrit Cole literally increased his spin rate over night once he went to Houston, and that can't be done without cheating. In fact, an increase in spin rate was noted by every Houston pitcher, especially Justin Verlander, once they came to Houston. That team was cheating on so many levels it was ridiculous.

 

[oldude]

No. Today's pitchers want to increase their grip on the ball which induces better spin, and rosin isn't nearly as effective as these new substances. Now, the oldtime spitball pitchers wanted to decrease the spin so that the ball was more susceptible to air currents, somewhat like a knuckleball. A guy like Gerrit Cole literally increased his spin rate over night once he went to Houston, and that can't be done without cheating. In fact, an increase in spin rate was noted by every Houston pitcher, especially Justin Verlander, once they came to Houston. That team was cheating on so many levels it was ridiculous.

OK, but whatever substance a pitcher may or may not use, the grip on the baseball’s seams is the key element in both spinning a ball and controlling location.

You may be aware that prior to the start of the season, MLB advised all major league teams that the umpires will be monitoring pitchers for use of foreign substances including confiscating baseballs and sending them to MLB’s testing lab. Pitchers found to be using foreign substances will be fined and/or suspended. Managers, coaches and other personnel from offending teams are also subject to fine and/or suspension. I know you probably think that won’t stop the use of foreign substances. I guess we’ll see.

One additional thought to ponder. Spin rates are one aspect of pitcher dominance in baseball today. Another is velocity, which is up across baseball. Velocity has nothing to do with a foreign substance, unless we’re talking about steroids.

 

[JordyG]

OK, but whatever substance a pitcher may or may not use, the grip on the baseball’s seams is the key element in both spinning a ball and controlling location.

You may be aware that prior to the start of the season, MLB advised all major league teams that the umpires will be monitoring pitchers for use of foreign substances including confiscating baseballs and sending them to MLB’s testing lab. Pitchers found to be using foreign substances will be fined and/or suspended. Managers, coaches and other personnel from offending teams are also subject to fine and/or suspension. I know you probably think that won’t stop the use of foreign substances. I guess we’ll see.

One additional thought to ponder. Spin rates are one aspect of pitcher dominance in baseball today. Another is velocity, which is up across baseball. Velocity has nothing to do with a foreign substance, unless we’re talking about steroids.

Agreed. Velocity is up. But again, it's been clearly shown that triple figure fastballs are easier to hit than a low 90's fastball with a high spin rate. The problem is these new substances are so high tech they'll be difficult to find. Unless of course like the Olympic Committee storing athletes blood into perpetuity, MLB intends to hold on to those balls for 10 years or so and wait for analytical techniques to catch up. Nevertheless, the combination of high spin rate and high velocity is deadly.

 

[ClifSpliffy]

wow. that last discussion here on 'spin rate' was not only informative, but fascinating too. i don't know too much aboot it, but it does feel like a growing topic. st paul of the bronx talks 'seeing the dot' (smaller the better!) a lot lately on his yankee broadcasts, when he analyzes a pitch.
(hears 'cash' on increased spin rate by certain 'undetectable substances', ands heads out to the workshop to see what's kicking around the shelves...where's that spectrophotometer again?)

 

[Bigboote]

Although Seaver and(Randy) Johnson are considered by most to be better pitchers than Ryan I would add two things. One, when batters are asked who they'd rather face between Seaver and Ryan most would pick Seaver. Second, when comparing personalities few would choose Seaver or Johnson over the unpretentious, soft spoken, polite and gentlemanly Ryan.

The question I ask, is, If you needed someone to start a win-or-die game, whom would you choose? I've been following baseball for much of the last 50 years, so I can only make an educated choice from that time. Among those I'd choose before Ryan, assuming somewhere near the peaks of their careers (I acknowledge that Ryan's peak was longer than most), just off the top of my head and very incomplete:

Greg Maddux
Bob Gibson
Pedro Martinez
Roger Clemens
Juan Marichal

Speaking of longevity: Maddux had 15 wins 17 years in a row, including a strike-shortened season. For much of that time he was just one of the best pitchers in baseball, for probably five years, he was absolutely the best.

 

[ClifSpliffy]

The question I ask, is, If you needed someone to start a win-or-die game, whom would you choose? I've been following baseball for much of the last 50 years, so I can only make an educated choice from that time. Among those I'd choose before Ryan, assuming somewhere near the peaks of their careers (I acknowledge that Ryan's peak was longer than most), just off the top of my head and very incomplete:

Greg Maddux
Bob Gibson
Pedro Martinez
Roger Clemens
Juan Marichal

Speaking of longevity: Maddux had 15 wins 17 years in a row, including a strike-shortened season. For much of that time he was just one of the best pitchers in baseball, for probably five years, he was absolutely the best.

yes! maddux was truly great!
and 15 wins is degrom's highest ever win total! once!
will he get the nobel peace prize if he ever does it again? amazin!

 

[JordyG]

The question I ask, is, If you needed someone to start a win-or-die game, whom would you choose? I've been following baseball for much of the last 50 years, so I can only make an educated choice from that time. Among those I'd choose before Ryan, assuming somewhere near the peaks of their careers (I acknowledge that Ryan's peak was longer than most), just off the top of my head and very incomplete:

Greg Maddux
Bob Gibson
Pedro Martinez
Roger Clemens
Juan Marichal

Speaking of longevity: Maddux had 15 wins 17 years in a row, including a strike-shortened season. For much of that time he was just one of the best pitchers in baseball, for probably five years, he was absolutely the best.

I would still take Seaver over Maddux and Koufax over Marichal.