So What Happens to BE Football if . . .

[mets1090]

I'm not even sure if you're being serious or not...Do you really think Brooklyn and Queens are on Long Island? lol.

It's tough to mess this stuff up when wikipedia exists and is right at your fingertips as you talk in this forum...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Island

 

[ZooCougar]

Except for Georgetown and Nova. The basketball schools are parasites.

 

[Adios]

Uh, ConnHuskBask, Brooklyn and Queens are on Long Island. Are you having a geographic moment?

That's what I was thinking.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

So, you are insinuating that if the Big East had kicked out Villanova, Georgetown, St. John's etc. at the time of the raid, that BC, Miami and VT would have stayed?

The Big East is, and always will be susceptible to a raid because as a collective whole our football schools have less value to networks than the other conferences. It has nothing to do with the basketball schools as some say "bringing down our value". In fact, without having the best basketball conference our already small tv contracts would be even smaller.

I'd still love to hear how the Basketball only schools somehow bring down our value. From anyone.

Well, you are wrong. They would be very relevant, particularly if they added Xavier and Butler. In case you weren't paying attention, starting in 2006 with George Mason, there have been quite a few non-football schools sending teams to the Final Four. Football is not necessary to compete in basketball. And with the explosion of TV rights agreements, a conference of big city basketball teams with lots of tradition is going to get a big TV deal.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Thinking about expansion candidates if we need to add one or two teams. I think there is a consensus that ECU, UCF and Memphis are pretty much worthless. There is some interest in Houston because it used to be in a major conference and it has a huge market. Even if the Big East gets a huge payday, BCU and Maryland are probably not leaving the ACC. The Big East doesn't want to add numbers just to add numbers because that could hurt the league down the road if Super-conferences actually happen. Lean and nimble is good.

I have always thought that Temple as football only was attractive if Villanova didn't upgrade, and there is no chance of Villanova upgrading now. I would not completely discount UMass in a year, if WVU leaves. Make them a probationary member for 5 years or something, make them buy into the league, have them clean the bathrooms, whatever you want them to do, they will effectively be pledges. This gives us an in with Massachusetts and Boston, and would be easy to extricate from if Superconferences happen. If someone can tell me the difference in national perception between UCF and UMass? 90% of casual fans won't know that one is in a mid-major and one is upgrading from FCS. They will know that UCF is a compass school from Florida, while UMass is the anchor campus of the UMass university system.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

What are you talking about? I'm agreeing that the basketball schools add value.

Also, no kidding BK and Queens are techinically on Long Island. My point was that you were trying to marganilize St Johns by simply. Referring to it as being "on Long Island" when its moreso referred to as a borough of NYC.

Seton Hall adds value, because it is part of the bball onlies-which is all or nothing.

The 8 hoops schools definitely add value to our contracts, and its all or nothing with Them. No PC means to GTown etc.

 

[upstater]

The basketball schools would become a glorified version of the Atlantic 10. Lucky to be Temple, actually.

 

[EdgewoodNHV]

I don't know how everybody has the patience to keep speculating on this stuff through all the rumors and innuendos and ever-changing landscape of college football. Dreaming up all of these scenarios that will almost certainly not come into play. I get why it interests people, but I just don't have the endurance for all of the endless analysis and discussion without any action.

 

[upstater]

I don't know how everybody has the patience to keep speculating on this stuff through all the rumors and innuendos and ever-changing landscape of college football. Dreaming up all of these scenarios that will almost certainly not come into play. I get why it interests people, but I just don't have the endurance for all of the endless analysis and discussion without any action.

I'm not sure you can say it's been dreamed up. The BE is practically on record as having invited 3 B12 schools into the league. They've met with other conference commissioners. Beyond that, the link I provided from the Northwestern poster is coming from someone definitely connected to the B10 offices. He posted and mentioned Nebraska's invitation LONG before Nebraska was mentioned as a candidate anywhere. In the very first days that Missouri was mentioned as a B10 candidate, he threw cold water on it, said never, and that Nebraska would start playing B10 football in a year. I also think he was used by the B10 office to provide all sorts of misinformation meant to pressure Notre Dame.

We're seeing this again right now. Oklahoma is leaking about the Pac-10 to pressure teams into moving, Texas is talking about the ACC in order to pressure the Pac10 or Big10, the SEC is mentioning WV to shake loose Missouri and to prevent any legal action from the Big12, etc.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

The basketball schools would become a glorified version of the Atlantic 10. Lucky to be Temple, actually.

LOL. Temple hasn't made a final 4 in 50 years.

 

[upstater]

LOL. Temple hasn't made a final 4 in 50 years.

Yes, that's my point. Welcome to the future.

 

[Dann]

the basketball onlys add value as a whole, but if you break it down you guys are missing what the value is. you may ask, what the heck does shu bring to the table wise? how is it any value? etc. the bbally onlys brings value becuase of matchups. nova/gtown/sju/nd/marq bring good markets for the league as well. those 5 bring value in tv mk's, good to great bball, good to great fanbases for bball and lastly them playing fball schools ='s good games. why? those schools matter on a national scene and are competitive so a nova-uconn game means espn on monday night for the usa to watch ='s tv$$$$$. thats what the bball onlys bring, those 5 schools can bring the conf more "bigtime matchups" for the season. shu is in a overlaping mk with a crapy program. prov hasn't been around in years. depaul is brutal but has a huge market.

lets look at it based on a uconn sch. /tcuruty/usf/dep/shu/prov are not big time last year bball wise,everyone else was competitive. ruty/usf while not competitive still bring better audiences that bad bball onlys. anyway
league 1-BE as of today 18 game sch-round robin plus 2
league2- play everyone twice h&a 16 games sch-uconn/cuse/ruty/pitt/wvu/lville/cincy/usf/tcu
1- uconn h&a games-cuse/pitt/lville/usf/gtown/marq/shu/dep/extra game 2 and ruty/wvu/cincy/nd/nova/sju/prov/tcu/extra game 1
so for league 1 uconn plays 10(plus 2 random extra games which are hit or miss-usually 1 will be bigtime, 2 on a rare year...) "big time" or "tv $" type games
league 2 uconn plays 10 "bigtime games" whith no wildcard extra games.
those extra 1-2 games a year are the value $$$ of the bball onlys as a whole. now if you drop shu/dep/prov and add 3 fball's and atleast 1 of them is good bball, then the value goes up!

 

[ConnHuskBask]

Yes, that's my point. Welcome to the future.

So you're point is thaat basketball only conferences can't compete?

Butler, Gonzaga, VCU, Xavier, etc have all been successful recently without the aid of football.

To say name brand programs like. Nova and Geoergetown would fade into oblivion without the association with the likes of Rutgers football is ridiculous.

 

[businesslawyer]

The eastern catholic basketball schools, as a league, would be miles ahead of the SEC and Pac Ten in terms of prestige, markets, history and ability. They are a major conference and are not going anywhere in any realignment. No matter how many times people here say the opposite.

 

[upstater]

So you're point is thaat basketball only conferences can't compete?

Butler, Gonzaga, VCU, Xavier, etc have all been successful recently without the aid of football.

To say name brand programs like. Nova and Geoergetown would fade into oblivion without the association with the likes of Rutgers football is ridiculous.

Yep. That's my point. VCU? Really now? Xavier? Wha? These are midmajors.

The money in these new TV contracts dwarfs anything we've seen before. The BE football teams are about the go from the poorhouse to the penthouse. The league is going from $30 million a year to $150-200 million a year. $2-3 million for the football schools to $15 million.

What do you think the upshot is if a school like UConn, which pours $10-$15 million from the academic side into sports, suddenly has an extra $15 million to kick around? It's flush with cash at that point. What happens to the recruiting budget? Facilities? Coaching? TV visibility?

Put it this way: do Ledo and Dunn commit to Providence if they know they are not going to be on TV and that the school is hardpressed for cash?

There is going to be a universe of difference between BCS conference basketball and mid-majors in the near future. It's not going to be pretty.

 

[upstater]

We shall see. The BE is going to break-up. I'd put money down on it. It will happen within the next 10 years.

 

[businesslawyer]

Yep. That's my point. VCU? Really now? Xavier? Wha? These are midmajors.

The money in these new TV contracts dwarfs anything we've seen before. The BE football teams are about the go from the poorhouse to the penthouse. The league is going from $30 million a year to $150-200 million a year. $2-3 million for the football schools to $15 million.

What do you think the upshot is if a school like UConn, which pours $10-$15 million from the academic side into sports, suddenly has an extra $15 million to kick around? It's flush with cash at that point. What happens to the recruiting budget? Facilities? Coaching? TV visibility?

Put it this way: do Ledo and Dunn commit to Providence if they know they are not going to be on TV and that the school is hardpressed for cash?

There is going to be a universe of difference between BCS conference basketball and mid-majors in the near future. It's not going to be pretty.

You are lumping football money with hoops money and saying we have tons more. We do, but it's going to be spent on football. They will get the same amounts for hoops money as other major conferences, and there games will be on TV because if you think Miss State vs. Clemson really will have more national interest than St Johns vs. Marquette I don't know what to tell you.

And belittling Xavier is nuts. It's been a Top 30 program for ten years, in terms of results and attendance. It is light years ahead of 3 of the 9 Big East football schools (RU, USF and TCU) and is in a range with Cincy. It's not Syracuse, Pitt, UConn, LV or WVU but no other league in the country has five teams like those. You can't compare the Catholics to the Big East football schools -- compare them to all the other major conferences as well.

 

[upstater]

You are lumping football money with hoops money and saying we have tons more. We do, but it's going to be spent on football. They will get the same amounts for hoops money as other major conferences, and there games will be on TV because if you think Miss State vs. Clemson really will have more national interest than St Johns vs. Marquette I don't know what to tell you.

And belittling Xavier is nuts. It's been a Top 30 program for ten years, in terms of results and attendance. It is light years ahead of 3 of the 9 Big East football schools (RU, USF and TCU) and is in a range with Cincy. It's not Syracuse, Pitt, UConn, LV or WVU but no other league in the country has five teams like those. You can't compare the Catholics to the Big East football schools -- compare them to all the other major conferences as well.

Xavier doesn't do anything for me. What I'm saying is that there will be MORE of a divide than there is now. Because of the money.

If you're bleeding $15 million a year, you're scrimping everywhere. You are scrimping on basketball, on football, etc. Heck, Jim Calhoun makes $2 million while others are making $3.5 million. Basketball would see more money undoubtedly.

Look at schools like Va. Tech--they were nowhere with their basketball prior to joining a BCS conference. Compare them to DePaul. I'm just not impressed by any of the A10 schools. In fact, with Xavier in specific, that school gets a lot of leeway for being at the top of the conference, but they continually underperform during the OOC season in the Fall and then beat up on A10 scrubs. 6 losses in the OOC, including one to Bellarmine. Then they get into conference play and lose once last year. Same thing the prior year. 5 losses OOC, and 2 in the conference.

I don't see St. john's-Marquette (after they've been out of the BE for 5 years) as being all that enthralling either.

 

[businesslawyer]

Xavier doesn't do anything for me. What I'm saying is that there will be MORE of a divide than there is now. Because of the money.

If you're bleeding $15 million a year, you're scrimping everywhere. You are scrimping on basketball, on football, etc. Heck, Jim Calhoun makes $2 million while others are making $3.5 million. Basketball would see more money undoubtedly.

Look at schools like Va. Tech--they were nowhere with their basketball prior to joining a BCS conference. Compare them to DePaul. I'm just not impressed by any of the A10 schools. In fact, with Xavier in specific, that school gets a lot of leeway for being at the top of the conference, but they continually underperform during the OOC season in the Fall and then beat up on A10 scrubs. 6 losses in the OOC, including one to Bellarmine. Then they get into conference play and lose once last year. Same thing the prior year. 5 losses OOC, and 2 in the conference.

I don't see St. john's-Marquette (after they've been out of the BE for 5 years) as being all that enthralling either.

1. St Johns and Marquette are big-market teams that played games on television before there was a Big East.

2. The money involved today for football is multiples of what it was 20 years ago. And yet, basketball onlies, and bad football but good basketball schools, are no worse off for that than they were.

3. Just one season ago Xavier was in the Sweet 16, losing a great OT game, and but for the strangest call to end a game anyone has ever seen (on a par with this year's BET game) beat national finalist Butler at Butler. I think they can live with you being unimpressed.

 

[Yonick]

This is where you lost me! BC would pull in the Boston Market?

I believe this Boston Market reference pertains to the fast food chicken joint(s)

 

[upstater]

1. St Johns and Marquette are big-market teams that played games on television before there was a Big East.

2. The money involved today for football is multiples of what it was 20 years ago. And yet, basketball onlies, and bad football but good basketball schools, are no worse off for that than they were.

3. Just one season ago Xavier was in the Sweet 16, losing a great OT game, and but for the strangest call to end a game anyone has ever seen (on a par with this year's BET game) beat national finalist Butler at Butler. I think they can live with you being unimpressed.

1. 30 years ago? Marquette fell off the map in the CUSA. They were rescued.
2. The new TV contracts just kicked in within the year. The BE doesn't even have such a new contract, and in fact, for the football schools, they've seen no increase. Despite what people have said about Hathaway, it shouldn't be lost on UConn fans that part of his penny-pinching ways may have had something to do with his bosses frowning on subsidizing UConn sports. There's going to be a sea change in the UConn AD with the next TV contract. The difference between football and bb-only schools is about to grow exponentially.
3. Uh-huh. Sweet 16 appearance? That's what qualifies? I can go down a list of schools that hardly ever appear on Tv and who lost at the buzzer in the Sweet16.

 

[IMind]

Put it this way: do Ledo and Dunn commit to Providence if they know they are not going to be on TV and that the school is hardpressed for cash?

There is going to be a universe of difference between BCS conference basketball and mid-majors in the near future. It's not going to be pretty.

I agree with you for the most part, but I think you're understating the value of the Big East basketballs in terms of tv markets alone:

You don't think an Eastern Catholic league is going to be on TV? A league with teams in Chicago, New York, Philadelphia, and Milwaukee?

The same forces that are at work in college football are at work in college basketball. There's a lot of channels and no where near enough content. Basketball is still a valuable commodity and the Big East basketball schools are a different animal entirely than the rest of the mid major programs. Let's put it this way. The amount of cash a school like PC is going to get in the future isn't going to go down when they leave the Big East.

If it were purely about the extra money athletic departments get from football the SEC would be on par, in basketball, with the Big East instead of the WCC or the A-10.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

1. 30 years ago? Marquette fell off the map in the CUSA. They were rescued.
2. The new TV contracts just kicked in within the year. The BE doesn't even have such a new contract, and in fact, for the football schools, they've seen no increase. Despite what people have said about Hathaway, it shouldn't be lost on UConn fans that part of his penny-pinching ways may have had something to do with his bosses frowning on subsidizing UConn sports. There's going to be a sea change in the UConn AD with the next TV contract. The difference between football and bb-only schools is about to grow exponentially.
3. Uh-huh. Sweet 16 appearance? That's what qualifies? I can go down a list of schools that hardly ever appear on Tv and who lost at the buzzer in the Sweet16.

Marquette made the Final 4 in 2003. Before the Big East.

Xavier doesn't "do it for you"? What does that even meaan? They've been elite 8s recentyl and in the tourney every year.

 

[upstater]

I agree with you for the most part, but I think you're understating the value of the Big East basketballs in terms of tv markets alone:

You don't think an Eastern Catholic league is going to be on TV? A league with teams in Chicago, New York, Philadelphia, and Milwaukee?

The same forces that are at work in college football are at work in college basketball. There's a lot of channels and no where near enough content. Basketball is still a valuable commodity and the Big East basketball schools are a different animal entirely than the rest of the mid major programs. Let's put it this way. The amount of cash a school like PC is going to get in the future isn't going to go down when they leave the Big East.

If it were purely about the extra money athletic departments get from football the SEC would be on par, in basketball, with the Big East instead of the WCC or the A-10.

We have those teams now, look at our basketball contract. Now imagine UConn, Syracuse, Louisville, Pitt, etc., no longer affiliated with those schools.

PC's money will go down if they leave the BE.

 

[IMind]

We have those teams now, look at our basketball contract. Now imagine UConn, Syracuse, Louisville, Pitt, etc., no longer affiliated with those schools.

PC's money will go down if they leave the BE.

Yes.. if they "leave". The absolute best position for PC long term is if we end up with a 12/20 league.. and they are in the Big East... what I mean is an Eastern Catholic league is a fairly valuable commodity and I doubt their take will go down over what it is today no matter what league they end up in. (Unless Villanova/Georgetown, etc. get sick of carrying them too and kick them out of the new Eastern basketball league.)