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So What Happens to BE Football if . . .

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the basketball onlys add value as a whole, but if you break it down you guys are missing what the value is. you may ask, what the heck does shu bring to the table wise? how is it any value? etc. the bbally onlys brings value becuase of matchups. nova/gtown/sju/nd/marq bring good markets for the league as well. those 5 bring value in tv mk's, good to great bball, good to great fanbases for bball and lastly them playing fball schools ='s good games. why? those schools matter on a national scene and are competitive so a nova-uconn game means espn on monday night for the usa to watch ='s tv$$$$$. thats what the bball onlys bring, those 5 schools can bring the conf more "bigtime matchups" for the season. shu is in a overlaping mk with a crapy program. prov hasn't been around in years. depaul is brutal but has a huge market.

lets look at it based on a uconn sch. /tcuruty/usf/dep/shu/prov are not big time last year bball wise,everyone else was competitive. ruty/usf while not competitive still bring better audiences that bad bball onlys. anyway
league 1-BE as of today 18 game sch-round robin plus 2
league2- play everyone twice h&a 16 games sch-uconn/cuse/ruty/pitt/wvu/lville/cincy/usf/tcu
1- uconn h&a games-cuse/pitt/lville/usf/gtown/marq/shu/dep/extra game 2 and ruty/wvu/cincy/nd/nova/sju/prov/tcu/extra game 1
so for league 1 uconn plays 10(plus 2 random extra games which are hit or miss-usually 1 will be bigtime, 2 on a rare year...) "big time" or "tv $" type games
league 2 uconn plays 10 "bigtime games" whith no wildcard extra games.
those extra 1-2 games a year are the value $$$ of the bball onlys as a whole. now if you drop shu/dep/prov and add 3 fball's and atleast 1 of them is good bball, then the value goes up!
 
upstater said:
Yes, that's my point. Welcome to the future.
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So you're point is thaat basketball only conferences can't compete?

Butler, Gonzaga, VCU, Xavier, etc have all been successful recently without the aid of football.

To say name brand programs like. Nova and Geoergetown would fade into oblivion without the association with the likes of Rutgers football is ridiculous.
 
The eastern catholic basketball schools, as a league, would be miles ahead of the SEC and Pac Ten in terms of prestige, markets, history and ability. They are a major conference and are not going anywhere in any realignment. No matter how many times people here say the opposite.
 
ConnHuskBask said:
So you're point is thaat basketball only conferences can't compete?

Butler, Gonzaga, VCU, Xavier, etc have all been successful recently without the aid of football.

To say name brand programs like. Nova and Geoergetown would fade into oblivion without the association with the likes of Rutgers football is ridiculous.
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Yep. That's my point. VCU? Really now? Xavier? Wha? These are midmajors.

The money in these new TV contracts dwarfs anything we've seen before. The BE football teams are about the go from the poorhouse to the penthouse. The league is going from $30 million a year to $150-200 million a year. $2-3 million for the football schools to $15 million.

What do you think the upshot is if a school like UConn, which pours $10-$15 million from the academic side into sports, suddenly has an extra $15 million to kick around? It's flush with cash at that point. What happens to the recruiting budget? Facilities? Coaching? TV visibility?

Put it this way: do Ledo and Dunn commit to Providence if they know they are not going to be on TV and that the school is hardpressed for cash?

There is going to be a universe of difference between BCS conference basketball and mid-majors in the near future. It's not going to be pretty.
 
We shall see. The BE is going to break-up. I'd put money down on it. It will happen within the next 10 years.
 
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upstater said:
Yep. That's my point. VCU? Really now? Xavier? Wha? These are midmajors.

The money in these new TV contracts dwarfs anything we've seen before. The BE football teams are about the go from the poorhouse to the penthouse. The league is going from $30 million a year to $150-200 million a year. $2-3 million for the football schools to $15 million.

What do you think the upshot is if a school like UConn, which pours $10-$15 million from the academic side into sports, suddenly has an extra $15 million to kick around? It's flush with cash at that point. What happens to the recruiting budget? Facilities? Coaching? TV visibility?

Put it this way: do Ledo and Dunn commit to Providence if they know they are not going to be on TV and that the school is hardpressed for cash?

There is going to be a universe of difference between BCS conference basketball and mid-majors in the near future. It's not going to be pretty.
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You are lumping football money with hoops money and saying we have tons more. We do, but it's going to be spent on football. They will get the same amounts for hoops money as other major conferences, and there games will be on TV because if you think Miss State vs. Clemson really will have more national interest than St Johns vs. Marquette I don't know what to tell you.

And belittling Xavier is nuts. It's been a Top 30 program for ten years, in terms of results and attendance. It is light years ahead of 3 of the 9 Big East football schools (RU, USF and TCU) and is in a range with Cincy. It's not Syracuse, Pitt, UConn, LV or WVU but no other league in the country has five teams like those. You can't compare the Catholics to the Big East football schools -- compare them to all the other major conferences as well.
 
businesslawyer said:
You are lumping football money with hoops money and saying we have tons more. We do, but it's going to be spent on football. They will get the same amounts for hoops money as other major conferences, and there games will be on TV because if you think Miss State vs. Clemson really will have more national interest than St Johns vs. Marquette I don't know what to tell you.

And belittling Xavier is nuts. It's been a Top 30 program for ten years, in terms of results and attendance. It is light years ahead of 3 of the 9 Big East football schools (RU, USF and TCU) and is in a range with Cincy. It's not Syracuse, Pitt, UConn, LV or WVU but no other league in the country has five teams like those. You can't compare the Catholics to the Big East football schools -- compare them to all the other major conferences as well.
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Xavier doesn't do anything for me. What I'm saying is that there will be MORE of a divide than there is now. Because of the money.

If you're bleeding $15 million a year, you're scrimping everywhere. You are scrimping on basketball, on football, etc. Heck, Jim Calhoun makes $2 million while others are making $3.5 million. Basketball would see more money undoubtedly.

Look at schools like Va. Tech--they were nowhere with their basketball prior to joining a BCS conference. Compare them to DePaul. I'm just not impressed by any of the A10 schools. In fact, with Xavier in specific, that school gets a lot of leeway for being at the top of the conference, but they continually underperform during the OOC season in the Fall and then beat up on A10 scrubs. 6 losses in the OOC, including one to Bellarmine. Then they get into conference play and lose once last year. Same thing the prior year. 5 losses OOC, and 2 in the conference.

I don't see St. john's-Marquette (after they've been out of the BE for 5 years) as being all that enthralling either.
 
upstater said:
Xavier doesn't do anything for me. What I'm saying is that there will be MORE of a divide than there is now. Because of the money.

If you're bleeding $15 million a year, you're scrimping everywhere. You are scrimping on basketball, on football, etc. Heck, Jim Calhoun makes $2 million while others are making $3.5 million. Basketball would see more money undoubtedly.

Look at schools like Va. Tech--they were nowhere with their basketball prior to joining a BCS conference. Compare them to DePaul. I'm just not impressed by any of the A10 schools. In fact, with Xavier in specific, that school gets a lot of leeway for being at the top of the conference, but they continually underperform during the OOC season in the Fall and then beat up on A10 scrubs. 6 losses in the OOC, including one to Bellarmine. Then they get into conference play and lose once last year. Same thing the prior year. 5 losses OOC, and 2 in the conference.

I don't see St. john's-Marquette (after they've been out of the BE for 5 years) as being all that enthralling either.
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1. St Johns and Marquette are big-market teams that played games on television before there was a Big East.

2. The money involved today for football is multiples of what it was 20 years ago. And yet, basketball onlies, and bad football but good basketball schools, are no worse off for that than they were.

3. Just one season ago Xavier was in the Sweet 16, losing a great OT game, and but for the strangest call to end a game anyone has ever seen (on a par with this year's BET game) beat national finalist Butler at Butler. I think they can live with you being unimpressed.
 
businesslawyer said:
1. St Johns and Marquette are big-market teams that played games on television before there was a Big East.

2. The money involved today for football is multiples of what it was 20 years ago. And yet, basketball onlies, and bad football but good basketball schools, are no worse off for that than they were.

3. Just one season ago Xavier was in the Sweet 16, losing a great OT game, and but for the strangest call to end a game anyone has ever seen (on a par with this year's BET game) beat national finalist Butler at Butler. I think they can live with you being unimpressed.
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1. 30 years ago? Marquette fell off the map in the CUSA. They were rescued.
2. The new TV contracts just kicked in within the year. The BE doesn't even have such a new contract, and in fact, for the football schools, they've seen no increase. Despite what people have said about Hathaway, it shouldn't be lost on UConn fans that part of his penny-pinching ways may have had something to do with his bosses frowning on subsidizing UConn sports. There's going to be a sea change in the UConn AD with the next TV contract. The difference between football and bb-only schools is about to grow exponentially.
3. Uh-huh. Sweet 16 appearance? That's what qualifies? I can go down a list of schools that hardly ever appear on Tv and who lost at the buzzer in the Sweet16.
 
upstater said:
Put it this way: do Ledo and Dunn commit to Providence if they know they are not going to be on TV and that the school is hardpressed for cash?

There is going to be a universe of difference between BCS conference basketball and mid-majors in the near future. It's not going to be pretty.
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I agree with you for the most part, but I think you're understating the value of the Big East basketballs in terms of tv markets alone:

You don't think an Eastern Catholic league is going to be on TV? A league with teams in Chicago, New York, Philadelphia, and Milwaukee?

The same forces that are at work in college football are at work in college basketball. There's a lot of channels and no where near enough content. Basketball is still a valuable commodity and the Big East basketball schools are a different animal entirely than the rest of the mid major programs. Let's put it this way. The amount of cash a school like PC is going to get in the future isn't going to go down when they leave the Big East.

If it were purely about the extra money athletic departments get from football the SEC would be on par, in basketball, with the Big East instead of the WCC or the A-10.
 
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upstater said:
1. 30 years ago? Marquette fell off the map in the CUSA. They were rescued.
2. The new TV contracts just kicked in within the year. The BE doesn't even have such a new contract, and in fact, for the football schools, they've seen no increase. Despite what people have said about Hathaway, it shouldn't be lost on UConn fans that part of his penny-pinching ways may have had something to do with his bosses frowning on subsidizing UConn sports. There's going to be a sea change in the UConn AD with the next TV contract. The difference between football and bb-only schools is about to grow exponentially.
3. Uh-huh. Sweet 16 appearance? That's what qualifies? I can go down a list of schools that hardly ever appear on Tv and who lost at the buzzer in the Sweet16.
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Marquette made the Final 4 in 2003. Before the Big East.

Xavier doesn't "do it for you"? What does that even meaan? They've been elite 8s recentyl and in the tourney every year.
 
IMind said:
I agree with you for the most part, but I think you're understating the value of the Big East basketballs in terms of tv markets alone:

You don't think an Eastern Catholic league is going to be on TV? A league with teams in Chicago, New York, Philadelphia, and Milwaukee?

The same forces that are at work in college football are at work in college basketball. There's a lot of channels and no where near enough content. Basketball is still a valuable commodity and the Big East basketball schools are a different animal entirely than the rest of the mid major programs. Let's put it this way. The amount of cash a school like PC is going to get in the future isn't going to go down when they leave the Big East.

If it were purely about the extra money athletic departments get from football the SEC would be on par, in basketball, with the Big East instead of the WCC or the A-10.
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We have those teams now, look at our basketball contract. Now imagine UConn, Syracuse, Louisville, Pitt, etc., no longer affiliated with those schools.

PC's money will go down if they leave the BE.
 
upstater said:
We have those teams now, look at our basketball contract. Now imagine UConn, Syracuse, Louisville, Pitt, etc., no longer affiliated with those schools.

PC's money will go down if they leave the BE.
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Yes.. if they "leave". The absolute best position for PC long term is if we end up with a 12/20 league.. and they are in the Big East... what I mean is an Eastern Catholic league is a fairly valuable commodity and I doubt their take will go down over what it is today no matter what league they end up in. (Unless Villanova/Georgetown, etc. get sick of carrying them too and kick them out of the new Eastern basketball league.)
 
ConnHuskBask said:
So you're point is thaat basketball only conferences can't compete?

Butler, Gonzaga, VCU, Xavier, etc have all been successful recently without the aid of football.

To say name brand programs like. Nova and Geoergetown would fade into oblivion without the association with the likes of Rutgers football is ridiculous.
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The fact that a few individual schools have made it to the Final Four doesn't mprove that a basketball only league can succeed. And indeed, none have. Not one. Look at the A-10. it has programs in comparable cities to the Big East. Programs with good tradition. Can't succeed. name me a mid-major conference, not a one off team somewhere, that has competed at this level. Who was the last national champ, not Final four participant...that can be just luck in a 1 and done event, but last national champion from a mid-major conference? Maybe UNLV in 1990. Yes, on occassion a mid-major team makes a run. But reading it as more than it is the success of an individual program's success is a huge mistake.
 
freescooter said:
The fact that a few individual schools have made it to the Final Four doesn't mprove that a basketball only league can succeed. And indeed, none have. Not one. Look at the A-10. it has programs in comparable cities to the Big East. Programs with good tradition. Can't succeed. name me a mid-major conference, not a one off team somewhere, that has competed at this level. Who was the last national champ, not Final four participant...that can be just luck in a 1 and done event, but last national champion from a mid-major conference? Maybe UNLV in 1990. Yes, on occassion a mid-major team makes a run. But reading it as more than it is the success of an individual program's success is a huge mistake.
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If you really, reall think you can compare the history, tradition and resources of LaSalle, Fordham, GW and Rhodey to, in the same markets, 'Nova, St. Johns, Georgetown and Providence there is no point in this discussion. We both know you are a bright guy. Does your background in public institutions make you less friendly to religious ones? Do you have a blind spot on this? You are taking a 100% doubt free position that does not make sense.

No one is saying a Big East Catholic league is as good as a Big East football league in hoops. No one. But to dismiss the basketball onlies compared to the SEC, or the Pac Ten, and to dismiss them as just the A-Ten but for their alliance with us, is absurd. Among other reasons, when the Big East started, and made its splash into the Big Time, it was a conference of schools that didn't play big time football. Of the first 8 members, 6 didn't. And, as someone else said, for all the football money 'Bama and USC and Nebraska make, where has that made them basketball powers?
 
businesslawyer said:
If you really, reall think you can compare the history, tradition and resources of LaSalle, Fordham, GW and Rhodey to, in the same markets, 'Nova, St. Johns, Georgetown and Providence there is no point in this discussion. We both know you are a bright guy. Does your background in public institutions make you less friendly to religious ones? Do you have a blind spot on this? You are taking a 100% doubt free position that does not make sense.

No one is saying a Big East Catholic league is as good as a Big East football league in hoops. No one. But to dismiss the basketball onlies compared to the SEC, or the Pac Ten, and to dismiss them as just the A-Ten but for their alliance with us, is absurd. Among other reasons, when the Big East started, and made its splash into the Big Time, it was a conference of schools that didn't play big time football. Of the first 8 members, 6 didn't. And, as someone else said, for all the football money 'Bama and USC and Nebraska make, where has that made them basketball powers?
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Again, name me a non-football affiliated conference that has been able to compete year in year out. You can't because they can't do it. the world has changed since 1979. You couldn't put together a basketball conference today like the Big East of that time. In part it is about content, and the football schools provide it for the entire tv season...Labor day to St Patricks Day. that alone is one reaosn they are getting such high dollars. You can make a single deal and fill your content needs for the entire tv season. The Catholic League, if you want to call it that, can't do that. So right away they are at a disadvantage. As far as 'Bama and USC, in large part they aren't as successful because they never really focussed on basketball. It simply isn't that important. But if you look at some schools who have increased its priority, as Texas and Tennessee have, they have been much more successful. Florida has and won 2 national championships. I'm pretty comfortable that a league with the Big East basketball onlies and a couple of others wouldn't be much more than a high mid-major in a relatively few years. they wouldn't have the viewership, they wuldn't have the marketing power. Maybe the A-10 is a bit of an exaggeration, though not too much. Depite having teams during the late 90s and early 2000s that were ranked near the top, Temple for several years during the Chaney years and St Joes for a few years, and UMass during the Calipari years,Xavier and Temple more recently, it has never been able to make the step up to major status. Nor has a single other "mid-major" conference.
 
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freescooter said:
Again, name me a non-football affiliated conference that has been able to compete year in year out. You can't because they can't do it. the world has changed since 1979. You couldn't put together a basketball conference today like the Big East of that time. In part it is about content, and the football schools provide it for the entire tv season...Labor day to St Patricks Day. that alone is one reaosn they are getting such high dollars. You can make a single deal and fill your content needs for the entire tv season. The Catholic League, if you want to call it that, can't do that. So right away they are at a disadvantage. As far as 'Bama and USC, in large part they aren't as successful because they never really focussed on basketball. It simply isn't that important. But if you look at some schools who have increased its priority, as Texas and Tennessee have, they have been much more successful. Florida has and won 2 national championships. I'm pretty comfortable that a league with the Big East basketball onlies and a couple of others wouldn't be much more than a high mid-major in a relatively few years. they wouldn't have the viewership, they wuldn't have the marketing power. Maybe the A-10 is a bit of an exaggeration, though not too much. Depite having teams during the late 90s and early 2000s that were ranked near the top, Temple for several years during the Chaney years and St Joes for a few years, and UMass during the Calipari years,Xavier and Temple more recently, it has never been able to make the step up to major status. Nor has a single other "mid-major" conference.
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Well, in all likelihood we will know soon enough. I suggest you save this thread.
 
BL, all other comparisons aside, at the time of the formation of the BE, LaSalle could claim to have bneen the equal to any of the other Big Five and being left out of not only the BE (Nova) but also the A-10 (Temple & St Joe's), and being relegated to a third tier (MAAC) conference is what killed them. By the time they were able to get into the A-10 (more than a decade after St Joe's) it was too late.
 
By the 70s, my recollection is Nova had far surpassed LaSalle as a year-in year-out basketball program. From the (erased) final four run with Porter and Siemientowski forward, I don't think LaSalle was on that level.

I understand that there was a time that LaSalle was better, and I understand that LaSalle was badly hurt by the way the rush to conferences in the northeast played out, but with all due respect I will elect to stand by my earlier statement.
 
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